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Geneforge and Online Play in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #33
IMAGE(http://web.mac.com/szorzopulos/iWeb/Site/Library_files/RWW.jpg)

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
What video gmaes would you like to see made into movies... no Halo! in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #2
I would think Mr. Pitchblack would be better served by a movie about spell check. Unless he really is asking about "gmaes" (pronounced "Guh-Mayz" I think)

As for me, a movie about pong would be sweet. Left paddle would make an *amazing* villian. Such depth of character!

edit: Extra snark added.

[ Monday, December 24, 2007 10:58: Message edited by: Zorro ]

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #378
217 369 5484

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

You guys are funny. Not only is practicing homosexuality wrong by standards of absolute morality, but also it’s physically harmful and bad for society in the ways it is practiced.
This is hilariously wrong. Obviously you're not a medical professional or you would know better than to suggest being gay is physically harmful, and my advice to you is to check out WebMD. Here are a couple of basic readings that might be a useful place to start:

http://blogs.webmd.com/sexual-health-sex-matters/2007/04/is-homosexuality-against-nature.html

http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/guide/sexual-orientation

Also, I have no idea why you think being gay is bad for society, but obviously that is the reason to which you object to gay marriage. You see, it is incumbent on you, the person proposing legal restrictions on who your fellow citizens can marry, to provide a clear rationale for why such a restriction is warranted. Like it or not, the USA was built on a foundation of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. And since you're proposing to interfer with at least two of the three listed above, give us a good reason. So far, you haven't - you've given a bogus and easily refutable medical argument; and an unsupported claim that gay people are a menace to society.

At any rate, it will do no good to trying to argue around the ordinary language meaning of "discrimination" - what you propose (legal restrictions on gay marriage) is clearly discriminatory. Discrimination is a family resemblance concept, so you'll just tie yourself in linguistic knots trying to understand the essence of “discrimination”. Like the word "game", its uses generally share the same features but there is no single feature that applies to all instances in which the word "discrimination" is properly used.

So your challenge is clear - describe why it is proper to restrict the constitutional rights of citizens to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

Z

[ Tuesday, December 18, 2007 10:07: Message edited by: Zorro ]

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Another Old School Game in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #38
I downloaded Eschalon and am finding it a lot of fun. I think it gets a lot of the little details right, and a few wrong. Performance isn't great, but acceptable, on my below-specs G4 Mac, but it runs as smooth as can be on my Macbook Pro. I think the graphics are a step above Spiderweb (for whatever that's worth) and the sounds and music are substantially better as well.

There are a couple of things that bother me - some of the encounters are unbelievably difficult, to the point of being frustrating; the fact that your character must be male; and the plot is pretty hackneyed (at least as far as I've seen). But I have liked this game enough to register it. In a weird way it reminds me of a single player version of Ultima Online.

And realmz... well... let's just pretend that silly piece of hippo dung was never invented, shall we?

Z

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Omaha Mall Shooting in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #356
I've been sort of reading this post for a while now and am dumbfounded by anyone saying restrictions on gay marriage are not discriminatory. You've either talked yourself out of the ordinary language definition of "discrimination" like a sophist or are engaging in an exercise of willful ignorance.

What happened when gay couples got married in MA? Um, pretty much nothing, except many people were able to legally sanction their unions. (horrors!)

And as for saying this era being one of extreme secularism, you better put down that skirribane weed. The president of the republic runs around talking about how his faith tells him to bomb middle eastern countries. And Mitt Romney runs around telling us he believes in God enough to get elected. And how many of those major candidates are atheists? Oh, that's right, ZERO.

When JFK gave his famous speech about being a Catholic, he assured Americans that it was okay to vote for him because he would leave religion in the church and govern the affairs of men based on reason and logic, and not on orders from the Vatican. Can someone seriously say that a major candidate would say the same thing today?

Let me repeat - the president of the republic feels perfectly okay saying GOD SPEAKS DIRECTLY TO HIM. If this is extreme secularism, my god what would you consider mild secularism? Burning witches and stoning children to death for disobeying their parents?

Z

[ Sunday, December 16, 2007 17:25: Message edited by: Zorro ]

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Richard White? in Richard White Games
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #7
quote:
Originally written by Excalibur:

quote:
*Collective sigh of Relief *
You've never played Galactic Core, have you?
---
I don't have any reason to suspect RW is deceased; perhaps he's left his games behind, since they didn't earn much funds.

Quiet fool! RW is known to have died at least 100 times. You personally witnessed dozens of them while watching reruns of the Price is Right!Plus, he edited a complete works of Shakespeare!

Where are our white shock troops when we need them?

[ Tuesday, June 05, 2007 10:47: Message edited by: Zorro ]

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
End of Days in Richard White Games
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #40
Fear not fellow cultists! For I bring words of salvation.

Just like RW had to walk 4 miles to sell his LOTR shirts to tourists, so shall we walk our 4 miles. And during that time, we will hear the soothing sounds of mating needle/ferrets. We will be forgotten, but we will not be gone!

And one day, soon in the distant past, we will enjoy the Glory.

To recite the second annual RWG forum slogan - Keep laughing, Galactic Core 2 is coming!

ps- yes, ET is a jackass. But he's our jackass!

[ Tuesday, June 05, 2007 10:38: Message edited by: Zorro ]

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Get in before it's gone in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #4
RWG forum, circa 2005, was THE forum on Spiderweb. No other forum achieved that level of dada humor, religous fanaticism, stoic disregard for good taste, and volumes of needle/ferrets. It shall be missed.

Ischi has been gone for a long time. Am I the only remaining fan of Galactic Core? Has anyone else registered it?

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
The classics in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #7
In the time-honored spiderweb meta-game of criticizing polls, rather than answering them, I demand to know why no "none of the above" option is available.

I also demand to know why you choose this seemingly random collection of games and called them classics. I've only heard of 2 of the 4 listed, and Realmz a classic? That's like calling Paris Hilton a Shakespearian actress.

Would Jesus post this poll?

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Reccomend other RPGs in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #27
quote:
Originally written by Dr. Johann Georg Faust:

Pong is so an RPG! I remember many a fun late-night session, seeing my paddle develop character, personality and depth, and watching the dramatic tale of high fantasy unravel before me.
To expand on this comment, I dare anyone to show me a more developed villian than the left paddle!

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Reccomend other RPGs in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #20
I'm surprised no one has mentioned pong yet.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Add free-roam features in Avernum 4
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #10
Hmmm, I actually kind of like the idea of an Avernum-Rogue game. I kind of think Avernum 4 would have be improved with randomized dungeons, treasures and monsters, since there is very little about the plot that requires defined layouts for many of the dungeons.

Then again, if it made every dungeon feel like the goddamn tunnels under the Eastern Gallery, then perhaps I should reconsider.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Jeff Interview at IMG in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #40
I wonder if Jeff will use his 1.5 games left in Geneforge to release G5 and an expasion pack? I'm a big fan of the expansion pack concept in general, and think it would work particularly well for Spiderweb games which tend to have higher than average replay value (especially the Geneforge series) and a dedicated fan base.

But I think the most important reason for Spiderweb to release expansion packs for its games is that dedicated fans (as many on these boards are) are probably willing to pay $30 for the game and another $15 for the expansion pack, and more casual fans who would balk at paying $45 may still be willing to give it a try at $30. Thus, Jeff gets $45 from players willing to pay $45, and $30 from players not willing to pay $45, but willing to pay a bit less. It just makes sense.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
What do people think.. in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #27
Mostly, my friends' reactions range from polite disinterest to willingness to try, and one of whom I managed to get addicted to the Geneforge series (but he doesn't post on these boards). With the exception of wii sports, Spiderweb games are the only ones I play these days.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Wikipedia in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #7
Perhaps we should compose some kind of funeral dirge? Unlike Richard White, Spider won't be alive yesterday as of tomorrow.

I'll take a "stab" at the first verse of the dirge. (I "slay" myself!)

I heard about your death on the radio.
Who knew they read aloud from Wikipedia on the air?
I still remember the time we met.
I always treated you with tender loving care.

And sometimes life is full of surprises.
But mostly its just death and ogre prizes.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Muffins n' Hell...again in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #9
quote:
Originally written by Emperor Tullegolar:

if only because it's so hilariously bad.
Interesting. You find it so bad, it is good. I find it so bad, I can't finish reading it. Reading this is as painful as someone pouring tabasco sauce in my eyes while someone else repeatedly kicks me in the balls.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Deathmatch Tournament -- Round One, Part Two in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #47
quote:
Originally written by Thralni:

If you look at the overal ratings, it should be quite apparent that the more populair people and some of the oldbies actually do get more votes. When a person has to vote, and doesn't know exactly who to choose, who will he choose? The well-known oldbie, or the not-known newbe? Besides, not a lot of people chose for, for example, Muffin, and I wonder if that's because they really thik he wouldn't have won it, or that there prime argument is that he is annoying.
Let me raise my hand and admit how I voted.

I sort of read the thread with amusement, but didn't care for voting one way or another. I voted for those people I knew and liked, particularly members of the Cult of White like Student of Trinity and Ash. The one exception to this was Muffin, and it was truly motivated because I got sick of reading post after post of him complaining about not winning. If his strategy was to win more support, he clearly needs to rethink it because he lost any chance of getting mine.

Spiderweb boards are a different from other online communities. We have a wide range of ages represented - probably between 13 to 35 - and with it a group with very different ideas of what constitutes appropriate Board behavior. Most seem to have no problem and adjust pretty well. They naturally start posting in those forums where the people and humor best matches them. Even in General, some people answer surveys, others do those weird RP things, etc. No problem.

But every once in a while, someone joins who becomes an over-the-top personality. Maybe they crave attention, or whatever. Who knows? Some of them, like Emp Tully, begin as weird and irritating people, and then somehow evolve into unique and funny regulars. Some try to become the next TM, and usually get banned, while oldies sneer that no one can do TM like TM.

My sincere advice to Muffin is to calm down. Take it easy. Enjoy those topics that appeal to you, and remember that we're all here to have fun. There's way more to life than SW games and the company's forum. Don't let the postings of a wanker bother you. The corollary to this is don't become a wanker. If lots of people find your posts little more than whiney spam, don't then write another 5 posts complaining about how you're misunderstood. Just take a step back and reenter the conversation at a different time when you have something substantive to contribute. I believe there's an old Indian saying that there is a reason God gave you two ears and one mouth. It is a pretty good observation.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Deathmatch Tournament -- Round One, Part Two in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #35
quote:
Originally written by Underestimated Muffin:

?
I am a nice person in real life!
Also, as I have said, you guys don't know Iffy's power.
Thus, I will never join a deathmatch again, since REALITY IS STUPID SINCE people misinterpret what I say.
Okay, that is enough ranting/spam for one day (not that I do it on purpose).

To paraphrase the great Shakespeare, the lady doth protest too much.

For someone who claims not to be bothered by the result of a silly online poll, you sure are acting like someone who is really bothered. Do us all a favor and take some time off from these boards.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Spiderweb, the business in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #25
quote:
Originally written by Micawber:

quote:
Originally written by Ladonna:

GC?
I might have said that was a joke, but the sad fact is there are some sad deluded souls who still play Galactic Core.

Sigh - clearly you need to adjust your implants.

Please take a moment to review the
History of the Cult of White

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Spiderweb, the business in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #20
Interesting thoughts everyone!

I find it very interesting that both A4 and G4 are strong sellers. Particularly since they only resemble each other at a very superficial level (literally the graphical look). And while I do the like the style of graphics of both A4 and G4, I seriously doubt that there's tons of demand out there for games with graphics ten years behind the state of the art.

I think A4 is Jeff's easist game to just pick up and play. Nothing is terribly complicated and everything works the way you'd expect. It achieves a kind of intuitve user interface nirvana more software should strive to achieve. In other words, the learning curve is so shallow, even players not used to RPGs can probably pick it up and enjoy it. Thus, the potential demand for A4 may well be larger than for any other Spiderweb game.

G4 may be Jeff's best true RPG ever. I mean that in the sense that the goals of the game itself literally respond to your playing style and your goals. Most games in the RPG genre follow a very linear path, in which you're told what your goals are. In G4, your goals are completely your own - other characters try to influence or coherece your character into serving their ends, but the decision is totally yours. This is a game that probably garners a higher registration rate among more mature players in the RPG genre. Further, I think the game starts out with enough of a bang (I mean, you're doing cool things right from the beginning!) that players who are less enthusiatic about learning a new system, are more willing to give it a try.

I think BoA suffers from a less intuitive interface and older look, which isn't necessarily the kiss of death, but it probably does mean fewer paying customers. In addition, it is sold on the premise that players are given the tools to make their own scenarios. Cool, except BoA is like giving power tools to someone who has never seen a hammer. Yes, they may eventually figure out how to make something, maybe even something great, but the learning curve is steep indeed!

I don't know why G3 wasn't a good seller, but my suspicion is that less than enthusiastic reviews, along with a game that takes a while to get going and a world very different from standard RPG fare, hurt sales.

So..... My ranking of the games by sales looks sort of like this:

Super tier - GC

Top tier - A4, G4, E3, GC

Second tier - E2, A3, A2, A1, G2, G1, BoE, GC

Third tier - E1, NG, BoA, G3, GC

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Spiderweb, the business in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #0
Dear fellow Spiderwebbers:

I caught myself wondering about the general state of Spiderweb's business. What prompted this thinking was a forum post in which Jeff said Avernum 4 is the game that saved his company, and that Blades of Avernum didn't sell very well. I guess it is logical to infer that Geneforge 3 didn't sell well either, since that game came between BoA and A4, and the company needed saving. I think I also remember reading something about Nethergate not being a big seller either.

So, I'm wondering, what would a list of Jeff's games, organized by total sales, look like? Which games to do you think sold well and why? Obviously, this is all highly speculative, but I am curious. Even more so when I looked at some of Jeff's old interviews (to see if he ever mentioned sales numbers), from the E2 and E3 era, and was struck by just how optimistic and excited he was about his games and his designs. Contrast that level of energy and enthusiasm for his products compared to his more recent, more cynical, writings.

All this may be useless speculation, but I've been playing Spiderweb games for nearly a decade, and I've grown to care about the company and its continued existence.

[ Thursday, April 26, 2007 04:23: Message edited by: Zorro ]

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Jeff Vogel's RPG hating rant in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #16
quote:
Originally written by Ladonna:

[QB]

quote:
Alorael, who doesn't understand the [sic] there. Jeff spelled RPGs without the apostrophe. That's now an acceptable pluralization of acronyms, but even if it weren't you can't put [sic] by your own writing. That's bizarre.
Alorael, who doesn't understand sarcasm ;) . To me, the two RPG's that Jeff wrote about are absolute craphouse RPG's, hence the 'sic'.

[QB]
Uh...

Your explanation just added a dose of bizarreness to your previous comment. (SIC) means, in Latin, thus in the source text. It is used when quoting from a text which uses an alternative spelling or has a misspelling. Hence the bizarreness of your original use and the incoherence of your explanation.

Sorry to harp on this, but it wouldn't be Spiderweb's Message Boards if someone didn't.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Learn how it's done. in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #36
(1) What's your main goal in life?
Be happy

(2) If you won a million dollars, what would be your first thought?
This will pay off my student loans!

(3) When you are mad; do you usually stay angry or do you yell to release the anger?
I usually stay angry for at least a couple of days. I rarely yell, but it happens.

(4) Tell us an anecdote of anything that happened to you today.
I was getting my morning triple grande skim latte from Starbucks, and a group of 30 to 40 year old women were outside giggling like school girls.

(5) What's your current Philosophy on life?
Logical positivism

(6) If you created a deadly disease, what would you call it?
Leftovers

(7) What should you be doing right now?
Writing

(8) If this were Southpark, what character do you think you'd be?
Satan, mostly because of the singing.

(9) What occupations you wanted to be when you were a kid ?
Journalist, economist, President

(10) What happened to those dreams?
Two out of three ain't bad

(11) Describe the last dream you can remember.
A dream in which I overslepted a missed a deadline. Then I woke up and realized I still had time. Then I overslepted and missed a deadline. Dreams coming true is WAY overrated.

(12) If you were a supermodel, which supermodel would you be?
(super) Model T

(13) If you had to live in a hole, what kind of creature would you be?
Next

(14) If you could have one thing right now, what would it be and why?
A sandwich. Because I skipped lunch.

(15) Name one thing about you that embarrasses you.
My father.

(16) Do you usually walk around your house with sandals or barefoot?
Barefoot

(17) Have you ever gotten something you really wanted but thought you wouldn't get?
Nope. I'm still waiting!

(18) Name one thing you are presently excited about or fascinated by.
I'm fascinated/horrified by the war in Iraq. I spent over a year in the region, and I'm fascinated/horrified by how naive most Americans are about this issue (not to say I fully understand it, but I understand it enough to know that those who think they understand it are almost certainly wrong). I'm even more fascinated/horrified by how strongly people believe things about that region without ever having been there.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Jeff Vogel's RPG hating rant in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #3
It has been a really long time since I've posted a message, but this is a topic of interest to me, so I'll stop lurking - for the moment at least.

My first piece of advice is try to understand the argument being made before criticizing it, or dismissing it. Jeff may be a lot of things, but stupid is not one of them.

As near as I can tell, the argument is as follows:

(1) RPGs artificially inflate their content by including lots of pointless battles, quests or wandering;
(2) The true content of an RPG is not enhanced by this pointless filler, it is just lengthened;
(3) The pointless filler, being pointless, introduces its own problems, such as starting you off as a pitiful peon, barely able to get out of bed without fainting, in order for you to kill fantastically boring creatures (like goblin toddlers) and perform mundane activities (like returned books to the library) in order to get strong enough to do something cool; and
(4) Jeff's had it with this nonesense (a sentiment which which I fully agree).

The first part of Jeff's article was criticized so unfairly, I fear a nation of straw men has suffered genocide.

Jeff is not criticizing leveling up per se.

Jeff is not saying you need to start out with a vorpal broad mop of smiting +132, so you can kill the boss immediately.

Jeff IS saying your game should be fun. Take BG2, you start trapped in a dangerous dungeon and must fight your way out. It accomplishes the task of getting your character some starting equipment, introduces other important characters, etc., and does so by being anything but boring.

BG1, on the other hand, starts you off fetching arrows for some jackass and playing the Orkin Man (incidentally, does anyone really believe the most efficient way to get rid of a rat problem is to send in someone with an axe?).

In both cases, the same goal accomplished, but one is fun and exciting and memorable, the other is tedious and silly.

Or to use an example that may hit closer to home, in A4 you spend a horrid about of time fighting the same goddamn bugs over and over again in the Eastern Gallary. Compare that to the tutorial of G4 (the tutorial!), in which you're running past some silly-powerful creations that are killing the characters you've just met.

Jeff's point is that many (perhaps even most) RPGs rely on the crutch of grinding combat and leveling to extend a game without adding anything interesting. I agree! Why should I waste my time with 3 hours of boring crap in order to get to the one cool fight? Why not make the whole thing cool? Or, if you can't make the whole thing cool, just cut out the filler 3 hours of wasted time? Mostly, the whole thing isn't cool because it is hard and takes time to make. So Jeff's voting with his wallet and not rewarding most RPGs with his business.

On a follow-up note, one of Jeff's biggest influences is Fallout. I think anyone who has played Fallout and the Geneforge series can see the influence.

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
1994 Backwards Is 2006 in General
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #33
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:



People care most about the government doing its job competently. They also care about basic civil rights, and if you can manage both, then they'll start caring about issues. But if you, as a member of the government, can't manage to handle the fundamental aspects of government rule, people are going to get very angry with you, even if they agree with you on all the issues. I'll vote for a competent Republican over an incompetent Democrat on any given Tuesday, even if that Republican disagrees with me on issues such as the environment or taxation.

Maybe, but I think this is limited way of looking at modern government. A single representative usually has little power. However, the party that controls the Congress decides which issues are brought up for debate and vote. If the Republicans control Congress, that means LOTS of votes on abortion and flag burning and denying US treaty obligations to the United Nations. Even the most competent and independent Republican Senator or Congressman then, becomes limited to the agenda largely adopted by his or her Party. Sure, they influence that agenda on an individual basis, but the differences between having Republican issues and Democratic issues addressed in Congress is huge.

Further, it isn't clear the modern Republican party has a coherent political philosophy that is able to be put into practice, even by the most competent managers and administrators in the world. The supply-side economics crap was laughed out of the academy, and caused nothing but massive debt when operationalized (as predicted by honest-to-goodness real economists, not hacks working at the Heritage Foundation putting out hyena-dung whitepapers that "show" that each dollar is tax cuts will bring in 2 in additional revenue).

The so-called "movement conservatives" have spent 40 years (since the Goldwater campaign) building an alternative universe of thinktanks funded by lunatic plutocrats (like Scaife) and their sycophants. They have published uneconomic tracks of political feces that are usually incoherent attacks, sometimes racists (remember the Bell Curve?) and always silly. They've made it an article of faith among themselves that "the experts" at universities or legit think tanks like Brookings are just ideologically driven liberals, and thus, have nothing worth listening to. They've so devalued expertise and learning in their own eyes that they've driven away those very people who MIGHT be able to make their agenda work. Paul O'Neill got booted from Treasury because he was too reality-based; Christine Todd-Whitman got the middle finger from Bush while she was head of EPA and decided to do something about global warming. General Eric Shinseki was made a lame duck chairman of the JCoS more than a year before he would retire because he said the occupation of Iraq would take hundreds of thousands of US troops.

The point is movement conservatives have much more in common with the old Soviet Communist party than the party of Eisenhower. They value loyalty and ideological firmness above all. They are incapable of accepting any disconfirming evidence of their ideological positions. And this commitment to their ideology (which cannot be touched by facts) makes them think of others as enemies to be destroyed. Its Clauswitcz on its head - politics is war by other means. Think I'm exaggerating? Take a walk down the sewers of freerepublic.com or read the transcripts from Heritage Foundation seminars. But make sure you have a strong stomach and a vomit-bucket nearby because it ain't a pretty sight.

Z

[ Wednesday, November 08, 2006 18:28: Message edited by: Zorro ]

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00

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