Something I never understood
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| Author | Topic: Something I never understood |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 14:28
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Here you have an Empire which possesses the fantastic ability to Shape. Wingbolts, Kyshakks, and Rotgroths. Yet the Shapers WALK EVERYWHERE. Why has Jeff neglected to put mounted troops in the game? I mean, seriously, you'd think a Shaping empire would be able to create half-decent mounts... -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 14:46
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Because such a creation could easily be absorbed right out from under the shaper. Or hit with a discipline wand. Besides, horses are mentioned in GF4. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 14:57
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I didn't think Shapers could absorb other Shaper's creations. Isn't this why they have trouble with Drakons in the first place? Well, in the Geneforge 1 you begin the game by riding on a Drayk Boat thing. [ Sunday, March 25, 2007 14:58: Message edited by: Enraged Slith ] Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Canned
Member # 8014
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 14:58
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Shaper goes to absorb random battle alpha gone rouge. Crunch. [ Sunday, March 25, 2007 15:00: Message edited by: Infernal Flamming Muffin ] -------------------- I can transform into almost anything, though not sanity. My brother tried to type something here. I just erased it. Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7331
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 15:26
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Well, if the Shaper can get close enough to the bloody creature whithout getting stomped/whomped/chomped/crashed/hashed/bashed to absorb it... -------------------- You Shall Die Laughing: http://www.worfthecat.ermarian.net/converted The Roost: www.roost01.proboards104.com. Birds of a feather flock together. Posts: 794 | Registered: Thursday, July 27 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 16:09
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quote:The creation has to submit in order for you to absorb it. In Geneforge 3, Master Hodge left an artila in the creation pen and the innkeeper asks you to kill it. With some leadership skill, you can convince it to let you absorb it. As for mounts, I always figured shapers stay in their fortresses all the time, guardians are man to man fighters, and agents need to move around inconspicuously. As for heavy loads that need to be carried, serviles seem to do fine (caravan in Geneforge 4). -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 17:43
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Shapers make creations to use as boats, which is what you are on at the start of GF1. Since wingbolts are the first true flying creations and are suspect for rogue tendencies, it is too early for Shapers to go airborne. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1250
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 17:45
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I think that the real issue here isn't whether or not a creation mount can be absorbed (although it is important). The issue is that it's probably as easy to Shape a mount for a soldier as it is to Shape a creature that's better than a soldier riding something else. Edit: typo fixed [ Sunday, March 25, 2007 19:11: Message edited by: Guardian of Eternity ] Posts: 93 | Registered: Saturday, June 1 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 22:01
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None of the explainations here really make much sense. It's pretty much a well known concept that cavalry have an advantage over infantry (unless said infantry are armed with pikes/spears). There's no reason whatsoever to justify an absence of unmounted guardians/soldiers (or even Shapers/Agents). Personally, I think it just comes down to laziness on Jeff's part. I find it really hard to take an army seriously, if it lacks light and heavy cavalry. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 995
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 22:18
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the tactical advantages of cavalry over infantry only hold in pre-gunpowder armies. since then, guerilla warfare has ruled whenever applied. think of shaping as gunpowder. (edit: before someone jumps on me: to be fair, I left out years of gunpowder armies which included major cavalry divisions... but those armies were using guns as fancy crossbows and trying to keep the old style. until the American revolution showed them up so badly... and on the other side of history, I left out that before the the invention of the stirrup, cavalry weren't particularly useful - the roman army used cavalry for mop up and show, but the phalanx was tremendously more powerful. the history of warfare is rather more complex than I am putting in this post, and I shall have to suffice to say that cavalry had its moment, but wasn't always superior to infantry, and didn't remain superior to infantry forever). (edit 2: the shapers aren't joking when they say "a single shaper IS an army". just look at how much the player destroys over the course of a game. put my opponents on horseback, and they'll just die faster because they'll get closer to me sooner. in range of my fyoras and daze spells, or my drayks and essence orbs, or my wingbolts and aura of flames (depending on the chapter :) )). [ Sunday, March 25, 2007 23:44: Message edited by: -silver- ] Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 22:39
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When creations can be controlled safely and precisely from afar by shapers and fight more effectively than all but the best of human soldiers, the rider becomes somewhat redundant. quote:"Laziness" is perhaps overly harsh; implementing a mounted soldier convincingly is not an easy task. Think for a while on how you'd do it, and then think on the disadvantages of whatever approaches you might consider. Game design isn't easy. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3828
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written Monday, March 26 2007 07:13
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quote:Actually when we still had the Awakened around, their final ending definitely had flying creatures. -------------------- Morbo is pleased but sticky... Posts: 33 | Registered: Sunday, December 28 2003 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7557
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written Monday, March 26 2007 07:45
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Just use the same script as the one used to make worms spawn from the infested drake! A rider/steed picture, rider/steed picture dies, spawn script activates rider spawns! How hard can that be? -------------------- The force is with ME! I'm not so sure about YOU! Trust me, you do not want to click this link Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8380
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written Monday, March 26 2007 10:51
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Yeah! I want to ride an ornk! Yeehaw! moo :D -------------------- forgot mah old pass ;( Posts: 9 | Registered: Sunday, March 25 2007 07:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 995
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written Monday, March 26 2007 10:53
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I just have to giggle whenever I see people write, or hear people say, "how hard can it be?" Small changes to code are never as straightforward as one thinks they should be - subtle new interactions crop up all over the place (just ONE example, purely off the top of my head: does your new script now perhaps allow people to skip encounters by killing their steed in the right place and re-spawning outside the rectange? well, gotta test for it to make sure...) Small changes to game balance are never as straightforward as one thinks they should be, either (just ONE example, not definitive, not complete. refuting it doesn't "win" anything. all the really good examples wouldn't be discovered until beta testing after its implemented, anyway, but: do steeds give the player more AP? if not, then how are they "faster"? if they do, then haven't you just made the player into a minor demigod?) Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, March 26 2007 12:11
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The biggest problem is probably size. A horse and rider should take up more than one tile. Actually, so should dragons, but a shrunken horse and rider made to fit in one tile would look bizarre. Then again, Jeff managed in A3, so it's possible. I think he's just used to thinking about guys on foot, and that works for me. —Alorael, who doesn't see why anything hostile would spawn from a killed rider. Many attacks could just as easily kill the rider first, or both. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Monday, March 26 2007 14:37
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Also, a stead type creation could take up valuable essence and concentration to control. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8390
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written Tuesday, March 27 2007 02:58
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I always thought Glaahks were supposed to double as mounts. They look ridable to me. Posts: 37 | Registered: Tuesday, March 27 2007 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7638
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written Tuesday, March 27 2007 10:53
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I think they have no mounted creatures because they would be easy to cast terror on to. If a shaper was in the middle of casting a killer spell, all the enemy would have to do is scare his mount. It probably takes a lot of concentration to cast spells and ride horse-like creatures effectively. I thin it would be ineffective to mount guardians just because all the enemy would have to do is get a battle alpha/beta and punch them off their mount. -------------------- "640K ought to be enough for anybody." -- Bill Gates, 1981 The wheel is turning but the hamster is dead. Posts: 152 | Registered: Monday, November 6 2006 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, March 27 2007 11:15
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quote:But think of their attack routine. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7557
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written Tuesday, March 27 2007 11:18
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The blow of a battle alpha should send any man sprawling but my guardian happliy took on 5 battle GAMMA'S in the geneforge room. The blast from a Ur-Drakon should INCINERATE an enemy not just make them "flinch" and take 125 damage! They'er supposed to be able to take out an entire city by themselfs AND fly to boot in G3! Now do you see the error in your reasoning? -------------------- The force is with ME! I'm not so sure about YOU! Trust me, you do not want to click this link Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8338
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written Tuesday, March 27 2007 13:18
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Since we're in a nitpicking thread... ...why are there no bows in Geneforge? Did Batons make Bows (and crossbows, for the matter) obosolete? As for horses, this never really bothered me... Now that you mention it, perhaps Shapers sometimes simply use their existing creations when they get tired of walking? Sure, this isn't present in the game but I can always tell my Battle Alpha to carry me for a while while I rest. And their scorpion-like tail thingy aside the Glaahk look like they were made to be ridden... Talking about "riding", a very perverted thought occurs to me. We know there are female shapers (or male if that's what boils your pot), so has there been any precedent, any rules or such about coitus between shaper and creation? I begin to wonder if this is a problem of any sort and how it's viewed in Shaper society or outside of Shaper society. Are there creations made only for pleasure? I remember that creations are not given the ability to reproduce, but considering that actually shaping other creations (as the Drakons do) means that just parodies of human sexual organs could be made? Thoughts? :eek: Posts: 85 | Registered: Sunday, March 18 2007 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Tuesday, March 27 2007 13:35
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Originally by Eugi: quote:Or thorn batons work so well that bows were never invented. I mean, it's probably a lot easier to carry thorns and a baton than a bow and arrows (although the batons seem to have grown larger in G4). Easier to make? Probably not the batons, but the thorns aren't much of a problem. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 549
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written Tuesday, March 27 2007 20:58
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No one in Avernum uses mounts either. Even the Empire troops in Avernum 3 didn't have mounts even though we know that they use horses. Posts: 227 | Registered: Thursday, January 24 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8390
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written Wednesday, March 28 2007 02:32
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quote:You needn't ride them in battle. You'd just have to get off during the fight. Or duck. Posts: 37 | Registered: Tuesday, March 27 2007 07:00 |
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