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Pied Piper Project IV: A New Bot in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #25
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

quote:
Originally written by Dr. Johann Georg Faust:

(I'm not Google :P ).
Pssh, only for lack of effort. :P

How about paid rankings?

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The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Saddam Hussein's Execution in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #29
quote:
Originally written by Arancaytar:

To say anyone has an execution "coming" for improper conduct in a trial is ludicrously ignorant and shows you do not understand the justice system at all.
There is no serious justice aspect to the demo version of a trial that Saddam underwent or to the RL execution of this old man. It would have helped to bring out the facts and have Saddam try to justify his deeds, like a bad joke that becomes more evidently a bad joke the more you explain it. This might have made it obvious to ALL Iraqis that he had been wrong. Now it is just evident that he was killed as a US-marionette who knew too much - in time for the Democratic convention on Jan 4 - and with the last appeal decided by a US judge.

As the farce nature of the whole procedure became more apparent every day, Saddam had to be disposed of just to end it. A desperate measure of incapacity.

Just compare what was achieved in Chile by having the public controversy about Pinochet's immunity fought out by peaceful means rather than the CIA-methods he used himself.

Just compare what was achieved in Serbia by having Milosevic stand trial in The Hague and then publishing the proof that he was not killed.

Just compare what the truth and reconciliation commissions have achieved in South Africa.

Just compare what a testimonial the living and imprisoned Hess was in Germany for the continuing (if token) commitment never again let the country to slide into fascism.

I do agree that Ford's decision to pardon Nixon gave away a similar chance. The failure to bring the evil workings of the Vietnam War to some closure may be at the heart of the decades of tragedy that may be perceived as US foreign policy with Saddam a particularly long-lived marionette.

As Ahmad Tibi writes in ynetnews
quote:
Iraq could have continued to be, despite its totalitarian regime, a strong country and possibly even an element that could have assisted a genuine regional peace process.

The irony of faith is that currently there are two people rubbing their hands with glee as they watch the noose around Saddam Hussein's neck – George Bush and Ahmadinejad. And that says it all.


[ Sunday, December 31, 2006 14:08: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

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The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #93
I would like to mention that the Neonazis in Germany "defend" their racist attacks with "superiority" of the Aryan race. Just last week an 18-year-old Belgian from an ultraright Vlaams extremist background (his aunt is a palamentarian for "Vlaa(sp?)ms Belang") shot 3 immigrants (killing a mother with her 2-year-old) to fight for the prevailance of his ethnic community.

I do confound the individual level with the competition between cultures but we do need some consistency between the values within our culture and how we deal vis-à-vis others be it at whatever level.
In the extreme, the Darwinism among humans is a major point of "Mein Kampf" and I had hoped we had consensus that that was evil.

[ Tuesday, May 16, 2006 04:32: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

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The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #89
quote:
Originally written by PoD person:

quote:
Originally written by Khoth:

quote:
Originally written by PoD person:

No one would raise an uproar today if developers displaced a hippie commune to build housing, particularly if it were low-income housing or some worthy project of that nature
Since it's the same thing, I take it then that you also wouldn't have a problem with a group of hippies knocking down your neighbourhood so they could have a commune there (so long as they give you the option of joining the commune, of course).

I'm not that attached to my neighborhood. I hope I'd adapt.

I does not have to be your neighborhood. Are you a lone wolf or do you live in any community?
How much of your identity is related to this community? How much of your identity would be destroyed if the community were dissolved?

Two extremes come to my mind, namely
1.the nearby village that is being resettled as such into new homes paid for by the strip mining company and
2.the Katrina victims - you know more about the "victim"-connotations and racial implications in this context than I do, I presume.
These are not typical spiderwebbers but include less than upward mobile not necessarily independent people. Their loss was not only in quality of life but in the basis of their livelihood that cannot be recompensated.
Take for example the elder members of your or your buddies' families. I guess they cling as much to their living quarters rather than being transplanted to a nursing home as do the elderly in my surround. They do not do so because of phlegm but because they cannot adapt anymore.
Do you imply that their life is not worth living anymore because they can no longer adapt? If so, I invite you to go to the one who is closest to your heart and tell her straight into her face how much you care that she has to leave.

[ Tuesday, May 16, 2006 00:49: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #84
quote:
Originally written by Khoth:

quote:
Originally written by PoD person:

I do think, though, that Western Europeans were not committing some horrible crime against humanity in taking the Native Americans' land.
So if you want something someone else has, and you don't like the way they're using it, it's okay to take it for yourself by force?

Rules that hold for indivduals do not translate that easily to cultures. Insisting on such a translation reminds my of the personification of nature by the greek gods. It is like singing in the dark and covering up what nobody does not know.

The rules that apply to the individual derive from a community that is the basis for survial for the individual. Where is a similar dependence of nations - or even cultures? What does translate is the concept of trust. If the US were seen to make an honest effort to accommodate the Native American culture this would generate trust in fair deals and reduce the clandestine if not the open Anti-Americanism.

The point is that the "problem with the Native Americans" concerns much more "us" and the consistency of our values and our credibility than it is about "them".

[ Monday, May 15, 2006 13:04: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #81
.

[ Monday, May 15, 2006 04:09: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #80
quote:
Originally written by Slartreuse:

How the heck was the fact that the Romans fought lots of indigenous peoples and then incorporated them into their empire responsible for WW2? Displacement of Native Americans certainly wasn't responsible for it.
I did not say so.
I referred to Darwinism which I see in WW1, the Versailles Treaty and, caricatured, in Nazi race idiology vs. the prisoners dilemma.
Even before WWII, the fact that General Motors supplied Nazi Germany with a technique deemed necessary to invade Poland showed that the nationalistic categories did no longer apply.
After WWII, WMD have changed everything.

In particular, I object to the claim that because we live in a world resulting from history, "the historic principles" must be adhered to. First we must understand how to translate historic principles to our current situation.

[ Monday, May 15, 2006 04:10: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
"Policing" ourselves? in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #98
quote:
Originally written by Yours Sincerely, The Boogyman.:

The human race has, and always will be primitive in ways. The strongest man will win. ... clip ... Adolf Hitler.
No. We have survived as social and cultural communities.
Think of the survival of the Jews over the millenia.
Then think of the Nazi secular and other Millenarianism.
Survival does not hinge on individual strength but on intact families and grass-roots communities.
Think of our cultural values as rules derived from experience over the ages.
H. had to fail because he had no insight in the importance of values that went beyond egocentric hybris. He did proclaim:
quote:
What we must fight for is to safeguard the existence and the reproduction of our race...so that our people may mature for the fulfillment of the mission alloted it by the creator of the universe.
Notice his ignorance of culture in favor of biologic race. Races are not associated with values. Even so, it was all bogus because his whole time scale was "personal" rather than eternal. This was observed by Pope Pius XII:
quote:
Ich müsste mich sehr, sehr täuschen, wenn dies hier ein gutes Ende nehmen sollte. Dieser Mensch ist völlig von sich selbst besessen, alles, was ihm nicht dient, verwirft er, was er sagt und schreibt, trägt den Stempel seiner Selbstsucht, dieser Mensch geht über Leichen und tritt nieder, was ihm im Weg ist - ich kann nur nicht begreifen, dass selbst so viele von den Besten in Deutschland dies nicht sehen, oder wenigstens aus dem, was er schreibt und sagt, eine Lehre zu ziehen - wer von all diesen hat überhaupt das haarsträubende Buch »Mein Kampf« gelesen?" - über Adolf Hitler, 1929
This was epitomizedby a leading Nazi (cannot come up with the name at the moment) as "Mein Gesetz heißt Adolf Hitler", i.e. "My law is called Adolf Hitler". In the end H. deemed the Germans not worthy of himself and ordered explicitly complete selfdestruction. Göring was similar. Think of his words upon being captured "At least 12 years of a decent life." These guys maximized individual "strength".
Then read what Thuryl rightly observed in the post above.

What you admire as primitive strength is just inadequate compensation for lack of socialisation of a loser, imho. Watch out there are more around!

[ Monday, May 15, 2006 03:35: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #77
quote:
Originally written by PoD person:

I have a basically Darwinist attitude towards cultures
This attitude was pervasive before culminating in WWII when it was found to lead to a lose-lose situation. At latest since the Soviet Union went nuclear, it has been recognized that the various cultural entities are imprisoned in a common dilemma namely that destruction of one's adversary entails the destruction of one's own. We are in a prisoner's dilemma already on a global scale, only not all of us have understood that - in particular the more religiously inclined not to say the fundamentalists, like Islamists, Shas, the Religious Right Crusaders, etc.
quote:
Originally written by PoD person:

Western Europe exists as it does primarily because the Romans practiced as much "cultural genocide" as they could and I defy anyone to tell me the continent isn't better for it.
Just because our world at present is the result of "Evolution of the (cultural) Species" does not mean this will not lead to Armageddon. So how about using our human intelligence to design some forms of cooperation between different cultures?

With respect to Europe the lesson was learned when the Morgenthau Plan was rejected in favor of the Marshall plan. However, I am not going to lecture on the consequences - I just draw your attention to the long military experience of George Marshall
quote:
General of the Army George Catlett Marshall, United States Army (Ret.) GCB (December 31, 1880 – October 16, 1959) was an American military leader and Secretary of State best remembered for his leadership in the Allied victory in World War II ...
George C. Marshall was born into a middle-class family in Uniontown, Pennsylvania, and was educated at Virginia Military Institute. He entered the US Army after graduation, rising to the position of Army Chief of Staff, and served continuously, including in World War I (on the staff of General John Pershing) and World War II, until his retirement in 1945.
I wonder why nobody appears to have drawn similar lessons from the Vietnam War as George Marshall and collegues did from WWI and WWII. Their reality based politics (Realpolitik) embracing "multicultur" seems to have evaporated. Maybe it takes the distance of 6000km to realize this tragedy that I count as an inadvertant main cause of world terrorism.
quote:
Originally written by PoD person:

"cultural genocide" is to me an offensive appropriation of a word whose true meaning should not be trivialized to such an extent.
The word "genocide" had an intrinsic generic meaning, namely "killing of a genus" before it was used in connection with the Holocaust/Shoah. Using it in whatever other contexts should be as little offensive as mentioning that other victims have been killed because of their race during human history.
quote:
Originally written by C. P.:

Here's a link to a page about the Carlisle Indian Industrial School
Where is the link?

[ Monday, May 15, 2006 02:13: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #73
quote:
Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

OH MY GOD

TOPIC DRIFT

QUICKLY FORM A TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMITTEE

OOC:Is this the terrified all-capitals-league striking "back" preemptively before the discussion could address the topic in serious detail? How come that I have the déjà-vu of topics eliciting the same furious "tl, dr" response in various guises?

IC: The Truth and Recociiation Committees have been established in South Africa following a remarkably nonviolent demise of the Apartheid Regime. Together with the peace process in Northern Ireland the demise of Apartheid may serve as a model on how to solve a problem peacefully that our generation has inherited from an empirical past with "superior" immigrants of a different religion or race vs. some "native" or "inferior" population. Zimbabwe and Israel/Palestine are the bad counterexamples at present. The suggestion of Truth and Recociiation is right on topic, imho, even if empirialist evil has left little basis for any realistic reconstitution in the US after the eradication of the Native Americans. I am wary of mentioning Germany after the holocaust in this context, because of personal bias.

I am somewhat proud to mention that the first common history book for highschools is being published now by the former "arch-enemy" nations of France and Germany.

[ Sunday, May 14, 2006 11:56: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #69
quote:
Originally written by Indifferent Salmon:

now we seem to prefer discussions of economics over them.
It is all about economics, i.e. who should pay, is it not? The problem is that the economic "we" at present is much more difficult to define than the cultural "we". Even with the cultural "we", the passing of generations makes a huge difference.

How much are you personally willing to pay in order to redress past evildoing of your cultural predecessors and how much do you think a democratically elected government could spend without compromising on reelection chances?

Maybe compensation has to go beyond financial support in order to be effective, even not be delegated to the government but start at the grassroots level. You do not want to perpetuate some collective victimhood but allow a cultural counterpart to recuperate including self-esteem and belief in their capabilities. This might even put healers of Anti-americanism out of business.

[ Saturday, May 13, 2006 22:40: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #65
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

The problem is the "in a couple of years" part. The market corrects itself eventually, but how long does it take, and what damage is done in the meantime? That's hard to predict.
And it is even harder to speed up the correction. A well functioning market mechanism is extremely intelligent on a short term scale but the fact that long term public costs are not accounted for is a sure road to desaster. We need the desasters in order to arrive at a consensus about priorities. The problem is that more or less democratically legitimized administrations need not do much better than the market. It starts with the public (i.e. we) who do not want to know, it goes on with limited election periods.
A new interesting Ansatz is emission trading. Do you think this will survive or spread to other sectors?

[ Saturday, May 13, 2006 11:37: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #59
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

The problem is: if America doesn't manufacture anything, what can it export to pay for all the t-shirts, computers, and soap that it's importing?
Government bonds, real estate ownership, shares, lobbying service, etc. The Chinese have been the biggest buyer of US-bonds for many years.

The long term effect is just that the US electorate's interest become less and less decisive in determining goverment policy in comparison to what big funds manager decide and are payed for to decide under global aspects. Do not blame them for being unamerican, because you would not invest with them either if they put America first instead of maximizing profits.

My point is that the economic decisions are being made on the global scale since decades and the governments compete with each other to create favorable conditions for investors while trying to keep the better-off minority of the population who vote happy. They cannot just raise taxes to pay for better education because a lot of volatile funds would just shift elsewhere and the US would have to raise interest rates to keep the US$ attractive. They might save on hand-outs and gain on future taxes if they started to educate the loser social groups but ...
1. investing in a tax cut would do more to increase party donations.
2. the investors would rather educate six Indian software developers rather than one US native for the same money.
3. educating the underdogs might lift their awareness to the level that they might go and vote - and most likely for the wrong party.

Do you need a special course to understand the Spiel?

quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

The danger isn't that China will stop trading with us, it's that if our only export is dollars, the value of that export could drop quite dramatically if the people get less interested in this "product".

It is happening already. The Chinese have decided recently to decrease their investment of US government bonds and the US$ interest rate is on a long term rise. Do not be afraid that the Chinese sell their bonds suddenly because the US$ exchange rate would decline so that they would lose money.

quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

How long does it take to train a million illiterate school dropouts into highly-skilled factory workers? (Not even talking about time to build the factories themselves and the money to accomplish the transition.) The transition from service economy into a normal economy can't happen overnight, or even in a year.

Even if it could, where do you want to find the money? For investment you need TRUST. Trust is worth big $$$. And if you start to follow more national isolationist policies you lose the trust of international investors in reality-oriented politics - in fact the government might as well start to burn the money from your piggy-bank.

You want a positive way out for the Natives?

[sarcasm] Learn from the Israelis:More than 60 percent of Israeli Jews believe the government should encourage Arabs to leave the country. Just turn them into immigrants somewhere else. It is well established that immigrants do better.[/sarcasm]

[ Thursday, May 11, 2006 00:23: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #43
quote:
Originally written by *i:

the US has become a service economy, something that I feel to be unsustainable in the long term.
Sounds interesting but I do not fully understand. Would you care to explain?
The Swiss banking industry comes to my mind as a sustainable example.
Do you mean the example does not work in the US and not even for a more general notion of "service", e.g. software or research intensive pharmaceuticals.
Or do you mean the example is crap in itself?

[ Wednesday, May 10, 2006 01:09: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
"Policing" ourselves? in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #91
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by too kraut, don't read:

How would you react to some corresponding Swiftean sarcasm about H. failing to "complete" the Holocaust?
I ask for consistence in standards.

I'm pretty f-ing impressed that you hid your criticism of my post in this thread. Next time you have a problem with one of my posts, either suck it up or PM me.

It looks like your revival impressed a group of people. So, what is your agenda? Like the more read folks in here had noticed, I was making several points all at once, followed by a word of distaste to signify that the whole concept was undignified. I'd take the time to explain the whole cynical comment, but I can't seem to find it to be worth my time. Sorry. At least some other folks understood it.

Apparently this is taken to be a personal matter, so I should explain my personal sensitivity which may appear as an allergy. I stand by the part that is due to German education after WWII. More personally impressive were serious remarks that backed the Holocaust that I hit me like a bolt from the blue in conversation with otherwise "normal" people in Ireland and in Poland. I have no humor in anything that reminds me of that - even if it is by a misunderstanding.

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
"Policing" ourselves? in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #88
How would you react to some corresponding Swiftean sarcasm about H. failing to "complete" the Holocaust?
I ask for consistence in standards.

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Yom HaShoa in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #89
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

The only reason that the enormous Macedonian Empire didn't hold together under Alexander was that he died without an heir. The successor states were mostly ruled by Greeks for centuries afterwards.
Thank you for pointing that out and raising an interesting question - that does not belong here, however.

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #38
From what I observe in my personal surround, it is the family and the language that makes the difference. If I only knew how to engineer it.

Most Vietnamese in Germany came to East Germany decades ago and they tend to have jobs well below their formal educational level. A physicist running a travel agency would be a typical successful example. I am not sure those are realistic role models for Native Americans in the US.

What strikes me in the Russian Germans who come here, is that the girls are doing so much better in school and on the job market than the guys. The ideas about male dominance that they bring with them prove really an invisible burden that hinders their socialization.

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Yom HaShoa in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #86
Blitzkrieg or the modern "shock and awe" give initial success but consolidation of power requires much more. No, I will not mention the example before our eyes.
Was H.'s whole WWII endeavor not doomed in the long run from the invasion of Poland on, at latest?
The very idea of a permanent occupation by "Aryan Herrenmenschen" appears to me to belong in the stone age. Think of Alexander the Great and Napoleon. Just because the German troops were more mobile does not make a continuing occupation any easier to sustain unless there were local supporters - like Adenauer rather than Chalabi. Think of the decentralized power structures on the other hand.

[ Tuesday, May 09, 2006 09:53: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #34
Could it be that the problem is not related directly to the Native Americans (i.e. "First Nation Citizens" in Canada afaik) but by way of an inherited tendency to embrace ones fate in a holistic way rather than the inherited go and get attitude - possible born out of desperation - of immigrants.

The markers for discrimination that have been mentioned are social markers and they are correlated to those Native Americans who have not assimilated/melted into mainstreim society. Is this not a negative selection of the original Native Indian population? I am not saying that they themselves are to blame for their own fate and too bad. However, we need to understand the mechanism that perpetuates the problem or we will not be able to stop it.
Obviously, throwing money at the problem has not helped. Paternalism will not help either. We need to understand why Asian kids from first generation immigrants are more likely to win highschool science prizes and transfer the essence of the magic potion. I just do not believe that these things are determined genetically. Maybe a special contest program would get American Indian kids motivated in some discipline that connects to their tradition.There should be plenty of potential sponsors who could buy publicity in this way.

[ Tuesday, May 09, 2006 09:31: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
How would you deal with an acquainted killer? in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #39
Why should all our respective pieces "fit" together? We construct the personality in such a way as we hope it will appear appealing to our community. Some pieces we will never want to show or even admit to ourselves that they exist - until we break up and the relation to ourselves becomes desperate. In this context guilt is just the evildoer's assumption that (s)he will get away with it unnoticed - at least for some marvelous time. I understand that.
However, why would a slayer then call the police immediately afterwards, stay at the scene, and sink into utter despair? If it is in order to adopt a victim's role that would be more acceptable and ameliorate any retribution, it works on me: Something must have been broken since a long time and it makes me feel very sorry.

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The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Yom HaShoa in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #84
Internet info on the French Prelude to WWII

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The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
"Policing" ourselves? in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #82
I have occasion to revive this topic due to the following post:
quote:
Jumpin' Salmon ½ Man, ½ Amazing Member # 5755 written May 07, 2006 11:18 PM

Humans are gifted with the luxury of hindsight, and the feeling of emotional loss that may accompany it. It probably would have been "better" if native Americans had been 100% eliminated.
It would have meant much less suffering on the Rez, including the chronic alcoholism, drug addiction, and suicide that plague native Americans.
We could have marveled over artifacts such as spearpoints and pointed at intricate weavings or cave paintings and nodded sagely, confident that those long lost peoples were noble savages, one with the earth and able to communicate with the animals.

Bleagh.
I find this post is derogatory to a racial minority and violates the CoC. What do the oldbies think of this? Am I too sensitive? I do not want to be counted as a member of a forum where such offensive rubbish is posted.

[ Monday, May 08, 2006 08:37: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ]

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The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #14
quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:
Am I the only person who finds it absurd that a member of the "superior group" is talking about how the "superior group" can do nothing to help the problem?
1. The settlers proved superior because their group survived and multplied. Call it any other euphemism - I will not insist on the word.
2. I am Caucasian, but please do not count me as a member of the group that took the land from the American Native population. There are many group definitions that apply to the Pilgrim Fathers as well as me e.g. neither of them nor me have been to the Southpole. However, You appear to base my inclusion into this group on race. Please do not do that.
3. In the Yom HaShoa topic, we have turned to the question what opportunities were missed to stop H. from e.g. invading Poland. If you can pinpoint any potentially decisive intervention that was missed by a single individual that was aware of that, I would be most interested - in particular in any action that would not likely have resulted in the individual being ostracized for a seemingly pathological desire to drag the government through the mud at any given opportunity.
quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:
As much as we well and truly have not fixed the problem yet
I am on the same page with you about "the problem" even if it amounts to a Sisyphos task, just because it is worthwhile to try. Your goal of "fixing" the problem translates to abolishing gravity in Sisyphos' allegory, however, and that is a very tall order.
quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:
It is also indicative of a consciousness that we even discuss this sort of issue. How do we know what is morally wrong?
Good question! Because this is the way we were brought up and the values that we adopted from our family and culture were the ones that made our family and culture survive evolution.
quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:
We make society. If enough of "us" decide to help things, it becomes possible.
In theory you are right, however, the tricks of the survival game between cultures and nations cannot be changed by a majority vote - not to speak of exceptions to the rules or about enforcement. Let us take an individual example, namely the habeas corpus rights of Khalid Sheik Mohammed. I believe that waterboarding him is wrong, not only morally, and that the long term interest of the morally aware is to have him stand in a trial. I believe that it is impossible to get a majority supporting this - in principle impossible.
quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:
The only race I can *almost* see the world being better without are the whites.
I share your anger at the euthanasia argument to complete the genocide. Is this Order Mage again? However, you appear to bite the hand that feeds you. Your concept of "better" would not be available without "white" culture. Not in the present form.

[ Monday, May 08, 2006 08:02: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Native Americans in General
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #10
quote:
Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

If course, where exactly a right-wing Israeli gets off lecturing Americans on the treatment of the Amerinds - I don't precisely know.
Here comes the lecturing from a reality biased non-Israeli on the common theme of colonization. So a new class of immigrants invades with superior power in fire as well as economics and the corresponding disregard for the interests of the natives. There is no "right" of the underdog because there is no mechanism to enforce it, neither from within the superior group nor from the outside because morality does not come with a survival advantage for the interaction between classes in the same way as moral behavior of the individuals results in a survival advantage of the community as a wole.

The analogy between the interaction of individuals in a community and the interaction between nations does not carry in this respect, even if I hate to say so. The corresponding behavior that optimizes survival at the international level is not moral but Realpolitik. The question is:
Is the successful Realpolitician immoral or "guilty" and if so since when?
Has it changed due to the posthoc invention of the concept of "crimes against humanity" in the Nuremberg trials?
Anyway, the descendents of the victorious will all feel much better after shedding a crocodile tears.

[ Monday, May 08, 2006 01:17: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00

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