Were we prepared?

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AuthorTopic: Were we prepared?
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #75
Oh, stop proselytizing, Ben. You didn't really address any of the points I made, which concerned the authenticity and veracity of the Bible as a historical document. Your arguments basically boil down to: the Bible is right because it says it is. This is a very circular argument that doesn't hold water. Not that we haven't already established this about n^nth times...
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #76
I had a conversation once with a biblical scholar while in college. He had access to copies of some of the original documents and was able to read them in the original languages. I'm not sure if he ever published his work, but the thing I still remember after all these years is that many important things were dropped at each translation. Originally this was due to the inability to accurately convey the message while translating, mostly because of differences between Hebrew and Greek. Then it was purposeful when translated to Latin, as many of the gospels contained contradictory messages. Finally, the translation into English corrupted it further by adding some moral statements which hadn't existed before.

By way of example, he pointed out that many of the original characters were female due to the matriarchal nature of society in that area. This was at odds with both Greek and Roman society, so it was changed. Female nouns became male nouns, with all the inherent subtexts associated with them.

I find the bible to be a fascinating document, it is a 2000 year old document which contains the oral histories of another 6-8000 years. It is however corrupt by nature if it is intended to be a holy book, as it wasn't written by or through a higher power. Imagine if each US president was able to re-write the constitution according to their wishes. We would not have the same thing today as existed in 1778.

*this message funded by the roaming historical revisionist society*
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #77
Well, there was no Constitution in 1778. So there's one thing we don't have to worry about!

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
desperance.net - We're Everywhere
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You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
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Profile Homepage #78
Salmon: we do have Bibles written in Greek from the Late Empire (third or fourth century) that have been translated into English and published in well-known forms. They differ from the King James in only a few meaningful ways. The papyrus that turns up from earlier, though, presents another interesting problem. Textual criticism of the Bible is fascinating, because it's so controversial and problematic.

More significant to the average person, really, is that you have to be a little bit of a classical scholar just to understand the Bible. The Book of John, for instance, begins with some verses that seem incoherent unless you know that the "word" that it's talking about is actually "logos" in Greek, which had a set of meanings far more elaborate than "word" does in English, and also that it was a central part of Stoic philosophy. This sort of thing is all over the Bible, issues of context and just a completely different vocabulary in Greek from our vocabulary in English.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
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Drakey - :P :mad:

Kel - this conversation was in 1986. You are far closer in terms of recollection than I, and it exactly terms like logos that I am refering to.

*this message sponsored by the bonk Drakey with a rubber mallet club*
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #80
I found that the NRSV was probably closest to the Greek. Still, I'm pretty certain that no one really has a good bead on "logos."

I agree with the need for some amount of classical scholarship even to begin being able to understand the historical background of the document. What boggles my mind, though, is why these details are almost never taught in church. The answer I've gotten to that inquiry most often is that those details aren't important to the faith.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Agent
Member # 2210
Profile #81
I am very suspicious when people start quoting passages of the bible. What happens is a group of people get together with a similar view of the world take a small piece of it and then try to dissect it into tiny bits. They take these tiny bits then try and force you to accept their view of worlds by making funny quotes out of context.

John said X, Paul said X. For the most part, I have found most of them to be ignorant of both the history of the time period, and ignorant of the document as a whole. This is true of most who come proselytizing to my door with various religious texts.

Very simply, I ask you this. Have you read the document from beginning to end or is it impossible for you to sit down and read it without trying to pick at and interpret every statement being made. Can you put aside what is being fed to you and read it as it is without turning to your pastor or priest and saying father I do not understand this you must tell me what this means. I know it may be huge and sweeping but do this and you will understand more than most people do.

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Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh.

Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight.
Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Agent
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quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

I had a conversation once with a biblical scholar while in college. He had access to copies of some of the original documents and was able to read them in the original languages. I'm not sure if he ever published his work, but the thing I still remember after all these years is that many important things were dropped at each translation. Originally this was due to the inability to accurately convey the message while translating, mostly because of differences between Hebrew and Greek. Then it was purposeful when translated to Latin, as many of the gospels contained contradictory messages. Finally, the translation into English corrupted it further by adding some moral statements which hadn't existed before.

By way of example, he pointed out that many of the original characters were female due to the matriarchal nature of society in that area. This was at odds with both Greek and Roman society, so it was changed. Female nouns became male nouns, with all the inherent subtexts associated with them.

I find the bible to be a fascinating document, it is a 2000 year old document which contains the oral histories of another 6-8000 years. It is however corrupt by nature if it is intended to be a holy book, as it wasn't written by or through a higher power. Imagine if each US president was able to re-write the constitution according to their wishes. We would not have the same thing today as existed in 1778.

I disagree with your sentiment, we still have hundreds if not thousands of original documents dating as far back as 250BC. And the documents we have from 250BC are almost precisely the same as those dated 1000 years later. Your biblical scholar is not the only person able to read these manuscripts. They have been poured over by thousands upon thousands of other scholars and are available for the commonfolk to pour over as well(with many translation tools available it is not as impossible as it once was). I will not disagree that some minor things have changed and that some meanings were not conveyed precisely but nothing important to one's salvation. Anyone who is serious about delving into the scriptures can easily enough find an original document and compare for themselves.

As for being historically correct, I challenge anyone to find one historical instance in the Bible that can be proved to be false. Just incase you feel like going to look I will leave you with a quote:
quote:
The archaeologist Nelson Glueck said,
"as a matter of fact, however, it may be stated categorically that no archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical reference. Scores of archaeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or in exact detail historical statements in the Bible. And, by the same token, proper evaluation of Biblical descriptions have often led to amazing discoveries."


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"Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05

"Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #83
It pleases me that we can agree that historical references within the bible are accurately portrayed. As I said, it captures oral histories spanning thousands of years.

What I personally take issue with is that the explanations for events (ie. causes) are attributed to something other than natural events. The knowledge and understanding we possess today far exceeds that of 2000 years ago, and as such there is no need to cling to notions of tidal surges being examples of the hand of god. It is quaint to do so, and serves the purposes of religious leaders, but in the end it is just story telling.

*this message sponsored by causality in plagues - the rational approach*
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #84
I think it depends how simplistically you play the Bible-versus-archaeology game. There's lots of evidence against literal six day creation, global flood, or Joshua stopping the sun. There's decent amounts of evidence for creation of the universe ex nihilo, epochal floods in the Middle East, and walls collapsing at Jericho (several times in its history, I understand). As odds-on favorite contender for most remarkable human document of all time, the Bible stands alone. As literally inerrant supernatural oracle, it doesn't stand.

Whether you accept it as an indirect communication from the ultimate transhuman intelligence seems to me to be quite independent of this last issue, though. A creator of the universe would surely be at least as sophisticated as the subtlest human authors. If the Bible is a divine revelation, the option not to have it appear on titanium plates cast down from the sky already seems to indicate a subtle approach.

EDIT: But Salmon, the God of the monotheistic religions is supposed to be the proprietor of natural law. A tidal surge that came at just the right time could still be the hand of God, even if no violations of natural law were involved at all.

[ Thursday, July 21, 2005 14:08: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #85
According to the Church (before it was Catholic), using saints as a relay to God was perfectly reasonable. I don't know what the Vatican has said on the subject recently, but kindly do not apply your brand of faith to questions about other denominations.

quote:
Originally posted by Ben[b]

quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

Muslims and Jews can say equally insulting things to Christians and be just as correct. By 'not acceptable,' what do you mean? Aren't you taught to be loving and accepting of all God's children?
Their religion is not compatible to what God says. They are still acceptable to God, given they turn to him.
[/b]

Unless you're denying the Old Testament, Jews are doing what God says far more literally than Christians are. I know less about Islam, but the Koran is also what God says. You're exactly as right as the other religions for exactly the same reasons.

Note that the Old Testament is the word of God. The New Testament is the word of humans. As far as I know, none of it is even written by Jesus himself. It's all secondhand at best.

Actually, forgive my ignorance of the New Testament here, but what makes Jesus so inarguably not a minion of Satan using powers gained by consorting with demons to produce "miracles" to lead the faithful astray? Did God ever verify with His own Voice, complete with Extra Capital Letters, the status of His Son? If not, the New Testament seems very flimsy to me. It's written by humans about a human with no corroboration. Maybe all those warnings about sorcerers in Leviticus aren't so much wasted ink after all!

[Edit: ""]

—Alorael, who recalls that Omlette could provide a fair amount of evidence supporting a global flood. There's also a fair amount against it, too, so take it as you will. Anyway, most of the most spectacular events in the Bible would leave no archaeological evidence anyway. The sun stopping, the parting of the Sea of Reeds, people turning into pillars of salt, and all the rest are all impossible to prove or disprove.

[ Thursday, July 21, 2005 14:15: Message edited by: Electorael ]
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #86
It's all in the interpretation by the human observer.
In the desert there are plants adapted to grow immediately following a rain, and could apparently "spring from nothingness."

The world-wide flood may have been a localized one-time event, but far more likely it was oral history accumulating thousands of years of observations of cataclysmic flooding. Remembering that civilization sprang up around rivers and harbors, any rise in sea level would have indeed been catastrophic. Indian tradition points to flooding events as well, so it is likely that this is an example of many individual floods over thousands of years that have become one flood.
Given the strong evidence of the "ancients" paying close attention to solar cycles, it is likely that a person could indeed predict a complete eclipse with excellent accuracy. It would take a strong will to deny that the predicting agent did not in fact cause the event to happen.

Edit - SoT, that is where I have a fundamental problem with religion (not spirituality.) Any diligent observer of a little understood phenomena could claim to have the backing of "God" if they successfully predict an event and use that prediction to alter the course of history. Fully explored, it turns into a cyclical argument ala chickens and eggs. Very unsatisfying.

*this message sponsored by the boring chamber of commerce*

[ Thursday, July 21, 2005 14:23: Message edited by: Jumpin' Salmon ]
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #87
quote:
Originally written by Electorael:

Did God ever verify with His own Voice, complete with Extra Capital Letters, the status of His Son?
Um, yes. Matthew 3: 16-17.

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Sex is easier than love.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #88
quote:
Originally written by Electorael:

Unless you're denying the Old Testament, Jews are doing what God says far more literally than Christians are. I know less about Islam, but the Koran is also what God says. You're exactly as right as the other religions for exactly the same reasons.

No, the Koran is what Allah says.

Note that the Old Testament is the word of God. The New Testament is the word of humans. As far as I know, none of it is even written by Jesus himself. It's all secondhand at best.

Both testaments are actually the word of humans, as either testimony from eyewitness accounts, letters, or words coming directly from God or Jesus.

—Alorael, who recalls that Omlette could provide a fair amount of evidence supporting a global flood. There's also a fair amount against it, too, so take it as you will. Anyway, most of the most spectacular events in the Bible would leave no archaeological evidence anyway. The sun stopping, the parting of the Sea of Reeds, people turning into pillars of salt, and all the rest are all impossible to prove or disprove.

Do you know if there was evidence found directly refuting something said in the Bible? While I agree with you here, it seems that as archaeology and the such progresses, so does evidence for the Bible.



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-ben4808

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #89
quote:
Originally written by The Ghost of Jewels:

we still have hundreds if not thousands of original documents dating as far back as 250BC.
I don't disbelieve you, but what's your source on this? I'm interested in the textual status of the Bible, and I can't say I've found any really good scholarly information, just introductions to different Bibles. I know it's out there; I just don't know where to look.

My understanding was that the papyri prior to the third or fourth century AD was extremely fragmentary (and usually in the wrong language, i.e. Old Testament in Greek). Our good codices don't show up any earlier, as far as I know, than around the third or fourth century — and again, in Greek.

I mean, the Bible doesn't have nearly as many textual issues as, say, Catullus, but there are still some problems.

Oh and Ben, surely you've learned your lesson about trying to differentiate between "God" and "Allah" at this point? The words mean the same thing. One is English, and the other is Arabic. That's like trying to say, "No, Roman Catholicism as practiced in Mexico is what Dios says."

[ Thursday, July 21, 2005 17:20: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
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Ash: Yeah, that's pretty clear... but how do you know it wasn't Satan pretending to be God? Okay, I'll stop now.

Ben: The Koran is what God says according to those who follow it, and saying "Allah" is not God makes as much sense as saying Adonai doesn't mean God, or Dios doesn't mean God. They do. They're literally words meaning God in different languages.

The Old Testament is wholly or partially, depending on how literally you take Exodus, dictation by God to Moses. (Did Moses write "Moses died" along with everything else? God must have had a mean streak.) The New Testament is not.

Yes, there is evidence directly refuting the Bible. Pi is a transcendental number usually approximated as 3.14. Pi is not 3!

[Edit: Pi isn't 4 either, but that's irrelevant.]

—Alorael, who is sure archaeologists have found evidence against other specific passages of the Bible. The problem is that while archaeologists can find evidence that's there, they can't find evidence of what didn't happen. Finding nothing means either it didn't happen or there's no evidence to be found, so it's not conclusive. You can only find positives.

[ Thursday, July 21, 2005 17:28: Message edited by: Electorael ]
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
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quote:
Originally written by Electorael:

The Old Testament is wholly or partially, depending on how literally you take Exodus, dictation by God to Moses. (Did Moses write "Moses died" along with everything else? God must have had a mean streak.) The New Testament is not.
Uh... I hope you meant the Torah, not the Old Testament in it's entirety.

quote:
Originally written by Electorael:

Yes, there is evidence directly refuting the Bible. Pi is a transcendental number usually approximated as 3.14. Pi is not 3!
If I recall correctly, that passage concerns the dimensions of a couple of holes, yes? Holes which are described as 'round' and not as 'perfectly geometrically circular', again, IIRC. Of course, that's beside the point. Pi may not be 3, but then, it's not 3.14 either. Are you suggesting that the book of Numbers should actually be nothing but? :P Maybe Noah's Ark was actually 400.0381936134 cubits high (or whatever it is). I don't think that hurts the 'accuracy' of the Bible, though. So it ain't legal document/mathematical equation accurate, but if it was it would be unreadable.

EDIT: Kel, I'm a bit fuzzy on the history of biblical manuscripts, but I think Jewels was referring to the Dead Sea Scrolls, which I'd imagine you've heard of.

I'd also comment that Allah does not necessarily = YHWH, which is what I imagine Ben means when he says 'God'. You could theoretically believe that one man was the ancestor of the rest of humanity (minus his wife) without believing that man was Adam.

EDIT 2: Bowls, not holes. IDNRC, apparently.

[ Thursday, July 21, 2005 18:06: Message edited by: Ash Lael ]

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Sex is easier than love.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Electric Sheep One
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Profile #92
Actually it would be pretty hard to predict solar eclipses, because the moon only just covers the sun from Earth, so it has to hit close to dead-on, and the orbit of the moon is nasty, because the moon is strongly affected by both the Earth and the sun. There's a simple sort of a cycle saying how often the possibility of an eclipse comes up, but saying whether or not one will actually occur, let alone be visible from a given location, is just beyond ancient computation. It's no joke today.

Anyway, I don't know of any religious claims that have ever been based on predictions of solar eclipses. For large-scale Biblical miracles, I think you've got your Red Sea (or Sea of Reeds?), your walls of Jericho, a sun stopping for Joshua, and a shadow moving backward for Isaiah (I think?). On the Christian side there's one episode of mid-day darkness, a storm blowing out quickly, and a modest tremor. These are either essentially impossible, or miraculous only in timing.

The sun stopping would leave collossal evidence, since arresting the rotation of the Earth is only the least catastrophic way of doing it. That would have produced global tsunamis. It would probably also have left visible damage to fragile ancient mineral formations in caves. At least as disturbing, to faith in the literal accuracy of this purported miracle, is the fact that the Bible itself cites another book, now lost, as an authority for the story: it makes it sound suspiciously second-hand.

The value of pi implicit in the two Biblical descriptions of Solomon's big golden bowl is 3.0. No biggie if you figure they rounded to one figure, or if you allow that the bowl wasn't really all that round, or that they measured an outer diameter and inner perimeter of a thick bowl ... In other words, no problem at all if you expect a reasonable human account from that period, huge problem if you want literal inerrancy unto geometric detail.

The coolest claim I've heard about this, though, is one I'd love to hear assessed by a rabbi. I was told once that the two scriptural descriptions of that same bowl differ in one word, and that the numerical values of the two alternative words are 355 and 113. Noo-noo noo-noo ... unless this is hooey, of course.

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It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Agent
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Profile Homepage #93
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

quote:
Originally written by The Ghost of Jewels:

we still have hundreds if not thousands of original documents dating as far back as 250BC.
I don't disbelieve you, but what's your source on this?

It does depend on if you're talking about the OT or the NT. I will start with
this source though it is really just a compilation of facts from other soures.

There are 24,000 partial and complete copies of the NT, with 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers, enough so to make an almost complete copy of the NT just from them. (I have posted these stats before but maybe you were less active then.)

The Dead Sea Scrolls are the earliest scripture documents we have. Most are indeed fragments but the complete book of Isiah was found. This website dates it at 150BC, the one I looked at yesterday said 250BC. While it is true that none of the texts of the original Hebrew still exsist, the Masoretic Hebrew and Septuagint Greek were both copied from the original. There are differences between the two, but I nothing that is critical to salvation. Some people dismiss the Masoretic some dismiss the Septuagint I think it's important to consider both. I cannot find a site that says how many we have, I will look more tomorrow.

[ Thursday, July 21, 2005 19:08: Message edited by: The Ghost of Jewels ]

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"Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05

"Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00
Off With Their Heads
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Profile Homepage #94
Um, I meant scholarly, not someone's personal website about why we should believe the Bible.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #95
You're right, the Five Books of Moses are wholly or partially written by Moses. The rest was left to bunglers, and now we have things like Buggere Alle This Bible.

Besides being able to cry "Slippery slope!" over biblical literalism and pi, which is silly, I'll concede that the pi is a moderately absurd way to disprove the Bible by counterexample. I'll also note that most sites I can find seem to justify it by extreme means up to and including localized distortions of space and time to permit pi = 3. Lovecraft was in the Bible, apparently. Rounding the number makes a lot more sense to me, especially since the target audience probably wasn't too familiar with decimals, let alone transcendental numbers.

Allah linguistically means "god," I believe. Their God, your God, Zeuss, Thor, or the Almighty Dollar, they're all Allahs. However, since the Koran specifies that the Allah of choice is the same Allah as Abraham's and Jesus', I think denying that to Muslims, at least, it's all one God is ridiculous.

—Alorael, who is at least willing to accept that if God stopped the sun and performed other feats that might have dire consequences, he kept those dire consequences from happening. If you're God, the easiest way to stop the sun in the sky is probably either to move the sun around the Earth for a while or to start doing funny bendy things to incoming photons to make it look like the sun is standing still. Or maybe you drop the Earth into an alternate universe in which the sky is actually only a mile overhead and is made of a large canvas upon which blue skies, clouds, and the sun are painted. God doesn't have to play by the rules.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
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Ah, but how do we know that the Earth revolves around the sun, anyway? It could be vice versa. ;)

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Sex is easier than love.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
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Doesn't the Bible mention that, too? The sun rose and the sun set, that sort of thing?

—Alorael, who refuses to call dawn sunrise and dusk sunset. Instead, he refers to them as sun appearing over the horizon time and sun disappearing over the horizon time. Be not dismayed from literalism by awkward turn of phrase!
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #98
quote:
As written by SoT:
These are either essentially impossible, or miraculous only in timing.
Not at all impossible, and timing is easy. The bible is also a compilation of history, especially oral history, and as such can condense actions from multiple generations into one important action. Who's to say that there weren't multiple attempts at crossing the Sea of Reeds, but Moses was the guy lucky enough to experience the brief recession of the water during an exceptionally strong tide? I've personally witnessed this type of tidal action, and aside from being incredibly scary, it is an awesome example of gravity.

Likewise, some of the characters in the bible are attributed with incredibly long lives. Highly unlikely that it is true as written, but if it is instead view as an example of a steady family life, with son and grandson ad infinitum with the same name, and then lumped together as one by the storyteller, it is perfectly reasonable. The family of Methusala may have been 30 generations strong in order to compile the length in years. It is just another way of explaining something which is unfamiliar in our present way of assigning credit for tasks/guilts.

I am enjoying this exchange of information, as the participants each bring to the table pieces of information that others may be lacking. It is part of why SW is an interesting forum.

*this message sponsored by God and instructs Ben to accept different languages as His Creation*
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
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The majority of the Dead Sea Scrolls were written on animal skins, not parchment.

What is so hard to grasp about the fact that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God?

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
====
Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
desperance.net - We're Everywhere
====
You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00

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