Yom HaShoa

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AuthorTopic: Yom HaShoa
Infiltrator
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Profile #75
Well, they do. And people who overthrow them inevitably become politicians themsleves. It's a vicious cycle.

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But I don't want to ride the elevator.
Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #76
quote:
Originally written by Strontium:

It is also true that Germany systematically went about defying the Allies, breaking the Treaty of Versailles and rearming, etc for several years and started a war without any real opposition.

There was opportunity to invade from France, in support of Poland, but the allies stood by and watched Poland fall. This too was a realistic opportunity to stop Hitler, in the early stages of a war yes, but surely would have prevented many millions of deaths.

Not sure this is still within the topic of this thread, but we have to account for the limited will power in democracies. It does tend to moderate policies but sometimes in a desasterous way.
The electorate tends to adopt views that allow for some selfrespect if not the cocain of grandiosity. H. appeared to supply this want.

The German invasion of Poland was staged a hugely disproportionate "reaction" to a staged raid. We have seen how the main stream media buys fabricated evidence and we are seeing how populations (e.g. the Iranians at presnt) unify behind confrontational foreign policy when they feel threatened and humiliated.
It does not take any evil genius politician to surf such slippery slope escalations to retain power, but it takes timely insight and convincing the public to counteract. If you know how to win such an uphill battle, show me please...
Its is far more likely to end up being ostracized for a seemingly pathological desire to drag the government through the mud at any given opportunity.

[ Saturday, May 06, 2006 02:23: Message edited by: Yet another procrastinator ]

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The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
Profile #77
quote:
Originally written by Strontium:


It is also true that Germany systematically went about defying the Allies, breaking the Treaty of Versailles and rearming, etc for several years and started a war without any real opposition. IT has been argued by some that the Allies were looking to the east as the real threat (Communisim) and were hoping that Germany and Russia would slit each others throats as they stood idly by. Note too that even after the war started, the western border was thinly defended and there was opportunity to invade from France, in support of Poland, but the allies stood by and watched Poland fall. This too was a realistic opportunity to stop Hitler, in the early stages of a war yes, but surely would have prevented many millions of deaths.

Do you have to take a course to get this ignorant?

a) Germany and Russia were *allies* in 1939; they carved up Poland together. The 'let them kill each other' attitude didn't become relevant until the Soviets were already technically in the Allied camp.

b) The Western border might have been thinly defended, but the German army was ludicrously oversized and mostly based on highly mobile forces. France could not have won an offensive war, even if it weren't for what I'm going to get to momentarily. The Allies recognized this; their throwing in with Poland could not in a million years have translated to direct offensive aid. It was instead intended as a pledge to bleed Germany dry and liberate Poland once they surrendered.

c) It was entirely reasonable to assume a defensive campaign would have worked against Germany. The actual site of the invasion was miserable tank country; the remainder of the border was overlooked by the most powerful fortification ever built. The German army was larger than the Allied army, and relied on strategic mobility. An offensive war against a quick-moving, larger army is a mug's game.

d) The Wehrmacht conquered western Europe with fewer casualties than the US took at Antietam. Poland was a clear demonstration of that trend.

e) To summarize and analogize, you faulting the Allies here in specific is rather like getting angry at a lifeguard for failing to respond to a shark sighted at a beach by swimming out to take it out personally. Germany was a freaking titan. Fighting the war differently would have been criminal, and disastrous.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #78
quote:
Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

Germany was a freaking titan. Fighting the war differently would have been criminal, and disastrous.
Are you sure, Alec?
I am not blaming the allies, but there was a certain Munich Agreement you have read about most certainly. Look at Chamberlain holding the resolution to commit to peaceful methods signed by both Hitler and himself on his return from Germany in September 1938.
IMAGE(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/Neville_Chamberlain2.jpg)
quote:
My good friends, for the second time in our history, a British Prime Minister has returned from Germany bringing peace with honour. I believe it is peace in our time.
We say "Die Hoffnung stirbt zuletzt."

The military strength of Germany at that time may have been overstated do to misunderstanding of economic realities.
The subsequent German policy appears to be as driven by a strangely increasing deathwish. H. clearly subordinated policy goals to his personal lifetime and Göring's words upon his arrest "Wenigstens zwölf Jahre anständig gelebt." showed even less concern than Bill Clinton's hindsight analysis of his Monica lapse: "I did it for the worst possible reason: Because I could."

[ Saturday, May 06, 2006 04:59: Message edited by: Yet another procrastinator ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #79
quote:
Originally written by Yet another procrastinator:

I am not blaming the allies, but there was a certain Munich Agreement you have read about most certainly. Look at Chamberlain holding the resolution to commit to peaceful methods signed by both Hitler and himself on his return from Germany in September 1938.
Yes, in September 1938. Alec was replying to a post that talked about what the Allies could have done when Germany invaded Poland. The options had changed rather dramatically just a year after the Munich Agreement.

quote:
The military strength of Germany at that time may have been overstated do to misunderstanding of economic realities.
Er, the military strength of Germany at that time was pretty darn enormous. This sentence in your post is where you lose me, and I fail to see how it or the sentences after it relate to anything.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #80
In defense of Chamberlain I quote "I Have in My Hand; . . . the Shortest Suicide Note in History. Chris Upton Looks at the Changing Fortunes of Neville Chamberlain" Newspaper article; The Birmingham Post (England), July 9, 2005
quote:
For one thing, there is Neville Chamberlain's fine record as a cabinet minister, and especially as Chancellor of the Exchequer (from 1931 to 1937), which cannot be extinguished solely by his failure to stop Hitler.

The recovery of the British economy in the mid-30s had a lot to do with Chamberlain's prudent management. For the critics to the right of him, Chamberlain cut income tax; for those to the left he restored unemployment benefit, and imposed a tax on the arms producers.

Better still, he found in the budget enough funds to promote the biggest house building programme in the country's history. If expenditure on rearmament was not as great as some would have liked, the money went to an equally deserving cause.

Secondly, the principle of appeasement, forever twisted around Neville Chamberlain's neck, had actually been the policy of the British government ever since the end of the First World War.

There were moral and political reasons for that, but practical ones too.

The consistent advice from the Chiefs of Staff to the Prime Minister throughout the 1930s was that Britain was as yet incapable of facing up to the military threat of either Germany, Italy or Japan, let alone all three at once.

It remained Chamberlain's considered objective that rearmament must not be at the expense of all other government expenditure.

Thirdly, as Ward shows, the British people were hardly consistent in their views of Hitler's Germany either.

As late as 1935 the Birmingham Labour Party, Communist Party and other groups were protesting loudly against rearmament.

Peace rallies in the Town Hall and Handsworth Park condemned the growth in arms manufacture as a wilful slide towards war, and a betrayal of the League of Nations and of collective security.

Only when Mussolini invaded Abyssinia and Hitler marched into Czechoslovakia did the radicals begin to change tack.

In the eyes of the Left, Neville Chamberlain had switched overnight from a warmonger to an appeaser.

The cry reached a crescendo with a 'Chamberlain Must Go' rally in the Town Hall, organised by Victor Gollancz's Left Wing Book Club.

The wider public changed its tune, too. In the wake of the Munich agreement, there was widespread rejoicing at a crisis averted. 50,000 fans at Villa Park sang 'For he's jolly good fellow', while the Lord Mayor launched a Thanksgiving Fund 'intended to be an expression of the city's pride in the unique achievement of one of its sons'.

When Neville visited the Austin factory in July 1938 he was mobbed by enthusiastic supporters. Ronald Cartland MP commented: 'He has a following in the country far bigger than those in Westminster think.'

As late as May 1939 Chamberlain's Unionists were winning a parliamentary by-election in Aston.

Only with Britain's disastrous expedition to defend Norway in the spring of 1940 did the House of Commons turn decisively against the Prime Minister.
I am still looking into evidence of the wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement that states:
quote:
None of the powers in western Europe wanted war. They severely overestimated Adolf Hitler's military ability at the time, and while Britain and France had superior forces to the Germans they felt they had fallen behind, and both were undergoing massive military rearmament to catch up. Hitler, on the other hand, was in just the opposite position. He far exaggerated German power at the time and was desperately hoping for a war with the west which he thought he could easily win. He was pushed into holding the conference, however, by Benito Mussolini who was totally unprepared for a Europe-wide conflict, and was also concerned about the growth of German power. The German military leadership also knew the state of their armed forces and did all they could to avoid war.
One thing, I am certain of, however, is that military without economic power is short-lived. It is revealing in this context to read in Michael Dobbs Article in the Washington Post Monday, November 30, 1998; Page A01
quote:
Hitler "would never have considered invading Poland" without synthetic fuel technology provided by General Motors. The relationship of Ford and GM to the Nazi regime goes back to the 1920s and 1930s, when the American car companies competed against each other for access to the lucrative German market. Hitler was an admirer of American mass production techniques and an avid reader of the antisemitic tracts penned by Henry Ford. "I regard Henry Ford as my inspiration," Hitler told a Detroit News reporter two years before becoming the German chancellor in 1933, explaining why he kept a life-size portrait of the American automaker next to his desk.
A more detailed report is Ford and the Führer

[ Sunday, May 07, 2006 02:47: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 5410
Profile #81
quote:
Do you have to take a course to get this ignorant?

No, you have to take a course to be as ignorant as you are in facilely accept history as you did in your post. Never have I read such a simplistic interpretation of the events of WWII.

Even the most basic of history texts can clearly outline the emnity that existed between Germany and Russia, and it was fairly obvious that the two weren't allies, merely temporarily co-operating to feed each others naked aggression. You will see that history clearly outlines Stalin's nervousness with Germany, that he initially sought an alliance with the allies and was rebuffed and that he chose the Nazi-Soviet pact as a way to buy time as he was grossly unprepared to wage war with Germany (see http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RUSnazipact.htm for a decent summary of this part of history).

Even the most basic of economic analysis will show that Germany was a mid-level power with poor resources to survive a sustained war. At the start of WWII France's military was close to the strength of Germany and it was not at all clear that Germany was a freakin titan. Germany's own top generals advocated AGAINST the war, not yet feeling properly prepared or confident of winning.

Military: In 1939 the French Army had 900,000 regular soldiers. However, it had another 5 million men who had been trained and could be called-up in time of war. In 1939 the German Army had 98 divisions available for the invasion of Poland. Although some were ill-equipped veteran reservists, they still had 1.5 million well-trained men available for action. When the German Army mounted its Western Offensive in 1940, it had had 2.5 million men and 2,500 tanks. So, in 1939 the allies actually stood a much better chance than in 1940. Waiting cost the allies significantly (for instance, France lost). You may argue that the German army was much more mobile, but in 1939, not yet - it wasn't really until 1940 that Germany got mobility on a scale large enough to support the war effort against France.

Get some literacy, read some history, do some proper military analysis.

(some facts from http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WW.htm)

Edit: Oh, and with respect to Germany being a freakin titan, lets not limit this to 1939/1940 state of military preparedness. Lets look at what the allies didn't do that allowed this to occur - the Treaty of Versailles limited Germany to a 100,000 man army and NO military aircraft. But by 1935, Germany was openly flouting this treaty, and in fact had been circumventing it for many years. No enforcement of this treaty led to Germany's increasing military strength so yes the allies had a lot to do to prevent WW 2.

With respect to Poland, throughout the first two and half weeks of September 1939 (first part of the invasion), Germany threw its entire air force, all of panzer forces, and all of its frontline infantry and artillery against Poland. Its border with France was held by a relatively thin force of second and third string divisions. The French army had overwhelming superiority in men, tanks, aircraft, and artillery. A concerted push into western Germany would have been a disaster for Hitler. German losses in Poland included 230 of its 3200 aircraft and 674 of its 2500 tanks.

Also, if you look at actual numbers of tanks, men and front line aircraft available to the allies in 1939, the allies actually had the advantage and this increased due to losses from the Polish invasion. Germany reversed much of this by 1940 (especially and most importantly in the Luftwaffe).

[ Monday, May 08, 2006 07:24: Message edited by: Strontium ]

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00
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Further to my previous post, tables to support my contentions.

quote:
Population and industrial capacity
Population in 1939 Steel output in tons
UK 47.961.000 13.192.000
France 41.600.000 6.221.000
USSR 190.000.000 18.800.000
USA 132.122.000 51.380.000
Germany (including Austria) 76.008.000 23.329.000

Italy 44.223.000 2.323.000
Japan 71.400.000 5.811.000
In population and in industrial capacity , the allies, even after losing France, were stronger than the axis powers.

Population and industrial capacity by the British Empire Forces
Population in 1939 Steel production in tons (1939)
Canada 11.682.000 1.407.000
South Africa (white) 2.161.000 250.000
Australia 6.807.000 1.189.000
New Zealand 1.585.000 --
India 374.200.000 1.035.000
The British Commonwealth and Empire possessed further resources for war. Canada and Australia had significant industries, and their populations, like those of New Zealand and white South Africa, were well-educated and physically and mentally capable of providing high-quality recruits. These 4 self-governing 'dominions' followed the British lead and declared war 1939.

, from http://www.euronet.nl/users/wilfried/ww2/1939.htm

Germany was not an econmic powerhouse without peer.

quote:
Relative Strenght at 10 May 1940
German France England Allies Belgium/Holland
Inf. div. 119 - - 119 -
Motor. div. 7 - - 7 -
Tank div. 10 - - 11 -
Airborne div. 1 - - - -
Total div. 136 - - 137 -
Tanks 2580 - - 3000 -
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bombers 1562 143 »Total 1150
» Planes,
» of this 500
» in France
» station - »
»
» Total 160 Planes
»
»
»
Fighters 1016 764 -
Scouting Planes 501 396 -
Other Planes 555 396 -
Total Planes 3634 »2613«

from same source as above.

Not 1939 data when the allies actually had greater advantage in numbers but still, you will note that the Allies had an edge in tanks and men. And, if you do any reading at all on the quality of tank design, in many respects French tanks were the best in the world. Much of the problem for the allies resulted from not modernizing military strategy NOT from having inferior forces.

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #83
If the western border of Germany really was that poorly defended, and if France could've taken it as easily as you say, then why didn't they? They were already at war with the Germans when the Germans were invading Poland.

It's rather hard to attribute that entirely to stupidity.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #84
Internet info on the French Prelude to WWII

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #85
I suppose, to answer my own question, that the traditional explanation is that everyone thought that this was going to be trench warfare, like WWI. The French didn't have any concept of how blitzkrieg worked, so they were settling in to defend their lines along the German border.

I've only read this explanation in middle school-level history books, though, so I have doubts about how well it bears up to scrutiny.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #86
Blitzkrieg or the modern "shock and awe" give initial success but consolidation of power requires much more. No, I will not mention the example before our eyes.
Was H.'s whole WWII endeavor not doomed in the long run from the invasion of Poland on, at latest?
The very idea of a permanent occupation by "Aryan Herrenmenschen" appears to me to belong in the stone age. Think of Alexander the Great and Napoleon. Just because the German troops were more mobile does not make a continuing occupation any easier to sustain unless there were local supporters - like Adenauer rather than Chalabi. Think of the decentralized power structures on the other hand.

[ Tuesday, May 09, 2006 09:53: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 5410
Profile #87
French military strategy post WWI was formed as a response to the horrible losses suffered during WWI and looked to the success of trench warfare as a defensive strategy. It was flawed in that near the end of WWI the major powers were exploiting strategies to confound trench defence. Thus, the French were prepared to fight a defensive war not an offensive one (flawed thinking). Germany was gearing for an offensive battle in which blitzkreig would rely on rapid capture of forward positions and disruption of the enemy (blitzkrieg as originally formulated was not about capturing territory). To that end it was the only power at the start of WWII to have entire mechanized divisions (France was beginning the process at the behest of De Gaulle, a young tank general at the time). However, it was still be rejected as a strategy by the more senior staff. French strategy also expected the Germans to come through the low countries and were totally surprised by the German assault through the forests to the south (read some military history from German generals, they were surprised at how far they advanced, the lack of losses and the missing opposition too). French armor for instance had superior manouverability and armor to the Germans, but lacked radios, and good communication is a key to winning a fluid battle.

ITs my understanding as well that Germany was well advanced in rearmanent and the allies were struggling to catch up, so delays in the start of actual war were thought to benefit the allies - which proved untrue.

There are other factors that played into Germany's hands as well. The capture of Czechslovakia without a fight was one - Czech standing army was almost as large as the German army (but not near so modern) and a battle for Czech would most certainly have caused losses in time, munitions and equipment. Also the country itself had some advanced military production facilities to assist the German campaign for instance.

The allies distrust of the Soviet Union prevented them using the Russkies as allies (throughout the war).

Like anything else this was a complicated matter, there wasn't a single tipping point but a confluence of many factors, including luck/good fortune that resulted in the history as we know it.

[ Tuesday, May 09, 2006 10:02: Message edited by: Strontium ]

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"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #88
quote:
Originally written by too long, don't read, too many CRs:

The very idea of a permanent occupation by "Aryan Herrenmenschen" appears to me to belong in the stone age. Think of Alexander the Great and Napoleon.
Is Alexander supposed to be an example of massive conquest and occupation not working? If so, you've got things rather backwards. The only reason that the enormous Macedonian Empire didn't hold together under Alexander was that he died without an heir. The successor states were mostly ruled by Greeks for centuries afterwards.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #89
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

The only reason that the enormous Macedonian Empire didn't hold together under Alexander was that he died without an heir. The successor states were mostly ruled by Greeks for centuries afterwards.
Thank you for pointing that out and raising an interesting question - that does not belong here, however.

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #90
Pointing out that your example is garbage doesn't belong in the topic in which you gave your example?

Righto.

EDIT: I know what you mean. You mean that you don't want to start an argument about Alexander the Great and therefore derail the topic. Neither do I. I'm just giving you a hard time, I suppose.

[ Tuesday, May 09, 2006 18:05: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

--------------------
Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 5410
Profile #91
quote:
I know what you mean. You mean that you don't want to start an argument about Alexander the Great and therefore derail the topic.
Why not? This started out as a topic remembering Holocaust Memorial Day.

--------------------
"Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things."

"You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares."
Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00

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