Native Americans
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Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
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written Monday, May 8 2006 13:07
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Well, as someone who HAS spent significant time in Oklahoma and whose wife is an American Indian, I can tell you that the idea that they're somehow at least as well off as the general population is absurd. According to the latest census, American Indians are twice as likely to live in poverty as non-Indian people (about 25% versus 12% of the overall US population). Yeah, there are a couple of tribes that are doing okay, but that represents the top of their wealth. The average American Indian is much poorer than the average American, and the average American Indian from one of the 39 Federally-recognized Tribal nations in Oklahoma is worse off than the average Oklahoman. And before you retort, consider that the United States of America as a legal obligation to provide Indians with social, medical and educational services to tribal members. Then again, perhaps you're arguing that the US should just ignore its legal obligations to the American Indians - which would hardly be an unprecedented position. Z -------------------- Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue? Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Monday, May 8 2006 13:30
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quote:Thanks for the link. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7067
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written Monday, May 8 2006 13:40
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As to saying that it's just a few rich tribes you could be right.(But, that means I'm living near every single one of them which seems highly unlikely.) As to saying there averagely poorer than the the average American as those stats say. Then with the help of government money the the last generation should have been okay. (On a different note how much does your wife make on government money?) Also have you ever thought that it's because of the government money that they're not doing good? Seriously they have every opperitunity to make money as the average white male if not more. Oh and i* that website didn't say much more to convince me than your actual post matter of fact it convinced me more that they should just become American citizens Without their own government. As for the trail of tears I have read about studied on it. Yes we were wrong but, the problem was then was that we wouldn't take them in as US citizens. Which is what we should do now. quote:Did you not see the :P Besides history is my favorite subject.(I was just that I could only think of jesse jackson but, now that I got him out of my head I can think of more than two for each side.) EDIT:All this typing you guys made me do see that is why I didn't post my reasons. [ Monday, May 08, 2006 13:45: Message edited by: Major ] -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Monday, May 8 2006 14:09
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quote:"could be right" is an understatement. You are basing your statements on observation alone. Realize that observation is not the best way to ascertain knowledge as you have a very limited sample size. I have a few questions: How much time have you spent on the reservations with the real people there? How many Native Americans do you know personally that would agree with your statements? quote:I'm afraid you have a very naive view of the world. Poverty cannot be solved by money alone, it requires a complete change in their society -- crime, drugs, alcoholism, poor education, lack of role models, depression, poor health, etc. These are all things that need to be solved before they have a chance of being back. quote:Really? How many Native Americans or other minorities you know share that view? You come off as a person who has a very black and white outlook. One has to realize that they don't have every opportunity. Your average person in poverty has: 1) A dysfunctional family 2) Parents (if they even are around) have addictions 3) Grave family financial troubles, can't afford nice internet and educational software 4) Poor schools, public education lets them down and even if they excel there, they still cannot compete with everyone else 5) Broken communities littered with crime, drugs 6) No positive outlook, you are taught to be cynical from the start Item number 4 has personally become very apparent to me. When I spent a few years helping out incoming engineering students, those that came from poor areas would be the most difficult. Statistically most would fail. Is it because they don't work or are not smart? Definitely not. They were at the top of their class, took the most advanced classes they had, but their school could not prepare them for college. An example is that most incoming engineers come in with some calculus. A lot of the students from poor areas didn't even learn trig yet because their school didn't even teach it. From what I've seen this thing is typical and only a small part of the problem. So how can you say that Native Americans, the worst off of all minorities has EVERY opportunity white males have? Virtually every statistic says otherwise. quote:I never brought up the issue about whether or not they should or should not be assimilated, that's a different discussion. All I was saying is that Native Americans are so far behind the rest of America and comparatively little has been done. Oh, also, your posts are somewhat hard to understand, please use a grammar checker. quote:Let's suppose we did as you say, make them full US citizens then what? Well, we're back to the same standing as African Americans but worse. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7067
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written Monday, May 8 2006 15:11
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Somehow I feel this will be a long post...... This is my last post here on this thread because it isn't smart to argue with a admin and I'm outnumbered here 3 to 1 and I don't feel like typing like I said earlier......(probably won't be my last post here though) quote:I think your right here. for 2 reasons 1: I'm not good at expressing myself well over the internet. 2:As we're in completely different places you can't look for yourself. quote:They don't all live on the reservation. (like I said before you don't have a clue what it's like out here[another reeson why I'm going to stop posting here]) quote:I haven't asked them before and I won't be able to for awhile. quote:I know that is part of my argument. By the way how would you get rid of it? Ok, I know that would take a long time to tell but, even if your idea would work it wouldn't be easy to do. quote:Agreed quote:Maybe your right as far as out of state. Not far away from my house is a place called firelake grocery it gives bonuses to all of its indian workers such as they start higher up the work chain,.... and there are places throughout the state like this some bigger some smaller but, as far as local jobs it wouldn't be hard to get a fair paying job. quote:I do have some issues that are black and white but, this one is certianly not. quote:True, I may never have the oppertunity to become president :) but, yes I understand what you are saying. quote:Agreed quote:I think everybody goes to the same schools here. quote:The first part of that I got lost in so I'll look at the second(not knowing what else to do)| Not every, But as many oppertunitys to move up. What statistics? quote:True quote:Far? no, little? yes. quote:Ok I'll start to do that. quote:No, not the same, the blacks weren't considered equal with the whites until awhile after that. thus breeding anger strife and scars that would continue for awhile after that. Oh, I enjoyed discusing this with you. :) EDIT: So much typing you guys put me through wait then why am I typing this. :confused: [ Monday, May 08, 2006 15:33: Message edited by: Major ] -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Monday, May 8 2006 16:54
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I really don't care how it is in one little isolated part of Oklahoma, it's nice, but irrelevant to the big picture. Sure, maybe where you live Native Americans are doing fine, but everywhere else things are horrible and that's what matters. They are far behind. For statistics, go to the US census bureau or do a literature search on the social sciences. See for yourself where people are outside of your bubble. There's a major problem, you may not see it day to day, but it's there and denying it does not help. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7067
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written Monday, May 8 2006 17:44
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I knew this would happen. I am posting on this thread. Oh well it was bound to happen. quote:Isolated part of oklahoma? No, most of Oklahoma. Now, I'm not saying all of Oklahoma. But, yes your most likely right for all the other of the 49 states. quote:Ah, yes, finnaly (I always spell it that way) a agreement. (somewhat) Let me quickly try to clearify where I stand first, things with the indians are not perfect here and could use alot of help but, nothings being accomplished by handing out money to every indian around here. 2nd I can not get over the felling that you're either being sarcastic or you're upset(slightly) though the only thing that offended me was the "of your bubble" so good night and good luck! -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Monday, May 8 2006 18:37
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Crap on a stick. I have lost my post for the second time now! Stupid "Blah blah blah is not allowed. Please click your browser's back button to return." Time for the short short version. In Canada, the government tries to fix the problem, ineffectively. Giving equal job opportunity only goes so far. And giving eighteen years olds a lump sum payment is really, really stupid. I could say more (or... did... twice...), but I propose that we make this thread like the "Environment Questions" threads. How do we solve the specific problems facing the native community, such as: poverty, unemployment, lack of incentive, poor living conditions, crime rate, and more? -------------------- That is it. From now on, all posts go in Word first. Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Monday, May 8 2006 23:38
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Major, if this pabulum is indeed what passes for an understanding of demographics, statistics, and American history in the Sooner State, it becomes clear to me how very accurate your assertions on the comparative good fortune of your indigenous neighbors are. [ Monday, May 08, 2006 23:39: Message edited by: The Worst Man Ever ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Tuesday, May 9 2006 09:30
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Could it be that the problem is not related directly to the Native Americans (i.e. "First Nation Citizens" in Canada afaik) but by way of an inherited tendency to embrace ones fate in a holistic way rather than the inherited go and get attitude - possible born out of desperation - of immigrants. The markers for discrimination that have been mentioned are social markers and they are correlated to those Native Americans who have not assimilated/melted into mainstreim society. Is this not a negative selection of the original Native Indian population? I am not saying that they themselves are to blame for their own fate and too bad. However, we need to understand the mechanism that perpetuates the problem or we will not be able to stop it. Obviously, throwing money at the problem has not helped. Paternalism will not help either. We need to understand why Asian kids from first generation immigrants are more likely to win highschool science prizes and transfer the essence of the magic potion. I just do not believe that these things are determined genetically. Maybe a special contest program would get American Indian kids motivated in some discipline that connects to their tradition.There should be plenty of potential sponsors who could buy publicity in this way. [ Tuesday, May 09, 2006 09:31: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ] -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, May 9 2006 10:59
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quote:As somebody mentioned in "president" thread, an important reason Asians and Jews do so well in school is strong family support. The parents force children to study hard. And since the culture places high value on education (at least for Jews, don't know about Asians), children are also more motivated themselves. Unfortunately, American schools don't force students to work hard, so if parents don't force them, and students themselves don't care, you end up with high school graduates who can't pass a basic literacy test. Financial incentives would be good, but every carrot also needs a stick. For example, tying a part of welfare payments to how well kids do in school. (To discourage them from dropping out to get a job, or stay on welfare.) Of course this would work only if we actually fix the school system, pay teachers enough that not only those who couldn't get a better job would go into teaching, etc. And that's unlikely to happen. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Tuesday, May 9 2006 15:32
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quote:I think punishing people for being on welfare is odd, but that's just me. If you need it, you need it. And the reason Asian and Jewish kids do well in school isn't 'family support'. The Asian and Jewish kids that come here with money do quite well in school. But then, you're talking (like any good, over-broadening American) about cases with strong exceptions. Take the Jews. The western European Jews - the Germans especially - came to the country with a bit of money, a fair education, a good living standard, etc. We're talking some variant on middle class, no lower than lower middle class. When America started getting exodoi from the Russian pogroms, on the other hand - the ones that made it here had next to nothing, were typically illiterate and superstitious, and generally had neither the means nor the inclination to learn the language. Within the Jewish community in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, there was profound intranecine bigotry between the Western and Eastern Jews. And the Russians and Poles and suchlike tend to remain poorer and worse-integrated than the Germans and the French and suchlike. Take the Asians, for another example. The 'model minority'. But that's because the 'model minority' had a decent standard of life. The groups nobody talks about when you hear 'model minority' are the Vietnamese - the only large immigrant group to have come over for some reason besides middle-class advancement (refugees etc.) The Chinese and Japanese and whatnot tended to be literate, capable with large numbers, all that kind of thing. The Vietnamese? They had to learn that once they got here. And they had no money with which to do so. Moral of the story? There's a cultural influence on education and assimilation. But by and large, the 'successful' minorities are the wealthy ones. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, May 9 2006 15:57
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quote:Except for the fact that most Russian immigrants I know, including my own family, came to the US with almost nothing, English not good enough to pass a job interview right away (not even talking about lack of interviewing skills), and professional skills that needed retraining to be able to work in America. (You couldn't just go from an engineering job in USSR to an engineering job in America.) And before you tell me that "engineers are rich middle-class people", don't forget that USSR was a communist country that valued workers more than any of those paper-pushers and engineers were paid less than factory workers. quote:That's the key difference here. If I understand you correctly, Chinese and Japanese parents were literate, while Vietnamese weren't. Literate parents forse their children to study. Illiterate parents forse their children to get jobs. quote:I guess my idea about payments tied to school performance wasn't well phrased. The idea wasn't to punish people on welfare but to make sure portion of government assistance designated for children could be collected only if children were enrolled in school, to make financial incentive for getting at least a high-school diploma. (In a way similar to regular welfare that can be collected only if the recepient is looking for work, taking classes, etc.) [ Tuesday, May 09, 2006 16:09: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Tuesday, May 9 2006 17:16
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From what I observe in my personal surround, it is the family and the language that makes the difference. If I only knew how to engineer it. Most Vietnamese in Germany came to East Germany decades ago and they tend to have jobs well below their formal educational level. A physicist running a travel agency would be a typical successful example. I am not sure those are realistic role models for Native Americans in the US. What strikes me in the Russian Germans who come here, is that the girls are doing so much better in school and on the job market than the guys. The ideas about male dominance that they bring with them prove really an invisible burden that hinders their socialization. -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, May 9 2006 17:21
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quote:Careful about that sort of thing. Australia currently has a severe shortage of skilled tradesmen (plumbers, electricians, etc.) partly because too many people are encouraged to go into higher education when they're not really suited for it, and alternatives like apprenticeship programs have picked up a social stigma. Not everybody is cut out to be a lawyer, and society wouldn't function if everyone became one. Is there a level of education that everybody needs in order to participate competently in society? Well, yeah -- basic literacy and numeracy are important for pretty much everyone. But beyond that, a lot of kids are learning a lot of things that they're never realistically going to use. [ Tuesday, May 09, 2006 17:25: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, May 9 2006 18:00
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quote:The reason people say American schools are awaful is that it's possible here to graduate highschool without basic literacy. There is a large controversy in California right now about a new high school graduation exam. The exam tests basic literacy and very basic math. There are some schools where even "good" students are failing. The richest state of the world's largest superpower has school system so bad that even "good" students can't pass basic literacy test to graduate! So while I agree with you that not everybody should get a university degree, unfortunately America isn't going to have the problem you are describing any time soon. Here, making sure all kids finish high school and do as well as they can, given the school system, will just guarantee basic literacy. [ Tuesday, May 09, 2006 18:04: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, May 9 2006 20:29
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quote:Interestingly enough, you're half-wrong. America is on the verge of having the same problem. The people who don't finish high school also don't go to vocational school; they tend to work minimum-wage jobs or be unemployed or do something generally worse than work in the trades. We're very near a massive shortage of trained electricians and plumbers and carpenters and the like, although few people talk about it. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, May 9 2006 21:11
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quote:Agreed. We are very short on the certain skilled labor aspects because the US has become a service economy, something that I feel to be unsustainable in the long term. Add to this that the demand for technical skills is increasing and the amount of people going into these fields is decreasing. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Wednesday, May 10 2006 01:08
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quote:Sounds interesting but I do not fully understand. Would you care to explain? The Swiss banking industry comes to my mind as a sustainable example. Do you mean the example does not work in the US and not even for a more general notion of "service", e.g. software or research intensive pharmaceuticals. Or do you mean the example is crap in itself? [ Wednesday, May 10, 2006 01:09: Message edited by: too kraut, don't read ] -------------------- The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference. Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine) Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Wednesday, May 10 2006 05:15
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A service economy is one where the primary source of jobs are things such as retail, finance, restaurants, taxi drivers, etc. In other words, they provide services to the populace rather than create exportable goods per se. These are jobs that do not generally provide exports. Things like manufacturing, mining, and farming are production based jobs as they create an outflow of goods that can be exported. A society needs goods, it can either make them itself or import them. Just importing everything does not work because it creates a net outflow of resources; since you have to pay the producers for imports, eventually you run out of goods to exchange. Of course, there are many jobs that do not fall cleanly into the two categories. The Swiss banking, or international banking in general is one such example. In that case, the service acts more as an exportable good as people external to the Swiss economy are willing to pay for the service. I'd consider software developer, book writer, and pharmacy researcher to be a production jobs as they are part of the creation of goods. I guess another way to look at a particular job is to say if they are a net producer or a net consumer. Exports are on the producer side and imports are on the consumer balance. Way back when, everyone for the most part had a zero balance as they sustained themselves. Civilization has allowed this balance to shift such that people were allowed to be on either side just so that overall the balance worked out to be zero or slightly positive on the producer side. Even this way has its flaws as one could argue about what belongs in the balance. Either way, economies that have a negative balance must import. This, in the long run, makes these economies poorer. So when I say that the current US economy is not sustainable in the long term, I mean that eventually the drain on resources to other economies will cause problems. [ Wednesday, May 10, 2006 05:17: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Wednesday, May 10 2006 06:45
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quote:Your demography of the Chinese is just plain wrong. The bulk of the Chinese population in the Western United States comprises former railroad workers. The point still stands that some minorities are more "successful" than others, and it correlates with a strong family structure. Take hispanics, a group doing almost entirely blue-collar work, often barely functional in English, and as discriminated-against as any minority right now. Nonetheless, they are more often employed and thus more often fed than either blacks or native americans. A substantial Hispanic middle class has popped up literally out of nowhere near where I live in the past fifteen years, and they're almost all blue-collar, either tradesmen or owners of service establishments. Most strikingly, all of this is done with no help whatsoever from a government that doesn't even know they are in the country. It's no coincidence, I'll posit, that almost all of the Hispanics where I live belong to large extended families. There is simply no better social safety-net than living near fifteen to twenty people who can both tell you that education and a job are necessary and important, and can help you financially. Governments have yet to develop a program that can effectively raise the social status of a minority, but groups like the Chinese and the Jews succeeded against the wishes of whites (the shift away from pure test-scores college admissions was in large part so that the Ivy Leagues could admit fewer Jews). Government policy needs to address that aspect of Native American and Black communities, I believe, before it will actually succeed. EDIT: Encouraging people on welfare to take up a trade may not be such a bad idea. It's certainly better than a simple "get a job, ya bum." [ Wednesday, May 10, 2006 06:47: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 10 2006 08:01
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quote:That's interesting. I haven't heard that before. Do you have any links handy on the subject? -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Wednesday, May 10 2006 08:48
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There was an article in The New Yorker about it a while back. Read it here. Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Wednesday, May 10 2006 10:04
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Interesting, always good to read about stomping on people of one race to "help" people of another in the name of combating racism. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Wednesday, May 10 2006 10:57
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Thanks for the link, PoD. That was a great article, very thought-provoking. And it actually managed to make me feel momentarily proud of the University of Chicago, which is pretty rare for me, heh. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |