1994 Backwards Is 2006

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AuthorTopic: 1994 Backwards Is 2006
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #25
Barack Obama isn't qualified to be president/hasn't shown anything beyond rabid Democratic hype.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy
Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet
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You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #26
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

Barack Obama isn't qualified to be president/hasn't shown anything beyond rabid Democratic hype.
Astonishing then that so many persons of power are not actually qualified for the roles they fulfill.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #27
This may sound a little strange at first, but hear me out.

What's the first thing that Italians used to say about Mussolini? "He made the trains run on time." What was the second thing they'd say about him? Horrible dictator, lack of freedom, brutal, all that bad stuff. But the first thing that people remembered about even Mussolini was that he was competent at the fundamental aspects of his job (making the government run efficiently).

People care most about the government doing its job competently. They also care about basic civil rights, and if you can manage both, then they'll start caring about issues. But if you, as a member of the government, can't manage to handle the fundamental aspects of government rule, people are going to get very angry with you, even if they agree with you on all the issues. I'll vote for a competent Republican over an incompetent Democrat on any given Tuesday, even if that Republican disagrees with me on issues such as the environment or taxation.

This is a lesson that I'm not sure that the leading Republicans up to this election had realized. It was missed in all of the rhetoric about Iraq; we were greeted as liberators, but we were also greeted as the people who shut off the electricity and couldn't get it back on. We were greeted as the people who destroyed the police state, but we were also greeted as the people who couldn't manage to field adequate police in Iraq's cities. Iraqis knew that Saddam's government was more competent at maintaining order than the government we helped to set up, and that's the most important thing to them, as it should be.

I'm pretty sure that it was missed domestically, too, as Bush's government discovered in a big way during Hurricane Katrina. The death toll, which was smaller but not enormously so than the death toll in the 9/11 attacks, was simply too high. Whatever you may believe about the role of government — big or small — it's certainly the case that it's the government's responsibility to help during natural disasters, and Bush's government simply was not competent enough to do that. I don't think that the leadership around and including Bush realized that it matttered that Brown was not good at his job, but it did. And Katrina was not the only instance of offensive incompetence in the past few years.

I'm not trying to place blame on any one specific person (Bush, Cheney, Frist, whoever), but I do think that the people in power in Congress and the Bush administration by and large failed to do their fundamental jobs, and I think that this is the reason for the election turning out the way that it did.

Many people respect McCain for another reason: he views the rules of the game (freedom of the press, etc.) as good in their own right and not simply limitations set upon him from outside. (This is a feeling that I've never gotten from Bush or any of the major Republican neo-cons.) I think there are a number of Democrats who are the same way as McCain is. I am completely in favor of those people, Republican or Democrat, being the ones in charge, those people who are good at doing the basic job of governing and who respect the core laws of our society as the Founding Fathers did.

[ Wednesday, November 08, 2006 15:37: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #28
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Stuff
Now that is exactly what I meant. Thanks for establishing clarity where I had established inscrutability. :D

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #29
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

I'll vote for a competent Republican over an incompetent Democrat on any given Tuesday, even if that Republican disagrees with me on issues such as the environment or taxation.
Isn't it better to do good badly than to do evil well? It's all very well to say that a government should do its job competently, but it doesn't mean much when nobody can agree on what that job is.

[ Wednesday, November 08, 2006 17:05: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #30
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

I'll vote for a competent Republican over an incompetent Democrat on any given Tuesday, even if that Republican disagrees with me on issues such as the environment or taxation.
Isn't it better to do good badly than to do evil well? It's all very well to say that a government should do its job competently, but it doesn't mean much when nobody can agree on what that job is.

I'm confused. Are you merely adding commentary or are you defining the United States as a country which has no clue on governance?

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #31
quote:
Originally written by Silent Salmon:

I'm confused.
My work here is done.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #32
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Silent Salmon:

I'm confused.
My work here is done.

I am so not going to worship you when you subjugate the planet.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #33
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:



People care most about the government doing its job competently. They also care about basic civil rights, and if you can manage both, then they'll start caring about issues. But if you, as a member of the government, can't manage to handle the fundamental aspects of government rule, people are going to get very angry with you, even if they agree with you on all the issues. I'll vote for a competent Republican over an incompetent Democrat on any given Tuesday, even if that Republican disagrees with me on issues such as the environment or taxation.

Maybe, but I think this is limited way of looking at modern government. A single representative usually has little power. However, the party that controls the Congress decides which issues are brought up for debate and vote. If the Republicans control Congress, that means LOTS of votes on abortion and flag burning and denying US treaty obligations to the United Nations. Even the most competent and independent Republican Senator or Congressman then, becomes limited to the agenda largely adopted by his or her Party. Sure, they influence that agenda on an individual basis, but the differences between having Republican issues and Democratic issues addressed in Congress is huge.

Further, it isn't clear the modern Republican party has a coherent political philosophy that is able to be put into practice, even by the most competent managers and administrators in the world. The supply-side economics crap was laughed out of the academy, and caused nothing but massive debt when operationalized (as predicted by honest-to-goodness real economists, not hacks working at the Heritage Foundation putting out hyena-dung whitepapers that "show" that each dollar is tax cuts will bring in 2 in additional revenue).

The so-called "movement conservatives" have spent 40 years (since the Goldwater campaign) building an alternative universe of thinktanks funded by lunatic plutocrats (like Scaife) and their sycophants. They have published uneconomic tracks of political feces that are usually incoherent attacks, sometimes racists (remember the Bell Curve?) and always silly. They've made it an article of faith among themselves that "the experts" at universities or legit think tanks like Brookings are just ideologically driven liberals, and thus, have nothing worth listening to. They've so devalued expertise and learning in their own eyes that they've driven away those very people who MIGHT be able to make their agenda work. Paul O'Neill got booted from Treasury because he was too reality-based; Christine Todd-Whitman got the middle finger from Bush while she was head of EPA and decided to do something about global warming. General Eric Shinseki was made a lame duck chairman of the JCoS more than a year before he would retire because he said the occupation of Iraq would take hundreds of thousands of US troops.

The point is movement conservatives have much more in common with the old Soviet Communist party than the party of Eisenhower. They value loyalty and ideological firmness above all. They are incapable of accepting any disconfirming evidence of their ideological positions. And this commitment to their ideology (which cannot be touched by facts) makes them think of others as enemies to be destroyed. Its Clauswitcz on its head - politics is war by other means. Think I'm exaggerating? Take a walk down the sewers of freerepublic.com or read the transcripts from Heritage Foundation seminars. But make sure you have a strong stomach and a vomit-bucket nearby because it ain't a pretty sight.

Z

[ Wednesday, November 08, 2006 18:28: Message edited by: Zorro ]

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Warrior
Member # 4537
Profile Homepage #34
quote:
Originally written by Lt. Sullust:

Obama 2008
Seconded... McCain is slowly being exposed as a pandering old man, as much as it pains me to say it. And if Obama can't get nominated, I propose that the Dems run Stewart-Colbert.[/QB][/QUOTE]

I'd love to see that, especially because Stephen never breaks character.

quote:
Originally written by Zorro:


Take a walk down the sewers of freerepublic.com or read the transcripts from Heritage Foundation seminars. But make sure you have a strong stomach and a vomit-bucket nearby because it ain't a pretty sight.

Z

I actually checked out a little of FreeRepublic earlier today. Ugggh. =;.;=

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http://whyte-shadow-neko.deviantart.com - My drawings!
Waka Laka love and fantasy~
Posts: 147 | Registered: Sunday, June 13 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #35
Ash: I'm not sure what you mean. If people have shifted their priorities so that what the Republicans stand for is unacceptable to the point where they're voting for Democrats, they've shifted left. Maybe not do to any deep ideological changes, true, but right now the votes are to the left.

I agree with Kel, but with emphasis on perception of competence rather than the reality. If Republicans are the majority in both halves of the legislative branch and they hold executive power and things are a mess, they take the blame. Iraq, Katrina, and all the scandals are just things not going smoothly. People like smooth.

The lack of substantive philosophy behind Republican policy is part of this too. Now people have seen how little the Republicans really get done. They find it frustrating because, I'd argue against Thuryl, people would rather see things run smoothly in a direction they don't really like (as long as they don't hate it) than run roughly in the right direction.

—Alorael, who maintains what he said before. Now the ball is in the Democrats' court and they have to show that they can do better. That's going to be difficult without much of a Senate majority, if indeed they'll have one, and with the president against them. It would be all too easy for the Republicans to spin it into Democrat incompetence and retake lost ground in '08.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #36
I wish we would have listened to George Washington when he warned us never to develop a party based system.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #37
I agree about Obama, he has a lot of hype and energy, but ultimately has yet to prove himself to be an effective statesman in my view. Thus far, he's a lot of talk, but very little substance. I hope that changes, but for now he's lower on my list of Democratic candidates.

As far as McCain, don't be fooled by that visage of a kindly old man. Darth Cheney is only Emperor McCain's lackey. :P

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #38
I saw Obama on Meet the Press a few weeks ago, I was disapointed. He does not seem very charismatic, and at one point, he said he would not attack North Korea because he was afraid of them. He seems weak, I don't even mean weak, he's just plain old garden variety weak. Emperor McCain all the way!

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #39
quote:
Originally written by Silent Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Silent Salmon:

I'm confused.
My work here is done.

I am so not going to worship you when you subjugate the planet.

That will be taken care of by his empire. You will not have a choice.

I'm glad that crooked bully J. D. Hayworth is gone. They could have replaced him years ago with a chimp trained to vote Republican and it would have been an improvement.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #40
quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:

quote:
Originally written by Silent Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Silent Salmon:

I'm confused.
My work here is done.

I am so not going to worship you when you subjugate the planet.

That will be taken care of by his empire. You will not have a choice.

I'm glad that crooked bully J. D. Hayworth is gone. They could have replaced him years ago with a chimp trained to vote Republican and it would have been an improvement.

I needed to complement you on the quote tree and also justify the post by mentioning that there are laws preventing that type of cruelty to animals. Well, actually I have no clue as to the laws, but forcing a person to vote a certain way is definitely not legal. Another post, left justified.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #41
Thuryl: We may disagree on a fair number of things — how much role the government should have in regulating the economy or morality — but there are enough things upon which most people can agree — that the government should be responsible for building roads and maintaing transportation, for instance — that a basic sense of competence can be judged.

I understand your objection, though: I don't particularly want an extremely politically savvy Republican, sort of a Republican LBJ, in a position of power, and that might end up being a further consideration. But my base concern is that we elect people who are actually capable of doing their jobs.

Zorro: I agree with you, and our points are fairly compatible. The ideology got so bound up in, well, ideology that it couldn't adjust to real-life situations. Neo-con ideology said that we should pursue the Iraq War in the way that we did. When it turned out that it wasn't enough, that it wasn't working, it was hard for the Republican leadership to admit that their original plan hadn't really panned out. This is definitely related to competence, although I agree that it goes above and beyond it.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
Profile #42
quote:
Originally written by Silent Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

I'm in the boat that says this doesn't necessarily signify a shift to the left. It's just that a lot of middle-of-the-road people are pissed off about Iraq.
Why are you in a boat?

For monkey business.

Ash: Explain, then, why that pissed-offedness translated to a stem cell bill (in the border South, no less!), the first defeat for a same-sex marriage ban so far (in Arizona, no less!), anti-abortion measures defeated whenever they came up (incl. SD's hateful swing at Roe v. Wade), et cetera.

It's not the kind of thing that will lead to a red flag over Washington in 2008 - this is no revolution - but the American voter is pushing left, and hard.

(EDIT: Originally in 1917. Emergency article cram writing will put your mind in two countries at once sometimes.)

[ Thursday, November 09, 2006 02:34: Message edited by: The Worst Man Ever ]
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #43
Off-topic: Salmon, posting pyramids get topics locked. I kinda like this topic. So the pyramid should probably end. Thanks.

[ Thursday, November 09, 2006 00:52: Message edited by: Sirrus ]

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #44
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

What's the first thing that Italians used to say about Mussolini? "He made the trains run on time." What was the second thing they'd say about him? Horrible dictator, lack of freedom, brutal, all that bad stuff. But the first thing that people remembered about even Mussolini was that he was competent at the fundamental aspects of his job (making the government run efficiently).

If this is anything like the Germans remembering Hitler for building so many autobahns (expressways), then that is more a pretense/joke. Possibly derived from a sarcastic application of "de mortuis nil nisi bonum" - no ill of the dead.

I'll bet that both dictators are not actually remembered firstly for their efficiency and secondly for their atrocities.

But I see the point, even if the example was overdrawn.

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Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
Profile Homepage #45
quote:
Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

the American voter is pushing left, and hard.
Left, hard, and possibly blindly, if my personal perception is correct.
Then again, I live in the state where the campaign slogan of the guy who won the gubernatorial race was essentially "Ohio Sucks: Vote for Me," so I could be skewed just a little bit.

Not that I think things are going the wrong way, nationally. We've needed a fresh perspective on running things for years.
I can pinpoint very little wrong with conservative values and policies, only conservatives: as Kel said, the right wing has become obsessed with preserving its ideology.
However, even though I can also not pinpoint much wrong with the American Liberal approach, the left wing seems to be clinging to the ideology of becoming the polar opposite of the right wing.
That's why I think this swing to the left is blind: everyone knows that current policies are failing, and everyone knows that the party that was until Tuesday not in control has completely different ideas than the party that was in control.

I suppose I say that the nation is blind because I myself feel blind.
Ignorance is the source of my politcal fears. Neither "party" helps this part of my cause: the right intentionally keeps me in the dark, while the left stays cryptic so as to not make promises it can't keep.

When no one has made any ground, the party who hasn't fallen out of favor wins.

Hmm. Left wing and right wing. Both wings comprised of people who have decided that the other side is too obsessed with ideals to actually be of any worth.
It's a wonder we get anything done anymore.

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The Silent Assassin is off on Cram Time. I suppose that I shall get the first e-mail or postcard tomorrow.
In the meantime... I shall enjoy the peace around here. Until the cat wakes up, anyay.

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-Lenar Labs
What's Your Destiny?

Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable.

All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure.
Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #46
quote:
Originally written by Keladon:

But my base concern is that we elect people who are actually capable of doing their jobs
Too bad that's seldom what happens. Most candidates are only capable of getting elected. That's why most resolutions are for honoring local groups and most laws are for special interests. In order to get reelected the politician tries to get the most money for his district and supporters.

It's like when they hire a new college professor. In the interview process the question of whether you can teach is never asked. It's what is your area of interest and what kind of funding can you bring in to the department.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #47
quote:
Originally written by Lenar Labs:

Hmm. Left wing and right wing. Both wings comprised of people who have decided that the other side is too obsessed with ideals to actually be of any worth.
IMAGE(http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060123/images/060123-7.jpg)
:
IMAGE(http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2005/05/06/soccer_riot_wideweb__430x237.jpg)
::
IMAGE(http://www.geliosoft.com/3d-flag-screensavers/american-flag-screensaver.jpg)
:
IMAGE(http://www.serving-in-iraq.com/images/convoy.jpg)

[ Thursday, November 09, 2006 03:57: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #48
quote:
Originally written by Randomizer:


It's like when they hire a new college professor. In the interview process the question of whether you can teach is never asked. It's what is your area of interest and what kind of funding can you bring in to the department.

From what I've seen usually they have them do a guest lecture for a class in front of several members of the current faculty.

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Lt. Sullust
Cogito Ergo Sum
Polaris
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7614
Profile #49
quote:
Originally written by Sirrus:

Off-topic: Salmon, posting pyramids get topics locked. I kinda like this topic. So the pyramid should probably end. Thanks.
Off-topic: Aran, my joke was ill-concieved, apologies to all.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sunday, October 29 2006 07:00

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