Native Americans

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AuthorTopic: Native Americans
Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
Profile #0
I recently found a music video of the song "Creek Mary's Blood" by the band Nightwish, this music video is fanart, the video part was taken from the movie Into the West. I am raising this because both the song and the movie are very strong pieces describing the slaughter of the Native Americans. I wanted to discuss this topic with people more knowledgeable than I, and I thought this video a good place to start.

This video and several more, all created by the same author, can be found at this website.

EDIT: Okay, what is putting that space in there? Either use the link to the page containing all the videos or copy and paste into your adress bar.

MOD EDIT: Link fixed.

[ Sunday, May 07, 2006 12:03: Message edited by: Imban ]

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Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6489
Profile Homepage #1
quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:

EDIT: Okay, what is putting that space in there? Either use the link to the page containing all the videos or copy and paste into your adress bar.
UBB messes up links when certain characters are present in the URL. It happened to me a while ago when I posted a link with an apostrophe in it. I'm not sure, but I imagine that the hyphens are causing the problem this time. Strangely enough, a direct link usually works for these cases.

Edit: But not this time. :P

[ Sunday, May 07, 2006 08:57: Message edited by: Tyranicus ]

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Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
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See the similar thread on Polaris. What is the use of two parallel threads?

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The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
The Establishment
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Definitely one of America's worst moments. Native Americans, the silent and worst-off minority because we largely wiped them out and have done little for them since.

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Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6666
Profile #4
There's a thread in Desp as well.

I for one can't listen to Creek Mary's Blood without trying to crack open my skull by bashing it into any hard surface available. There's just something so very phony about a Finnish woman singing about the plight of people thousands of kilometres and hundreds of years away from her, using that unbearable accent of hers. And the ending with John Two-Hawks reciting a poem in (apparently) Lakota - bleach.

As for the actual topic, I can't say much on the matter. Of course what happened to the native Americans was a travesty, but on the other hand, this board probably wouldn't exist if it had not occurred.

[ Sunday, May 07, 2006 11:59: Message edited by: Redstart ]
Posts: 353 | Registered: Monday, January 9 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 6652
Profile #5
quote:
Originally written by Redstart:

Of course what happened to the native Americans was a travesty, but on the other hand, this board probably wouldn't exist if it had not occurred.
I severely doubt it was necessary for thousands to be slaughtered in order to create the nation.

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Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #6
Humanity overall has not had a very good record of tolerance of difference and integration of culture.

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Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
Profile #7
Pound for pound, the worst single crime against humanity ever committed.

You can change its position on the metaphorical list by examining intent, but when you get right down to it, 20 to 50 million people died and the survivors were driven onto the least hospitable land on the continent and forced to eke out a miserable living - a status that continues to this day.

...

Of course, where exactly a right-wing Israeli gets off lecturing Americans on the treatment of the Amerinds - I don't precisely know. But that's not my intellectual burden to bear, so I'll say no more of it.
Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Infiltrator
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Where did you get the 20 to 50 million number?

[ Sunday, May 07, 2006 16:21: Message edited by: Wild Kinky Slugs ]

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"As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein
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Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00
BANNED
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Europeans wholesale-cleared two goddamned continents of people. Alec's estimate is conservative on both ends- scholars have guestimated the deaths to range from 15 million to 100 million deaths, and even those who are on the lower end of the spectrum tend to agree that it was one of the most bloodiest tragedies in human history. And remember, where these masses weren't overtly killed, they WERE forced to live in intensely miserable situations, making the "death count" almost superfluous since the conditions made death almost seem tenable by comparison.

Happy Columbus Day!

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #10
quote:
Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

If course, where exactly a right-wing Israeli gets off lecturing Americans on the treatment of the Amerinds - I don't precisely know.
Here comes the lecturing from a reality biased non-Israeli on the common theme of colonization. So a new class of immigrants invades with superior power in fire as well as economics and the corresponding disregard for the interests of the natives. There is no "right" of the underdog because there is no mechanism to enforce it, neither from within the superior group nor from the outside because morality does not come with a survival advantage for the interaction between classes in the same way as moral behavior of the individuals results in a survival advantage of the community as a wole.

The analogy between the interaction of individuals in a community and the interaction between nations does not carry in this respect, even if I hate to say so. The corresponding behavior that optimizes survival at the international level is not moral but Realpolitik. The question is:
Is the successful Realpolitician immoral or "guilty" and if so since when?
Has it changed due to the posthoc invention of the concept of "crimes against humanity" in the Nuremberg trials?
Anyway, the descendents of the victorious will all feel much better after shedding a crocodile tears.

[ Monday, May 08, 2006 01:17: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ]

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The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #11
Humans are gifted with the luxury of hindsight, and the feeling of emotional loss that may accompany it. It probably would have been "better" if native Americans had been 100% eliminated.
It would have meant much less suffering on the Rez, including the chronic alcoholism, drug addiction, and suicide that plague native Americans. We could have marveled over artifacts such as spearpoints and pointed at intricate weavings or cave paintings and nodded sagely, confident that those long lost peoples were noble savages, one with the earth and able to communicate with the animals.

Bleagh.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
BANNED
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Profile Homepage #12
quote:
It probably would have been "better" if native Americans had been 100% eliminated.
Please. The only race I can *almost* see the world being better without are the whites.

Anyway, as for the other post:

quote:
There is no "right" of the underdog because there is no mechanism to enforce it, neither from within the superior group
Am I the only person who finds it absurd that a member of the "superior group" is talking about how the "superior group" can do nothing to help the problem? As much as we well and truly have not fixed the problem yet, it is also indicative of a consciousness that we even discuss this sort of issue. How do we know what is morally wrong?

We make society. If enough of "us" decide to help things, it becomes possible.

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #13
For those of you interested in this topic, I found Jared Diamond’s "Guns, Germs and Steel" to be a particularly good book. Diamond seeks the answer to the question of why Europe did the invading and not the other way around. The proximate causes are simple to identify - Europeans had guns, steel weapons and armor, and diseases to which they'd developed relative immunities but wiped out native populations with whom they made contact.

Diamond then begins to question why Europeans where the ones who developed guns, germs and steel before other cultures around the world. At the risk is simplifying this book WAY more than it deserves, it was because Eurasians developed on a stretch of land that was particularly conducive to human development. They had access to a greater number of domesticable animals and edible plants, and because the weather patterns don't vary as substantially across the Eurasian continent (as opposed to the American continents), crop discoveries and inventions from neighboring societies tended to work elsewhere. In the Americas, for instance, the Aztec agricultural developments could not be imported to other neighboring civilizations because the climatic changes made them generally useless.

The point is that the high levels of domesticated animals and food production allowed for increased population density (which led to greater resistance to diseases). And the favorable conditions for technological exchange allowed inventions from China to migrate over to Spain, and vice versa. This led to the guns and steel.

Now, my description above is a definite bastardization of Diamond’s excellent work. I’m just trying to give the “10,000 foot view” of the book.

And also, in regard to whether the ethnic genocide of American Indians was the worst crime of its kind is a weird discussion. It strikes me as a particularly grotesque version of arguing about how many angels can stand on the head of a pin. Human history if full of incredible cruelty. If you read about the Polynesian history, it becomes pretty obvious that competition leading to genocide is a sadly routine feature among human tribes. In other words, you don't need to be a white man to behave like a stereotypical white devil - that evil is inherent in all of us.

Z

[ Monday, May 08, 2006 05:45: Message edited by: Zorro ]

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:
Am I the only person who finds it absurd that a member of the "superior group" is talking about how the "superior group" can do nothing to help the problem?
1. The settlers proved superior because their group survived and multplied. Call it any other euphemism - I will not insist on the word.
2. I am Caucasian, but please do not count me as a member of the group that took the land from the American Native population. There are many group definitions that apply to the Pilgrim Fathers as well as me e.g. neither of them nor me have been to the Southpole. However, You appear to base my inclusion into this group on race. Please do not do that.
3. In the Yom HaShoa topic, we have turned to the question what opportunities were missed to stop H. from e.g. invading Poland. If you can pinpoint any potentially decisive intervention that was missed by a single individual that was aware of that, I would be most interested - in particular in any action that would not likely have resulted in the individual being ostracized for a seemingly pathological desire to drag the government through the mud at any given opportunity.
quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:
As much as we well and truly have not fixed the problem yet
I am on the same page with you about "the problem" even if it amounts to a Sisyphos task, just because it is worthwhile to try. Your goal of "fixing" the problem translates to abolishing gravity in Sisyphos' allegory, however, and that is a very tall order.
quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:
It is also indicative of a consciousness that we even discuss this sort of issue. How do we know what is morally wrong?
Good question! Because this is the way we were brought up and the values that we adopted from our family and culture were the ones that made our family and culture survive evolution.
quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:
We make society. If enough of "us" decide to help things, it becomes possible.
In theory you are right, however, the tricks of the survival game between cultures and nations cannot be changed by a majority vote - not to speak of exceptions to the rules or about enforcement. Let us take an individual example, namely the habeas corpus rights of Khalid Sheik Mohammed. I believe that waterboarding him is wrong, not only morally, and that the long term interest of the morally aware is to have him stand in a trial. I believe that it is impossible to get a majority supporting this - in principle impossible.
quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:
The only race I can *almost* see the world being better without are the whites.
I share your anger at the euthanasia argument to complete the genocide. Is this Order Mage again? However, you appear to bite the hand that feeds you. Your concept of "better" would not be available without "white" culture. Not in the present form.

[ Monday, May 08, 2006 08:02: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ]

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The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #15
"Definitely one of America's worst moments. Native Americans,"

Yes, at that time.

"the silent and worst-off minority because we largely wiped them out"

We were wrong at the start by killing them. But, silent? I don't think so.

"we have done little for them since."

Do you live in oklahoma? No, wait you live in washington. But here, indians are a VERY privalidged group.

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
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If somebody says something you disagree with, and you assert a different opinion, the conversation is moved forward dramatically when you explain and support your assertions. Asserting without explanation is not helpful.

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Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Warrior
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Profile #17
quote:
If somebody says something you disagree with, and you assert a different opinion, the conversation is moved forward dramatically when you explain and support your assertions. Asserting without explanation is not helpful.
I'll assume this is directed at me. (As your post had me confused there for awhile.) Explaining what I was saying would cause people who disagree with me to post something against it. And I would reply but, unfortiantly I do not feel like typing alot today neither do I have the time for it. However, I'll try to explain what I was saying, so here it goes.
The indians around here are recieving large amounts of money from the government also they have their own "nation" and do not have to pay taxes......
The list could go on for awhile so I'll stop it here. Oh and one more thing there are alot of people saying that we should give them more stuff.
True, most of them that I've met don't really care and are very nice people.

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #18
quote:
We were wrong at the start by killing them. But, silent? I don't think so.
Compared to African Americans and Hispanics, Native Americans are by and large forgotten about in the US as a whole. Perhaps silent is not the right word, unheard would be better.

How many people can name at least two African American civil rights leaders? How many can name the equivalent for Native Americans?

As far as what's been done relative to the atrocities (which pale in comparison to other minorities), it has been pathetically small. Not saying absolutely nothing, but comparatively nothing.

Also, saying their privledged really is sort of insulting considering that statistics put their average economic status well below all other ethnic groups in the US. Face it, we destroyed them and have done very little to get them up to the level as everyone else.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #19
quote:
Originally written by Zorro:

For those of you interested in this topic, I found Jared Diamond’s "Guns, Germs and Steel" to be a particularly good book. Diamond seeks the answer to the question of why Europe did the invading and not the other way around. The proximate causes are simple to identify - Europeans had guns, steel weapons and armor, and diseases to which they'd developed relative immunities but wiped out native populations with whom they made contact.
Chinese had gunpowder and steel before Europeans.

quote:
Diamond then begins to question why Europeans where the ones who developed guns, germs and steel before other cultures around the world. At the risk is simplifying this book WAY more than it deserves, it was because Eurasians developed on a stretch of land that was particularly conducive to human development. They had access to a greater number of domesticable animals and edible plants, and because the weather patterns don't vary as substantially across the Eurasian continent (as opposed to the American continents), crop discoveries and inventions from neighboring societies tended to work elsewhere. In the Americas, for instance, the Aztec agricultural developments could not be imported to other neighboring civilizations because the climatic changes made them generally useless.
It's very convenient to talk about "Eurasians", but the argument collapses once you remember that neither Chinese nor the Persians colonized America. (There is some argument about ancient Egyptians having visited and/or colonized the continent, but that's irrelevant to our discussion of "guns, gems, and steel".)

As for the "weather patterns didn't vary substantially across Eurasian continent", I am not sure which planet the author is living on. The weather in Siberia is the opposite of the weather in Central Asian deserts.

quote:
The point is that the high levels of domesticated animals and food production allowed for increased population density (which led to greater resistance to diseases). And the favorable conditions for technological exchange allowed inventions from China to migrate over to Spain, and vice versa. This led to the guns and steel.
China was so protective of its inventions that most of them (including gunpowder and various glass products) had to be invented separately in Europe. I agree that it's easier to re-invent something that you know exists, but Chinese gunpowder is a classic example of a technology that was a closely guarded secret until others figured it out themselves.

quote:
Now, my description above is a definite bastardization of Diamond’s excellent work. I’m just trying to give the “10,000 foot view” of the book.
...
I guess you just oversimplified things too much. :)

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Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Warrior
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I think I have found the problem in this argument I'm only talking about where I live.
quote:
Compared to African Americans and Hispanics, Native Americans are by and large forgotten about in the US as a whole. Perhaps silent is not the right word, unheard would be better.

In the US yes in oklahoma no.

quote:
How many people can name at least two African American civil rights leaders? How many can name the equivalent for Native Americans?

I can't name two for either :P
But, yes blacks have made a big deal about it compared to indians.

quote:
As far as what's been done relative to the atrocities (which pale in comparison to other minorities), it has been pathetically small. Not saying absolutely nothing, but comparatively nothing.

Yes again for the US no again for oklahoma(I'm not saying that they are as bad as other races(I hate that term) it's just that they getting alot.

quote:
Also, saying their privledged really is sort of insulting considering that statistics put their average economic status well below all other ethnic groups in the US.
Ok I maybe shouldn't have put such emphises on privledged. But, I was just trying to point out that they aren't doing bad here.

quote:
Face it, we destroyed them and have done very little to get them up to the level as everyone else.
Has any other nation given another nation it's own nation when they conquered them? Oh and by the way there up to the level here. :) (I am 1/32 indian myself)

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
Profile #21
quote:
Originally written by Major:

I think I have found the problem in this argument I'm only talking about where I live.
quote:
Compared to African Americans and Hispanics, Native Americans are by and large forgotten about in the US as a whole. Perhaps silent is not the right word, unheard would be better.

In the US yes in oklahoma no.

The Indians I know who actually live the life you describe - gov't money, no taxes, reservation and such - have had remarkably fast and poor lives. Maybe it's different from Oklahoma, but that seems to be the story for the American southwest in general.

quote:
How many people can name at least two African American civil rights leaders? How many can name the equivalent for Native Americans?

I can't name two for either :P
But, yes blacks have made a big deal about it compared to indians.

You can't name two for either? I learned about Malcolm X and MLK in middle school. And if there's something wrong, there ought to be a big deal made, oughtn't there?

quote:
As far as what's been done relative to the atrocities (which pale in comparison to other minorities), it has been pathetically small. Not saying absolutely nothing, but comparatively nothing.

Yes again for the US no again for oklahoma(I'm not saying that they are as bad as other races(I hate that term) it's just that they getting alot.

You realize that Oklahoma has near to no indigenous population, right? The Indians living there are there as a consequence of being driven out of Georgia on foot. Look up the 'Trail of Tears' sometime. While the current situation might seem unjust to you, it's been worse... much worse.

quote:
Also, saying their privledged really is sort of insulting considering that statistics put their average economic status well below all other ethnic groups in the US.
Ok I maybe shouldn't have put such emphises on privledged. But, I was just trying to point out that they aren't doing bad here.

Maybe not the visible ones. The ones on the reservation tend to live pretty piss-poor lives no matter where the reservation is.

quote:
Face it, we destroyed them and have done very little to get them up to the level as everyone else.
Has any other nation given another nation it's own nation when they conquered them? Oh and by the way there up to the level here. :) (I am 1/32 indian myself)


There's really no comparison in history for what the US did to the Indians (and other American countries, too - I'm just more familiar with here). And even if there were, would we really want to console ourselves saying 'Hey, we're at least better than that'? It's kind of like people who look at Iraq and say 'Hey, at least we aren't like Saddam Hussein'. As if we can't do any better.

And I'm 1/16... uncle tom. :P


Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00
Lack of Vision
Member # 2717
Profile #22
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

Chinese had gunpowder and steel before Europeans.
Yes - that's the point - inventions from China could make their way via trade relationships from east to west relatively easily. And they could go back again. This allowed Spaniards to benefit from Chinese inventions.

quote:
It's very convenient to talk about "Eurasians", but the argument collapses once you remember that neither Chinese nor the Persians colonized America.
This here is the danger of trying to offer a summary of Diamond's argument. In fact, the success that the Persian empire and the Chinese empires had was due to similar situations - they possessed superior technology than those people whom they conquered. The Persian conquest of modern-day Turkey and Afghanistan where similarly brutal to the Spanish conquest of the Americas, and also built on a solid foundation of superior technology.

And the reasons why the Spaniards were able to enjoy such technological superiority to those around them was they enjoyed the fruits of other civilizations' technological advancements. Consider how difficult it is to development ocean-going technology - you need the ability to build the ships, and some theory of the world being round, not to mention mathematics sufficient to turn this theory into navigation, etc. many (most?) of which were not of Spanish origin.

And then, once the Spaniards arrived to the Americas, a relative handful of them where able to literally bring down empires. Whatever we may think about the Conquistadores, it is DAMN impressive that Pizarro went into an Empire numbering the in millions and conquered it in a few years with 150 men! The Inca’s where near the height of their power, and 150 men with guns, steel weapons and horses took them over. When he captured the Inca emperor Atahuallpa, his group of 150 killed more than 5,000 of the Inca’s warriors – in ONE battle, and only one of their number was killed.

quote:
As for the "weather patterns didn't vary substantially across Eurasian continent", I am not sure which planet the author is living on. The weather in Siberia is the opposite of the weather in Central Asian deserts.
Well, this is actually something can can (and is) provably true. Crops that grow well in France usually grow well in Germany, and usually grow well in Eastern Russia, - that is a HUGE advantage compared to the American continent in which crops that grow well in the dry climates of Western Mexico don't grow at all on the rain forests of the Yucatan peninsula and vice versa. This meant that for all practical purposes, the Maya's agricultural technology was useless to the Aztecs and the Aztec's technology was useless to the Maya, despite being so close together. Whereas wheat farmers in France could learn about techniques developed in Ukraine, despite being so far away from each other.

One of the strongest parts of Guns, Germs and Steel is the detailed analysis of domesticable crops and animals and their ability to be introduced to other regions.

I would recommend you try to understand the argument before dismissing it. Diamond may well be wrong, but his argument is incredibly well researched and supported and worth understanding. If you want to learn more, I’d recommend looking at this link from a television show based on his book.

Z

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Pan Lever: Seventeen apple roving mirror moiety. Of turned quorum jaggedly the. Blue?
Posts: 186 | Registered: Thursday, February 27 2003 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #23
quote:
Originally written by Major:

quote:
How many people can name at least two African American civil rights leaders? How many can name the equivalent for Native Americans?

I can't name two for either :P

If you can't name two African-American civil rights leaders, you probably don't know enough about history to be participating in this discussion.

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
The Establishment
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Profile #24
Oklamhoma must be very special then. I can't say, I've never been there. However, I suspect you may not be getting the best picture of what conditions the silent poor may live in.

Oklahoma Native American Poverty

The above site is hardly academic. But I find the most telling statistic is that one in three Native Americans live below the poverty line compared to one in six for everyone else in the region. The per capita income is one-half of every other group. It appears to me that you may be somewhat misinformed.

As for civil rights leaders, from what I've learned on this topic, there's a lot of defeatism among Native Americans that lead to almost an apathy for the way things are. In other words, they have so many problems that it makes this difficult.

It doesn't mean there aren't outspoken activists in the Native American community, it's just that they don't get nearly as much coverage as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Rosa Parks*, Cesar Chavez, etc. Also, not being able to name at least two (heck, I'd take Bill Cosby) people involved in the African American civil rights movement is somewhat disturbing to me.

* I know Rosa Parks was not an outspoken civil rights leader but her actions did spur a lot of the civil rights movement.

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