Native Americans

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AuthorTopic: Native Americans
Infiltrator
Member # 3441
Profile Homepage #125
"The Executive Committee of the Division of Psychologists Interested in Religious Issues supports the conclusion that, at this time, there is no consensus that sufficient psychological research exists to scientifically equate undue non-physical persuasion (otherwise known as "coercive persuasion", "mind control", or "brainwashing") with techniques of influence as typically practiced by one or more religious groups. Further, the Executive Committee invites those with research on this topic to submit proposals to present their work at Divisional programs." (PIRI Executive Committee Adopts Position on Non-Physical Persuasion Winter, 1991, in Amitrano and Di Marzio, 2001)

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"As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein
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Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #126
For the record, my great-great-grandfather was taken from his tribe as a boy in order to wipe out his culture. It worked. I don't even know which tribe he was from. My mom and I think that he was born in or near Texas, because he lived there for the rest of his life, but we have no further information.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #127
Well, I don't have any particular arguments against trying to do things. But my instinct is to concentrate efforts on those relatively few cases where even after really serious thought it still seems very clear what to do. So I am not often enthusiastic about doing anything. It's not that I can't pull a trigger, but that I'm more prepared to take wild shots in the dark with my eyes wide open than to pretend that we really know what we're shooting at. Probably it's a darn good thing I'm a professor and not an emperor.

On the other hand, it's not like Spidweb is the US Senate. Posting stuff here, even posting exhortations to do things, isn't going to do anything, either. Sometimes we can have a shot at threshing out arguments of principle to our own satisfaction, but if message board pundits are the unacknowledged legislators of today's world then we're a consitutionally impotent legislative branch.

It is perhaps interesting to observe that the frustation in our discussion has apparently stemmed from your reaction to my conclusions (detecting insufficient enthusiasm for intervention) and my reaction to your premises (lack of enthusiasm for market self-correction). Some people tend to skip to the bottom line and assume that if they don't like that, then they must be against whatever was above it. Others never get past the prefatory remarks, and if they don't like those they assume they must hate all that follows. Arguments between these two types are rarely efficient.

EDIT: Maybe I can just tack on to this that I take Zeviz's points. I've had in mind new high school graduates (or drop-outs) as the recruit pool for plumbers (or whatever), so I don't think all these issues are typically relevant for them. In general though the problem of retraining mid-carrier workers seems bad to me too. I was contemplating it myself a couple of years ago, and it didn't look good. But it's not like economists can't think of these things. I'm sure that there are tons of careful articles about these kinds of problems, which I will not have time to read.

[ Friday, May 19, 2006 12:52: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #128
quote:
"The Executive Committee of the Division of Psychologists Interested in Religious Issues supports the conclusion that, at this time, there is no consensus that sufficient psychological research exists to scientifically equate undue non-physical persuasion (otherwise known as "coercive persuasion", "mind control", or "brainwashing") with techniques of influence as typically practiced by one or more religious groups. Further, the Executive Committee invites those with research on this topic to submit proposals to present their work at Divisional programs." (PIRI Executive Committee Adopts Position on Non-Physical Persuasion Winter, 1991, in Amitrano and Di Marzio, 2001)
I bolded the relevant part. That passage is specifically about whether modern religious groups conduct brainwashing, not about whether brainwashing exists, so it has nothing to do with this discussion.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 3441
Profile Homepage #129
My bad.

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"As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein
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Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7128
Profile #130
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

For the record, my great-great-grandfather was taken from his tribe as a boy in order to wipe out his culture. It worked. I don't even know which tribe he was from. My mom and I think that he was born in or near Texas, because he lived there for the rest of his life, but we have no further information.
And that's exactly the situation of a great, great number of native americans today, as well as mostly-white people who feel some connection to their native heritage, like, evidently, you and I (Same deal, great-great-grandfather, don't even know his tribe.) When trying to learn about their people, frequently they have to go to the writings of the same white anthropologists who, more often than not, participated in the destruction of the same culture they're now trying to rediscover.

And what can we do? Well, giving a damn is a good first step. Beyond that I can think of a couple of groups doing important things in that direction, such as Dine College in Navaho country: you might say it's the new indian school. Completely different from the boarding schools of course: Navaho professors and Navaho students, teaching both Navaho and English and a number of other relevant subjects, both to the modern life and the traditional heritage of its students. I have a friend who is a professor there. He went through the boarding school system. I haven't asked him much about it.

In a somewhat different direction, in my own area there are the Red Hawk Dancers, a group of native american performers living in New York City and dedicated to preserving, increasing awareness of, and hopefully stimulating a revival of the art/culture/spirituality of native peoples. I recently had the priveledge of performing with them in a play about precisely these issues: specifically about the boarding schools. Unfortunately, I gather that many of their performance gigs tend to play into stereotypes more than combatting them.

So, it's an uphill battle, but I propose that the only sure way to lose it is not to care.
Posts: 5 | Registered: Sunday, May 14 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5483
Profile #131
quote:
quote:
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Originally written by The_Other_Guy:
The real problem though is all the crap that the government is investing in, such as research to give mice partially human brains.
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Just because you don't understand why that's a good idea doesn't mean it isn't.

How the hell do you expect scientists to research what goes on in the human brain without having access to human brain cells? It's not as if we can go around cutting up the brains of actual living humans to see how they tick, so we do the next best thing.
I understand what they think they're doing, but I fail to see how mice brains are any substitute. Mice are entirely different, whether or not some human DNA is added. Plus it raises controversial issues as to when it is considered a human life and stuff like that.

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Ignorance Is bliss -Cypher (Matrix)
Don't think you can; know you can -Morpheus (Matrix)

sanity is overrated :)
Posts: 130 | Registered: Monday, February 7 2005 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #132
Originally by The_Other_Guy:

quote:
Mice are entirely different, whether or not some human DNA is added.
Mice and rats are actually a lot closer to humans than you might think. Here's an interesting article. It's a few years old, but that shouldn't matter much.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #133
quote:
Originally written by The_Other_Guy:

I understand what they think they're doing, but I fail to see how mice brains are any substitute. Mice are entirely different, whether or not some human DNA is added.
Dude. Pay attention. They're testing on human brain cells. The human brain cells just happen to be in mice in order to simulate what happens inside a living being. And mice are in fact alive.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #134
I love the way other people are picking up my use of the word "dude" to express mild condescension. :P

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #135
Dude. It's a California thing.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #136
Dude, I don't think so. :P

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #137
Okay, who got the Dell? :P

Dikiyoba.

[ Sunday, May 21, 2006 15:24: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #138
We're giving out computers?

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #139
You didn't get yours?
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #140
I've though about being a carpenter, I might still do that. But teaching is more enticing, what with making way more money and having more time off. Damn I could work in the trades during the summer. It is a bit out of line though, I make ($20.00) an hour working at a mill basically just sweeping the floor. Then there's trade jobs at ($14.00) an hour. BTW I love my mill job.

Oh, and only bikers with long hair say dude. Not (motor-bikes.)

[ Sunday, May 21, 2006 20:21: Message edited by: VCH ]

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2836
Profile #141
quote:
Originally written by VCH:

But teaching is more enticing, what with making way more money and having more time off.
Yup, my ambition is to become a maths teacher. Seriously, it is.
And where's my free computer?

[ Sunday, May 21, 2006 22:11: Message edited by: The Stew Boy ]
Posts: 587 | Registered: Tuesday, April 1 2003 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #142
If your main motivations for becoming a teacher are short hours and good pay, you've picked the wrong career on both counts.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #143
Yes. Teachers get way more homework than the students ever do.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2836
Profile #144
That's why I'm choosing maths - in english or science, the teacher has to read assignments, make comments, etc. In maths, all s/he has to do is give a cross or tick. Most of the time.
Posts: 587 | Registered: Tuesday, April 1 2003 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #145
You still have to construct a curriculum. That takes time. Even if the exact specifications of what you have to teach are pre-decided, you have to figure out exactly how you're gonna do it.

Granted, you could be a hugely crappy teacher, and not put much time into that, and just read out of a textbook all the time. I hope not.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #146
quote:
Originally written by 84,000 Stupas:

Granted, you could be a hugely crappy teacher, and not put much time into that, and just read out of a textbook all the time. I hope not.
No worries Slarty, I'm sure you will be out of school by the time Stewie is ready to start teaching. The different hemisphere thing will work in your favor as well.

:P

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #147
quote:
Originally written by 84,000 Stupas:

You still have to construct a curriculum. That takes time. Even if the exact specifications of what you have to teach are pre-decided, you have to figure out exactly how you're gonna do it.
If you're a public school teacher, you might be "lucky" enough to have scripted curriculum, in which case all of those decisions have been made for you.

Being a teacher is really fun and rewarding, if at times difficult and infuriating. ("Who the hell taught these kids before me and why don't they know basic algebra?!")

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #148
Fun and rewarding for those who are in the field because they actually want to teach. :P If you're doing it because you want good pay and short hours, possibly you wouldn't find it quite so fun and rewarding.

Skilled labour jobs are probably your best bet if you're after a high pay-to-time ratio.

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #149
Teaching depends at what academic level and what type of school, Spending all your time ride herd on a bunch of rowdy teenagers in an inner city public school will change your thinking. Even at college level you wonder why did you get stuck with all the morons this semester.

The system in the US for elementary and high school is becoming geared towards passing exams for No Child Left Behind and not towards teaching people to think critcially and learn on their own. That's why students can make it into college and have to be taught material they should have learned in high school.

Don't get me started on the idiots who sign up for courses without knowing the prerequisite material. There was a post last month about stupid questions and I remember one student who wasn't academically prepared so his questions continually covered material he needed to know before he had signed up for the course, Just bringing him up to speed would require a year of math and science classes that he didn't have. It was the only time where I saw a professor tell a student to just shut up so he could finish the class.

[ Monday, May 22, 2006 19:37: Message edited by: Randomizer ]
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00

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