Avernum V
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 12:14
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Hmmm... I like the dragon idea. Remember, Athron had kids, and there's still that vengeful dragon from VoDT. By Alorael: quote:You don't even have to make Avernum more repressive. Just use the Scimitar. By Ephesos: quote:Crap. There's an evil overlord quote that works perfectly with this, but I don't have the list on this computer. Guess I'll just have to ad lib... -------------------- IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD: I will not use spawners to progressively populate my dungeon while the Heroes are in it. Instead, I will plan ahead, so they are crushed the moment they enter. Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 549
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 12:33
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I don't think the dragons would be attacking the Empire so soon. They're very patient creatures. I would think that they'd at least wait until their children have grown to adulthood which may take a couple of centuries and the Empire would probably want to wipe out the dragons before that happens. The side quest I'm thinking about involves the Empire trying to find where the dragons are hiding and your group helps either the Empire or the dragons depending on how the rest of the story goes. If you help the Empire the quest may involve you sneaking into the dragon's lair and stealing their eggs, if you help the dragons, the quest may involve you somehow sabotaging the Empire's search. [ Thursday, March 16, 2006 12:34: Message edited by: Vicheron ] Posts: 227 | Registered: Thursday, January 24 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 12:37
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The exact quote is: quote:That aside, I don't like all this "oh, there's still the ____ or the _____ to threaten Avernum." The plot base "Some large force is attacking a place. Stop it." has been overdone by Spiderweb to the extreme. A2/E2 was the first to use it, I believe. Then we had A3/E3, G3, and A4. The newer games are just trying to find different ways to have a place be attacked. We want something fresh! Have us liberate a place from foes! Make us escape from a prison! These aren't great ideas, but there's gotta be something better than "Something's attacking Avernum. Stop it." -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 13:00
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Thanks Wonko. Seriously people, these are good BoA ideas. None of them are really long and detailed enough to be the main idea behind A5. I can't really think of any enemy which will take up an entire game. The caves are mostly settled, the Sliths are nice, the Empire is nice, the Vahnatai are overdone, and the demons would suck for a main plot (side-villains are okay, though). They are, however, the perfect length for a scenario or two. I envision A5 to seem like being beaten to death with feathers; who says evil has to be monolithic? -------------------- "HA HA" - Inscription on an obelisk in a dead-end, somewhere in the Avernum Trilogy. Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 13:31
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When Jeff makes A5 he should not bother recreating the whole of Avernum. As I'm sure he tires of making the same town multiple times. The adventure should begin perhaps at the Castle. From there the party could be sent to a newly discovered cave sytem that Averenties are just begining to settle. In short The Great Cave, Eastern gallery, and so on shouldn't really play a role in A5 as there are, I assume, numerous cave systems that could be exploited beyond these. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 13:37
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quote:No they aren't. "Here's an enemy to beat" isn't a good premise for anything. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 13:52
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Hey. Grah-Hoth is the Prince of Demons. Chances are there are numerous spells preventing him from returning, but what about daddy? The King of the Demons is sure going to angry. WHat's more the angry dragons, that's good. I like this idea, the Empire is being attacked by the Dragons. Avernum has sent it's army into the demon world to kill the King of Demons. The Vahnatai porviding the portal to do so, after all they need to be good guys already. The rebels on the surface have unified under Commander Johnson. The army of rebels is taking advantage of the Empire's weakness to attack. You have to help with each problem. Starting with the demons, and ending with rebels. What's more you can join the rebels, taking over the surface, or kill them. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 14:13
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quote:Once again, we are back to evil demons because demons are evil. Also, where do you find reference that Grah-Hoth is an actual Prince and not just metaphoric? Citation please. quote:The worst thing about A4 would be the utter predictability of the plot. The worst thing about this is the same reason. Come on! Can't we shift the paradigm away from someone attacking somewhere? These games have milked that concept dry. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 14:32
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I learned about Grah-Hoth being the prince on the Encyclopedia Ermarian. Plus there is a reason, his only son has been humiliated, and he's going to want pay back. That's an actual reason, not just "hey that guy is evil, go kill him". About the Dragons, who bout the Empire attacks them because they're harboring in the rebels. Heck we could even do the invasion of the demon world solo. After all it's Avernum who is doing the invading, finally. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 14:41
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quote:The context shows that "prince" is a methaphorical one. Do you have any citation of there being a "demon king" or that Grah-Hoth was his "only son"? Revenge has been done overly much in Exile/Avernum and is pretty much as mundane as the he's evil because he's evil argument. Finally, why must there always be someone attacking/invading something? Can't we do better? -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 14:52
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I would argue that the definition of "Demon" is pretty much "a being of pure evil", so giving them some other motivation may not be appropriate. I would argue that for this reason, they are a really bad idea. I want Jeff to stop telling the story of Avernum and start telling the story of a few people who happen to live in Avernum. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 15:11
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The Scimitar basically became Unspecified Services, so they're not a reliable plot tool as is. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Board Administrator
Member # 1
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 15:35
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The way I currently picture Avernum 5 is: i. In a whole new area of the underworld. ii. On a much smaller scale, plot-wise. You have a major mission, but no monolithic power trying to blow up the world. iii. More like Avernum 2 in details of storyline. iv. Vahnatai are present. v. More talk and diplomacy. vi. More PC icons and graphical improvements, but the same underlying engine. But I won't think about things in real detail for a year, at least. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 15:40
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A band of Unspecified Services adventurers, who should never, ever be called Covert Ops, have made a wreck of Avernum and Valorim. They've looted, killed, and dungeon crawled there way through an entire continent and cave system. Now hordes of Avernites and surface dwellers alike are up in arms. The very throne of Avernum is in danger. As a band of young Unspecified Servicers yourselves, it has fallen to you to right the wrongs and restore the peace. Find new goblin tribes to move into the caves so other young adventurers can gain necessary experience! Find and the heirlooms that are unfortunately far from priceless, buy them back from the merchants who have them now, and return them! Set trap, lock doors, and raise magic barriers to prevent it all from happening again until another band of adventurers has 15 Tool Use and Dispel Barrier! —Alorael, who knows it can't be done. Measle got there first. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 18:13
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A good idea Jeff. That's why your the game designer or whatever. Maybe A5 can be a band of Unspecified Services adventurers going to explore a new tunnel opened recently. The tunnel would lead to Vahnatai Lands with many foes along the way. No one has made it through yet, so you are chosen. The only reason they know it goes to the Vahnatai Lands is because they've scryed it connecting to the Dark Waters. There is some minor settlements of slith and vahnatai build with few people there.The vahnatai settlements along the way ar from other tribes. When you finally make it to the Vahnatai Lands you are greeted much like in A2. You must destroy the new threat/s to the vahnatai, probably including the last of the Rentar Ihrno's followers. I would also like it if they mentioned Bon Ihrno. Like a ghost or hopefully even a Crystal Soul. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, March 16 2006 19:06
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Jeff's post makes me happy. This sounds good. I hope that the "whole new area of the underworld" makes sense with what we've already been told about Avernum. One of the reasons that vahnatai lands were fun in A2 was that they fit with the Avernum map. One of the reasons that ZKR was frustrating, in terms of setup, was that it wasn't possible to place it in relation to anything. More talk and diplomacy, and a little variation beyond just hacking, also sounds quite welcome after A4. EDIT: Skribbaneking, my first reaction to your post is OH GOD NO. Rentar-Ihrno is dead. She has no followers. That was the whole point in A4: she's isolated and alone. There's no more Rentar-Ihrno-ness in the vahnatai. It's done. At least, I hope. [ Thursday, March 16, 2006 19:08: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6857
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written Friday, March 17 2006 01:39
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I really hope that there will be re-growing herbs like A1-3. Also shops should re-stock their products, even when the shop is not completely empty. It is so annoying that you have to buy all of the alchemist's potions in order to get him re-stock only one type of potions. Enemies should drop more often the equipment they are carrying. In A1-3 it was like that but in A4 a band of thugs armed with swords, spears and bows only drop few coins and luckily one sword. Posts: 18 | Registered: Sunday, March 5 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6508
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written Friday, March 17 2006 08:31
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Maybe it should be made that a giant earth quike happend in the eastern part of avernum and reveald a giant path to a new series of caves thats even bigger than avenum and that thetres a new breed of slith.....more powerfull than the ones in avernum and that they have encredible magic and they are more bigger and are a giant portal has bean created and grah-hoth and other mightier demons that lived long before the empire discoverd avernum in avernum and were banished but returns through this portal.And a powerfull magician died but upon his death something happend......all five dragons have returnd.....completely heald and that includes motrax thats slightly yonger.and it would work great with the avernum triology engine. [ Friday, March 17, 2006 08:32: Message edited by: lordofdc ] -------------------- Spiders,webs and software is great but Spiderwebsoftware is the best. Posts: 85 | Registered: Sunday, November 27 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, March 17 2006 08:43
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It would be a great work of parody. —Alorael, who encourages someone to write a scenario in which there are so-called Walking McGuffins that aren't. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Friday, March 17 2006 09:04
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quote:Bigger! More Powerful! Bring on EVERYTHING at ONCE!! ... In all seriousness, this is a typical plot of the inexperienced. It rests upon the assumption that more is always better. When I was younger, naive, and far less cynical, I had similar thoughts and beliefs. Give the monster another 500 HP I thought, they'll love it...but then I realized the dearth of creativity that it was. It's never about how much or how big, but on how detailed, how personal, how elegant. Sure, more can help when needed, but more for the sake of more is almost always less. Finally, I'm happy to read that A5 will be on a "smaller" or "less epic" scale. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, March 17 2006 09:41
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quote:I am looking forward to A5 already. :) A2 was my favorite game in the series. quote:Have you read Evil Masterminding for Idiots? [ Friday, March 17, 2006 09:42: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 2936
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written Friday, March 17 2006 10:07
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quote:Can we also go back to the more open-ended goal set of Avernum 1&2? A set of end-game goals, that can be achieved in an arbitrary order. One of the things I liked most about 1&2 was the ability to choose which paths to follow and when. in 3 (and it looks like in 4, although I just finished the demo, and I'm not going to be able to play the rest of it for a week or 2), the storyline is rather linear. Side quests can be done whenever, but the main plot plods forward, without any significant forking. Posts: 7 | Registered: Tuesday, April 29 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Friday, March 17 2006 10:20
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By Zeviz: quote:This has an uncanny resemblance to the EVIL OVERLORD LIST. Now, once I run out of the 300-odd rules for Evil Overlords to quote, I can use this new list. Thanks! -------------------- IF I EVER BECOME AN EVIL OVERLORD: I will not grow a goatee. In the old days they made you look diabolic. Now they just make you look like a disaffected member of Generation X. Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, March 17 2006 11:51
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quote:A story in the signature might be a bit hard to read. What about some advice for your Henchmen, or even being a good sport and giving advice to the other characters? Sorry about off-topicness. I'll stop now. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Friday, March 17 2006 14:31
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Sorry, I only took a passing look at the Idiot's page. Good reading, though. Wow, an entire site devoted to everything Evil Overlord related. I'm in heaven... *cough* So, back to A4... A less "Heroes of Avernum save the world" approach might be better; it'd be nice to see Avernum from an outsider's point of view. EDIT: Clarification. -------------------- Wouldn't it be easier if Rentar just used a sunlamp on Erika? [ Friday, March 17, 2006 14:33: Message edited by: Dintiradan ] Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |