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AuthorTopic: Were we prepared?
Master
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Islam is cousin to Christianity? O_o

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-ben4808

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Yep.

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Specifically,
quote:
Islam originated in the 6th century, in the Arabian cities of Makkah and Madinah. Although not a dissident branch of either Judaism or Christianity, it explicitly claimed to be a continuation and replacement for them, and echoed many of their principles.


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Master
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Same principles. Yeah right.

Islam is not hardly even similar to Christianity. And Allah != God.

[ Friday, July 08, 2005 13:38: Message edited by: Mister Maoben ]

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I suspect that you don't know enough about Islam to be able to say that. For instance, "Allah" is an Arabic word that means "God" (or "the God"), not a personal name, so a statement like "Allah != God" is nonsensical.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

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Master
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Well, whatever the meaning, the "Allah" the Muslims worship is definately not the same as God which we Christians worship. I mean, there's different religious texts, different religious traditions, and just a different religion.

What I meant was that the Islam Allah != the Christian God.

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My sense is that Ben has been indoctrinated to such a degree that he is incapable of listening to opposing views. It is unfortunate, given that he is young, that he has such a strong opinion on this matter. It is one of the most refreshing aspects of youth to have an open mind, constantly seeking to absorb new and different information.

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If he doesn't trust an encyclopaedia, I'm not sure there's much we can do to bring him around.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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Ben, yes, certainly the religions are different — no one has said that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are identical. They are related, however. Christianity and Islam have more to do with each other than Christianity and the Japanese Shinto religion, for instance.

The relationship is sort of akin to that between French and Spanish: the two languages are related but certainly not the same. Hence, cousins.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

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I think part of the issue may be that Ben is underestimating just how different religions can be from each other. Compared to the Abrahamic religions, religions such as Buddhism have radically different ways of thinking and systems of ethics that make Christianity and Islam seem similar by comparison. The idea that children born with serious illnesses are suffering because of wrongful acts they've committed in past lives probably horrifies most Christians, but it's a view that the Dalai Lama himself has officially endorsed. In India, it's punishable by death to shoot an elephant even if it's charging at you, because elephants are harder to replace than people.

[ Friday, July 08, 2005 14:22: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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quote:
I think part of the issue may be that Ben is underestimating just how different religions can be from each other.
I think he knows that. But he is absolutely sure that the only true faith is his faith, and the only existing God the one he believes in. So Muslim or Shinto, where's the difference, he knows they are both wrong anyway.

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Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
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The relationship between Christianity and Islam is like the relationship between Judaism and Christianity.

Christians believed that Jesus was the messiah and a prophet of God. Jews did not.

Muslims believed that Jesus was a prophet, but that Mohammed was also.

All three religions have the same God, whether they call him God, Adonai, Allah, Jehovah, or YWHW.

The doctrines and teachings of the three religions are all different, but each builds on the books of the past. Jews have the Old Testament, Christians have the New Testament as well, and Muslims have the Quran, which incorporates people and stories from both Testaments into one book with the new teachings of Mohammed.

The Hadith is like the Talmud, and ?Scriptures?.

Liberal, moderate, and even conservative Islam are not the terrorists. Fundamentalists, a loud minority, are the problem, and likewise for every religion.

[ Friday, July 08, 2005 14:43: Message edited by: Drakefyre ]

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Despite the likelyhood that this was to coincide with the G8 conference, which, I will add, pulled several thousand police officers to Gleneagles, depleting one area's police force, by half, we were overdue.

I mean no offence to the victim's families, but to be perfectly honest, we've been expecting this for years. In recent memory, though I may be wrong, the last terrorist action in London was the nail bomb, in Soho, years ago and that was by the IRA. We were seriously overdue a rebuke relating to backing the "war on terror".

Strong similarities were drawn to the Madrid bombings. While the actual size of the bombs were different, they were both on four forms of public transport, though, in that case, all trains. Similarities have also been drawn to information gained from preliminary examinations of the bomb debris.

As it has already been pointed out, though, in a city of nine million permanent residents and a booming tourist trade, it is impossible to guard from every threat. What will be the telling thing is any possible action that might be taken, after the fact.

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Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00
Master
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Actually, I am of the disposition that God is the true God and Allah is a clever form of the Devil causing Muslims to think they're worshipping God himself. You can't just say that the Koran is a revision of the Bible. The Bible has no revision, barring the differences in translations, but even there the main points aren't significantly altered.

Now I agree that Islam and Christianity have some similar characteristics, most notably both being monotheistic and both going off of the teachings of a "prophet," but they differ in that the Gods they worship are different. And I'm not going to deny the existance of this "Allah" because I think Allah is the Devil and the Devil's purpose has always been to overtake God. Though he never will overtake God, he will win the souls of the people who choose to reject God. Also remember that the Devil is a liar, so whatever he tells his people he'll do for them isn't necessarily what will happen.

I think I'll end this rant for now, and I'm sure you'll beg to disagree on much of this, but no matter what you tell me, I'm not about to turn myself into a antireligious atheist. After all, with that mentality, the only reason you exist is, well, I guess there is no reason.

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quote:
Originally written by Mister Maoben:

You can't just say that the Koran is a revision of the Bible. The Bible has no revision, barring the differences in translations, but even there the main points aren't significantly altered.
A Jewish person would probably say that the Torah has no revision. How come you're allowed to add to the Jews' holy texts but Muslims aren't allowed to incorporate some of yours into theirs?

[ Friday, July 08, 2005 17:27: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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quote:
Originally written by Mister Maoben:

no matter what you tell me, I'm not about to turn myself into a antireligious atheist.
Is that really what you think our goal is? I just think you shouldn't be misinformed about other religions, not that you should convert or something.

I think that ignorance (or worse, misinformation) is the greatest enemy. I would think that you could at least agree with that.

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Law Bringer
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The New Testament is a rather massive revision of and addition to the Tanach. Religious conviction aside, I don't see what differentiates the Judaism-Christianity difference from Christianity-Islam. Note that many Muslim leaders have claimed that Jews and Christians are, in essence, right but not right enough. The Old and New Testaments are right, for the most part, and as far as they go, but we're missing out on the most recent and most important prophet.

Whether or not you think Islam is religiously right, you can't deny that it springs from a common Abrahamic base.

—Alorael, who still finds the claim that Allah is not God nonsensical. You can make a case for Islam being a diabolical perversion of the true faith and forms of worship, but Allah is God. The same God. (Incidentally, worship of Jesus and saints still seems rather strange. That whole Trinity bit makes the claims of monotheism bizarre.)
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In theory, one should not worship saints. Catholics have thought that saints can act as go-between with God — it's a lot easier to talk to a person than a mysterious divine entity — so you can pray to a saint, but not worship one.

I've never really understood what people mean when they say it's the same god. It's a similar god, certainly, compared to Zeus or Kali or something, but what does it mean to say that it is the same god?

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

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*sigh*
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

A danger in the world today is rising religious fundamentalism, regardless of the actual religion.
Or lack thereof. Religious fundamentalism is by no means the only kind - it may be the most prominent, but as Kel said, you can't forget the others.

quote:
Originally written by Mister Maoben:

Islam is cousin to Christianity? O_o
Ben, please do yourself a favor and read some kind of secular history of world religions, or at least Abrahamic religions. I don't mean that sarcastically - I really think it would be beneficial to you.

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

My sense is that Ben has been indoctrinated to such a degree that he is incapable of listening to opposing views. It is unfortunate, given that he is young, that he has such a strong opinion on this matter. It is one of the most refreshing aspects of youth to have an open mind, constantly seeking to absorb new and different information.
Agreed, but he's not incapable. I must say, I'm impressed with the overall reaction to Ben in this topic. Since when are Spiderwebbers this reasonable? If the underlying hostility were done away with, maybe you would be able to get through...

quote:
Originally written by ef:


quote:
I think part of the issue may be that Ben is underestimating just how different religions can be from each other.
I think he knows that. But he is absolutely sure that the only true faith is his faith, and the only existing God the one he believes in. So Muslim or Shinto, where's the difference, he knows they are both wrong anyway.
No, Thuryl's right. You may be right too, ef, that he is absolutely sure of his own faith and thus regects others equally, but maybe if he understood other religions and the differences between them, this would not be true to such a degree.

EDIT: Ben, I held the same belief several years ago. I completely understand where you're coming from - it made perfect sense to me at the time. However, God is God. We call him God, the French call him Dieu, the Spanish Dios, and the Muslims, Allah. Faithful Muslims worship God just as faithful Christians do. Satan's deception, in this case, does not come in the form of a false god - it comes in the form of faulty worship, incorrect beliefs, etc. - Christian and Muslim. Quite frankly, we're all wrong. Only God can know the truth in its purest form, and neither you nor I nor the ayatollah nor the Saudi bookseller is God, so we cannot know the whole truth. Does the imperfection of your belief system and your worship make you a devil-worshipper? I'll leave that up to you, but my answer is no. We're all worshipping the same God, we're just worshipping him incorrectly (and in different ways).

quote:
Originally written by Mister Maoben:

The Bible has no revision, barring the differences in translations, but even there the main points aren't significantly altered.
Mmm... no, unfortunately, not true. Did you know that a footnote written by a monk describing his own feelings about the Trinity was later included as a part of the King James Version of the Bible, and is now in all Christian bibles that I know of except the Jehovah's Witness New World Translation? The Trinity is certainly a main point. I'm glad you recognize that no translation is perfect, though - it's best to leave some room for error when reading the Bible.

quote:
Originally written by Manhood Typing Kelandon:

In theory, one should not worship saints. Catholics have thought that saints can act as go-between with God — it's a lot easier to talk to a person than a mysterious divine entity — so you can pray to a saint, but not worship one.
This serves to illustrate my point about misguided worship on the part of Chrstians. I don't think that worship of saints is all that common today, but it's certainly not non-existant, and the use of icons has often become idolatry in the past. That is the way of Satan, Ben, not setting himself up as Allah.

Check your PMs, please, Ben.

EDIT2: Make that email, since I'm on your ignore list and all.

EDIT3: That's blocked too. How frustrating. I'm not going to expose you to spam or flaming or anything. Would you please unblock me or at least send an email I can respond to?

EDIT4 (sorry): Never mind, found it. All I can ask now is for you to read it and not delete it, I guess.

[ Friday, July 08, 2005 20:48: Message edited by: Lady Davida ]

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Triad Mage
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quote:
Originally written by Manhood Typing Kelandon:

I've never really understood what people mean when they say it's the same god. It's a similar god, certainly, compared to Zeus or Kali or something, but what does it mean to say that it is the same god?
Because it is the same God. Jews don't believe that Jesus was a prophet or the messiah, but Christians do. Muslims believe that Mohammed was also a prophet (of the same God), and that his teachings, since they're the most recent, are the most correct.

Almost all Jews and Muslims that I know accept that the 'Big Three' worship the same God, but for some reasons a lot of Christians can't accept it.

The 'Big Three' religions are derivative in that they have different interpretations of God's will and different views on who his messengers were. Mohammed was apparently shown to God by the Archangel Gabriel.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all worship the same God, but in different ways.

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Rather a bit wrongheaded on all counts. Muslims believe Muhammed was a messenger of god, not a miracle worker. He laid down how they were supposed to live, he was not the "son of god" as Muslims believe Jesus was. Further, Muslims are supposed to recognize Christianity and Judaism as one of the "three faiths" which believe in God. They are not supposed to persecute anyone of the monotheistic faiths, specifically because they believe in the one god.

Whether they follow their own teachings is another matter. It has been a past time of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam to kill each other because the faiths are so similar in many ways. It is easier to find fault with things you are familiar with.

Of course fundamentalists like to reinterpret this in any way they like so they can kill anyone they don't like. People have a natural ability to reinterpret their religion in strange ways. It is these strange intrepretations that allow evil to flourish in many cases. Twisted intrepretations allow murder and lies to seep in creating the Jim Joneses and suicide bombers in the world.

Furthermore, the bible is a very selective document. It leaves out large sections of earlier texts. The dead sea scrolls, the Kebra Nagast, and numerous texts are not part of the "bible". In its early form the church decided which pieces to keep in the bible. This was decided by people, not divine beings. This makes it a fairly fluid document. Translation from the Greek texts changes the content considerably. Also, religious interpretation removes large sections of the bible if some groups don't like it. I think there are several hundred different versions of the "bible".

[ Saturday, July 09, 2005 04:31: Message edited by: I'll Steal Your Toast ]

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Back onto the original topic of this thread, I have a small and outdated update: 52 confirmed dead, 700-1000 injured and 22 seriousy injured (or was it 95?).
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Drakefyre: I think what you're trying to say is that each later religion is a revision on the older faith, which is not quite the same thing.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. Muslims believe that God spoke to Muhammad, but if Judaism is the correct religion, then Muhammad couldn't possibly have been speaking to the same god as the Jews — that "god" told him incorrect things. He had to be hallucinating or speaking to a devil or something. If Muslims then set up shrines to worship the god of Muhammad, they can't possibly be worshipping the same god as the Jews. (Well, unless he was speaking to the same god but garbled the message.)

If Muslims are right, then Jews and Christians are worshipping the same god as Muslims are, just less perfectly than Muslims, but if Jews or Christians are right, I don't see why there would be any reason to believe that Muslims (or Christians, if Jews are right) are worshipping the same god at all.

And if all three are wrong, then that god doesn't exist, so there's no "same god" to speak of anyway.

EDIT: And I suppose I should add that I'm going on a "universal truth" model of religion. If you believe that the same god spoke to Jews and Muslims, but he said different things to them because he wanted them to do different things, then that resolves the issue too, but I don't think that's orthodox in any of the three religions.

[ Saturday, July 09, 2005 06:19: Message edited by: Manhood Typing Kelandon ]

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Triad Mage
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Kel:

Jews believe that Jesus and Mohammed were men with ideas, not divinely inspired. We know that Christians and Muslims (and Jews) all worship the same God, but we differ in who we believe were his messengers.

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On the former topic: Poor English people... Well, it's your own fault for raping countries of their resources and installing puppet dictators. (Then again, it's not like we in the US didn't do it either).

On the current topic: Ben, I'm quite curious what you think of the Crusaders. Do you see them as looting, pillaging, spiteful, unreligious killers or kind, pious worshipers of your God?

On religion in general: It's quite regrettable that people can get tied up in this sort of scam. There is no evidence that any religion is valid. Sure, miracles can happen, but I'm just of the opinion that they were simple luck.

If religon was truly rational, people would think things through before going out to slaughter people in the name of a God who, if they're reading their religious text right, expressly told them not to kill. Or who told them not to drink, and then had them perform a ritual based on it.

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