Suicide
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Warrior
Member # 3621
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written Tuesday, March 23 2004 06:39
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Oops... Maybe I'd rather not speak about drug... I mean suicide and drug is not the same, many people take drugs all their life and never commit suicide, and I suppose that plenty of people commit suicide without being drug adict. What I mean is that some people need to explore inside themself (something less apparent that sport, or "adrenaline junkies"). Or more exactly the process that leads them to suicide is like an exploration. > I cannot believe that there is anything to be > learned from letting them go. And as any exploration, there are good points in this process (I never meant that the suicide is a good point, it is a risk of the process). Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, October 30 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4034
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written Tuesday, March 23 2004 07:49
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I think they mean adictive drugs. crack,sleep pills,anti-depresants? etc. -------------------- "When one thinks to him or herself about who they really are, They usually come out of it empty handed for the question be -not who am i-, but -what have i acheived?-" Experimental forum Posts: 113 | Registered: Friday, February 27 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Tuesday, March 23 2004 09:27
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quote:And appealing to young would-be therapists who endeavor to domesticate such tight rope walkers. (BTW, this would be an extremely fascinating theme for an RP.) ef: I agree, I have that trait myself - I procrastinate certain dull jobs until the last minute - just to make them more interesting to me. However, the partners in my life are less amused by it and such behavior keeps them at a distance. When I notice this (*) in others, I get the feeling that they are bad risks for investing time, energy and empathy, because they are not committed - as if they were alcoholics. Some stabilize themselves into some depressing self-depreciating loss of self-respect. To me this appears like a form of killing oneself softly in a protracted way - like smoking. Alcoholism is a disease. What about this form of "suicidality"? EDIT: added clarification *: "this" refers to the personality trait described in the preceding paragraph. [ Tuesday, March 23, 2004 14:06: Message edited by: yet another procrastinator ] Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Tuesday, March 23 2004 09:43
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quote:What does this refer to? Any true artist is a rope-walker, a lot of researchers are. Maybe we are not talking about the same type of person? What do you mean by 'being committed'? [ Tuesday, March 23, 2004 12:56: Message edited by: ef ] -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 34
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written Friday, March 26 2004 11:46
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The thing about suicide is that you're not around to enjoy it. People do it to escape from life's troubles or to make others feel bad, but once you've killed yourself, you can't even think about what you've done. And the biggest problem with that is no-one can grasp the concept of not thinking, because in doing that you must think. Isn't entropy a terrible thing? -------------------- Always remember you're unique. Just like everyone else. Posts: 702 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Friday, March 26 2004 15:27
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There are very few people who gain satisfaction in removing themselves from life. Retrospect is all well and good but foresight would be better, so you can actually think before throwing yourself over the edge. Assuming something will happen because of your death is unwise, nothing goes exactly as planned, and assumption is the mother of all f* ups. Personally speaking I disagree with your comment on thinking. I can make myself not think quite easily, it's all a matter of concentration and is very relaxing afterwards. Entropy may be unfair, but only life's losers cry that word. It happens, but all things must wind down and come to an end. Entropy can be reversed or stopped, based on anything is physically possible, you just have to find a way to do it. But we are unlikely to see any major effect of entropy in any of our lifetimes. According to human laws of space, time and physics, everything that has a beginning must have an end, how long is inbetween is, ultimately, up to the entity in question. People who commit suicide of their own "free will" - because they cannot find a way out - should remember one thing; anything is possible, you just have to find a way to do it. Life is as simple and as complicated as that. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2628
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written Friday, March 26 2004 16:26
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The difficulty is that most people who attempt suicide are temporarily suffering from thought processes that aren't entirely rational. They are often overwhelmed by their circumstances and unable to think clearly. Tragically many are also unable to see a way out. It took me a long time after my suicide attempt to believe that there was 'light at the end of the tunnel' - around 18 months of therapy and medication before I believed it was there, and another lengthy period before I began to see that metaphorical light for myself. For a very long time I didn't believe there was a way out. I'm alive today because people who cared about me believed there was one and I trusted their belief (as opposed to trusting the distorted world view I had at that time). -------------------- We meet and part now over all the world; we, the lost company, take hands together in the night, forget the night in our brief happiness, silently. -- Judith Wright My website Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Friday, March 26 2004 18:33
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?!?!?!?!?!! *%&%$^£^%$!!! "Temporarily suffering from thought processes that aren't rational"?!?! Do you really know a single human being that can ever truly claim that they are thinking rationally? Because if you think you do I would call them a liar. All humans are insane from birth pretty much. We live in a stupid, illogical and irrational world, full of hope, desire, pain, suffering, war, disease... the list goes on and on. And you expect ANYONE to be even mildly sane?! Ah clams to it! Meh, bleh, feh. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2628
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written Friday, March 26 2004 20:18
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I used the term 'thought processes' for two reasons. One was to respond to the comment quote:I wanted to point out that would require a level of rationality that many at the point of suicide simply don't have at the time (for reasons I elaborated on in my last post). Secondly, I was attempting to be tactful and understated, out of consideration for anyone who may be suicidal and reading this thread. I chose not to phrase it in a blunt and crude manner. I'm sure you can work out why. And speaking from personal experience, yes I believe my thought processes now are a damn sight more rational than they were several years ago. [ Friday, March 26, 2004 20:22: Message edited by: Kyna ] -------------------- We meet and part now over all the world; we, the lost company, take hands together in the night, forget the night in our brief happiness, silently. -- Judith Wright My website Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Friday, March 26 2004 21:33
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Kyna: unfortunately I believe you have the wrong end of this rather pointy stick, for a start, I was not query the usage of "thought processes", merely your suggestion that any human being can be truly rational. Secondly, I was merely pointing out an idealism when I referred to foresight. I am well aware that it is rare that this should be the case. Thirdly, being rational have nothing to do with it, objectiveness has a larger role. "Being rational" is just like "being realistic" and for that matter the whole concept of realism altogether, it's a joke. Designed to create an ideal picture of perfection that no-one can live up to. Commenting about some-one compared to these is far more hurtful than my bluntness. Fourthly, I may be extremely blunt, but at least I don't beat around the bush. I have learnt that it is in nearly all cases the best thing is to cut the c*** and get to the point, you can hurt someone alot more by keeping quiet than by speaking up. For that matter the same apply to personal decisions aswell. "It is better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all." It's Shakespeare if you don't know, and very apt. I'm sure YOU can work out why. Fifthly and finally, No offence to yourself, I do not know you, nor anything about you or the life you've lived. I cannot judge. All I have to go on are the words you write and for all I know they may mis-represent you. I may be wrong in what I say, you may disagree with my arguement but you have an opinion and are willing to state it and that is good enough. And as a parter to you all, something I learnt a long time ago: "Good luck to you in the life that you live. For all that I know, flowers may grow where you tread or your face may hide a demonic evil. However, you play the game that we all must, the game that is known as Life, so good luck to you for whenever you roll the dice and advance." Ah rantilicious! Meh, bleh, feh. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, March 26 2004 22:53
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Denying reality brings up a huge philosophical morass that has little bearing on the discussion. In practice, we all have to agree that there is an objective reality or we might as well all give up and stop trying to communicate. Similarly, while humans are never objective computing machines (with the possible exception of Thuryl), we do achieve various levels of functionality in our cognitive processes. At our best, we can think 'normally,' and usually our decisions make some kind of sense. At our worst, our brains physically do not function normally, and often our decisions make no sense. You seem to be denying the fact that some people are tuned in to the world that the rest of us perceive and that some people are crazy, and I don't buy it. ?Alorael, who disagrees about bluntness. Speaking up without thinking can be just as bad as not speaking up at all. Don't confuse honesty or coherence with bluntness. The former two are considered good traits. The latter is only positive when in conjunction with some form of bludgeon, preferably a heavy one. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Friday, March 26 2004 23:16
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I don't think FBM denied reality, rather refered to the absurdity of our socalled 'normality'. To live with a fully developed awareness of that requires a stable mind, in my opinion. A deeply depressed person may be aware of the absurdity of it all, but believes that 'reality' as s/he experiences it, is the only 'reality' that is. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 1867
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written Friday, March 26 2004 23:31
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The suicidal just needs to know one thing: Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Unless you're being hunted down and KNOW you're gonna be killed (lol, fat chance), suicide is ultimately the cheapest way out. This sort of view helped me plenty during my pubic years (12-14). 'Specially since I was recieving little attention from my parents, tons of insults from my brother, and buckets more of insults from my piano teacher. That, and I had no real friends to speak of. (My only real friend was a buddy who lived all the way in Virginia[FYI: I live in Houston, TX]... and even he wasn't of much help. In fact, he actually pushed me closer to the edge...unknowingly...) My grades were dropping, slowly... But of course, not many people get suicidal for THAT. (At least, I didn't.) Now, when I think back to it, I can't help but wonder: WHY THE HELL would nature screw around so badly during these years? It makes no feckin' sense to me... Ah, well. 2:00 AM. Gotta go to bed 'fore my parents get home... [ Friday, March 26, 2004 23:32: Message edited by: Faelor Zyrusticae ] Posts: 13 | Registered: Wednesday, September 11 2002 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Saturday, March 27 2004 00:31
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ef got the gist, it was merely the concept of "realism" that aggravates me. Reality exists, at least as a psyche necessity. Human perception of our world may be flawed, thus leading us to believe a "false" reality, at the end of the day, I doubt anyone could tell. Or if it even matters. What humans as a whole have to deal with is the now and future, the "current perception" to put simply. Heck, even twenty years ago there were some people who still believed the world was flat, there is even a political movement today based on the perception. As for an awareness of it, I would say that a stable (relatively of course) mind is unecessary to be concious of it. I'm probably the least sane person I know, but I can grasp facts, physics and philosophy (including meta-physics) better than anyone I know. I have managed to develop dozens of credible philosophical theories about "reality", the world that we live in and life in general. Yet I would never consider myself to be even close to the norm in any way, shape or form. As for bluntness, coherence and honesty, I can say this: I am so blunt you could pick me up and use me as a murder weapon, I try to be as honest as I can except in certain situations I believe that overall it would be better if I were not. Coherence... coherence... well for any of you who have seen a broad range of my posts, you will know it comes and goes for me. Then again I would consider the quality of information more important than the overall coherence by which it's divulged. But I supposed I could be the only "sensible" person about this. Oh Well. Meh, bleh, feh. Either which. For those who are lasy and didn't read this post I'll give a summary: Magic hippos are great unless they're either: created by harmful drug-induced hallucinations or sitting on you. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2628
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written Saturday, March 27 2004 04:43
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I think ef hit the nail on the head when she talked about a stable mind. That's what I meant by rational thought processes. I certainly didn't mean 'realism' - God forbid! I'm too much of an idealist to be realistic. I'm not normal, I don't want to be normal - it would be so boring. I fully intend to be an eccentric old lady one day  I think I've got the eccentricity thing starting to happen for me, just need to wait for the old part now.-------------------- We meet and part now over all the world; we, the lost company, take hands together in the night, forget the night in our brief happiness, silently. -- Judith Wright My website Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3621
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written Saturday, March 27 2004 07:26
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> Unless you're being hunted down and KNOW > you're gonna be killed (lol, fat chance) Why choose this violent example ? (it is not the subject of the thread ?). And why don't you write it another way : if you know you will have to kill/torture (like during the two world wars), is it better to accept it or refuse it (and sometimes being killed by your chiefs ?) ? > I am so blunt you could pick me up and use me as a murder weapon From what I know, violence calls violence... > WHY THE HELL would nature screw around so > badly during these years? Looks like the original question of the thread (hopefully it didn't go so far). Yes, no sense, but that happens. But now you can think about it, and maybe find reasons. After a suicide, that is the other way around, surviving people ask why and try to find reasons. In both cases (still pretty different), searching for reasons may be painful. So why do we do it ? My only explanation is that we want to avoid that it happens twice. Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, October 30 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4154
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written Saturday, March 27 2004 08:04
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I have a friend who has tried to commit suicide twice using tylenol... She was despairing because of a relationship of hers had gone wrong. I think these attempts were due more to a flawed perspective of reality than how much willpower she had. She rarely thinks logically even on her good days, though she is better now. As it was said earlier, suicidal people nearly always have flaws in their reasoning, mostly due to strong emotion. Suicide is all about emotion; too much emotion almost always causes foolish decisions. If you're thinking clearly and you're suicidal, then you must be facing the prospect of absolute torture for the remaining years of your life or death. Few are facing this, but many think they are. -------------------- You're a moron if you think I'm not. Posts: 213 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1892
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written Saturday, March 27 2004 16:40
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Some would commit suicide becauseof a lack of emotion, and are disgusted by their lack of intelegence and emotion. The things that make people human. Rational, but basic idea, is agreeing with public opinians. I have found that people who don't give their own take on ideas are more likely to not go on to do wonderful things with their life, as they are following; never taking risks, Real social ones, I mean. Never leading in any ideas, allways seen as just another kid. I hate to summerize a topic as disputed as this, but suicide is a desicion made in despairation by those who either want to leave their guilt and despair behind, or genuinely want to die. There are times when Despair takes over, especial to the insecure, and delacate thoughts are concived. Questions are asked about life, the world, and the universe as we know it. I hate to be humerous, but the answer is 42. -------------------- Share this Dragon If you do, Then Lucky End For them and You ----------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ?Alorael, whose addiction is going strong. The nice thing about liquid skribbane extract is that it's far more concentrated. It only takes a few gallons to get his fix, whereas chewing leaves would take forever. Literally. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fall under the shadow Posts: 98 | Registered: Sunday, September 15 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, March 27 2004 18:11
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Whew! Grammar, people, grammar! Or at least spelling! I find it hard to take a topic seriously when it contains so many posts that are virtually unreadable, and this is a topic that should be taken seriously. quote:I suspect you're (at least verbally) confusing insanity with general wackiness. There are people who are wacky (myself probably included), and then there are people who are genuinely mentally ill. These are two separate (and not mutally exclusive) categories. The mentally ill are the category far more likely to commit suicide. Objective reality is hard to define, but most of us accept it in our daily lives. Likewise, being rational is hard to define, but we can often point to people who are completely irrational. Also, that quote is from Tennyson, not Shakespeare, In Memoriam AHH (verses 27 and 85). I also like William Riker's response (in Star Trek TNG) to that quote: "Try it sometime!" quote:For this I award you the Certificate of Redundancy Certificate!  Seriously, though, it's sort of a matter of how you phrase things. It's probably not a good idea to say to a schizophrenic person, "You're crazy. Totally delusional. Out of your mind. Nuts." Even if you're someone that the person really trusts, you might have to work seeking help into the conversation somehow. Similar things apply to other forms of mental illness, clinical depression included.-------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Sunday, March 28 2004 10:17
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Mentally ill? No. But insane? Definately. I am not confusing the two. I am a mild psychotic with obbsessive tendencies. I can get extremely hacked off, extremely quickly. Whenever I do something, no matter how long it takes me, I will do it and do it right, however many times I have to redo it or however long it takes, I will not quit. As for "wacky", I will say this: "I am too poor to be an eccentric and too commercialized to be just plain weird. Therefore the North Sea is stupid." I am going to leave "objective reality" alone because as you say, it is hard to define and you may mean it in a different way. As for (ir)rationallity, they are just social norms you like everyone else in the world have been brought up never to question. I can spot the people who are more irrational than rational though, it isn't hard - they're called human beings. Okay, I mistook Tennyson for Shakespeare. Big whoop! And I don't like to interfere with your Trekkie upbringing... but I will anyway; that's actually one of my main guidelines for living - I adapted it to, if had been written as such, a glorified carpe diem - seize the day - except with this version it's more - grab it by the throat before it kicks you in the gonads. And now you mock(!) That is a perfectly sensible and to the point phrase, or having you been having trouble with that word recognition class and have now forgotten to read? Anyway, scientific research has shown that most clinically insane people do recognise their insanity on some level. Coming straight out and saying it is alot better than being so blooming timid you just ignore it and use the magically amazing (and really, really useless) technique of "hoping it goes away". Oh yeah! Rantilicious! Oh yeah! Meh. Ah go quack ya rahgoose mk5. SotH: I would say that instead of using some random answer you picked up out of a book, using thought this answer springs to my mind: "It is whatever you believe it is. Whether you believe the universe is rounded or shaped like Bill Oddie's left ear, for if you - even if it is you alone - truly believe something, then that is what it is, even is it is only so in your eyes." Iaoran: I am not a violent person, aggresive, not violent (though I am certainly not a pacifist, because that, while admirable, is no use in a sticky situation). And what do you know? What does violence call violence? I was making the most related analogy I could think of. Don't know about France, but in nearly every crime series over here the murder weapon is invariably large and blunt. It sprung to mind. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3220
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written Sunday, March 28 2004 10:50
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quote:I could be wrong (won't be the first time, sigh) but isn't not knowing you aren't sane a sign of being insane? Only insane people think they are sane, or something. Posts: 437 | Registered: Sunday, July 13 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Sunday, March 28 2004 10:58
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I only said at some level and your point is VERY accurate. YES OF COURSE! WHERE HAVE I BEEN GETTING IT WRONG ALL THESE YEARS? EVERYONE WHO CLAIMS THEY'RE SANE ARE IN FACT INSANE!! IT'S OH SO PERFECTLY CLEAR NOW! SO WHAT, ARE THE PEOPLE WHO CLAIM THEY'RE INSANE SANE NOW? WHOAH MY HEAD IS SPINNING FROM THE MENTAL G FORCES! The bold bit is sarcasm by the way. I consider sanity and insanity in the same basket as rationallity - it's all just social norms. Also similar I would say that humans as a specie are more towards insane than sane. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, March 28 2004 11:44
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quote:You attack my claim to literacy when you have already mispelled the word "definitely." And if I'm not mistaken, dareva was joking about that quote:but not about quote:And, er, one other thing: quote:Have you been clinically diagnosed? Because otherwise your claim to this condition is disputable. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3220
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written Sunday, March 28 2004 11:48
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You're right, Kelandon. I suppose I could have added a few graemlins for clarification, but I didn't feel the need. Posts: 437 | Registered: Sunday, July 13 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4167
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written Sunday, March 28 2004 17:45
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Sorry about the one-post wonder, and for not reading the entire topic, but it's a very important topic, and one that needs to be discussed. Concerning suicide, there are several causes, and each person is different. Suicide could be caused by several things. I once saw a statistic that 80% of suicides occur without any prior sign. This leads people to assume that most suicides occur within a few hours of suicidal thoughts. Of course because we can not get into the minds of one who has committed suicide, we can not be certain. Analyzing: Suicide can be a sign of weakness, or rather a lack of strength (or a belief in lack of strength) to face a seemingly insurmountable problem. If one believes they CAN NOT face the problem, the person tries to escape the problem. In this situation, suicide is an escapist action, which is generally considered a weakness by society, though I prefer the statement 'lack of strength', because, depending on the problem, the suicidal person may be very strong, just not strong enough. Also, for the statement that Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. I would presume that suicidal people are attracted to suicide because it IS a permanent solution. It's the only thing needed to end all pain. Unfortunately, it also ends all joy, and causes pain to those nearby. Concerning the not thinking after suicide: That is presuming that Deity is non-existant, which is what I presume most suicidal people hope - because most religions believe that suicide will be punished in an afterlife (including Islam, strangely enough, so those suicide bombers in Pakistan are actually disobeying their beliefs.) If afterlife does exist, thinking still exists and thus the pain may still exist, except this time there WILL be no end. I myself was scared away from suicide due to the fact that an afterlife might possibly exist (showing that if religion is false, it is still important to constrain personalities that are dangerous to society). Concerning all people being insane: True, no one person is truly rational, but to be truly rational would be to know ALL truth. OK, so that's not quite true. Whether one is considered rational or not (or insane or not, for that matter) is decided by society. I am sure there are some suicidal people out there who have compared the pain of life to the pain of death, and come to a rational conclusion. On the other hand, those who commit suicide based off of a single event are more likely to have their thoughts clouded, or disrupted from normal behavior by shock, emotions, and other things. Last words to say: we must all be ready to help those who might commit suicide. Suicide usually comes to those we least expect it of, so we must be ready to console, and to help these people through their rough life. A suicidal person who talks to you about their thoughts does not truly wish to die, they just want the pain and suffering to end. Also remember: A rational suicidalist may not talk about suicide, and will also try to appear otherwise, because they know that letting others know decreases their chances of success. There I've gone and done it again, talking about what I think on a subject. I would like to appologize in advanced to any whom may be offended by my writing, and would also remind those who read this that this writing is ENITRELY OPINION, and as such I do not claim any of this to be true. Posts: 2 | Registered: Sunday, March 28 2004 08:00 |