How would you deal with an acquainted killer?

Pages

AuthorTopic: How would you deal with an acquainted killer?
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #25
quote:
Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

Aran must have had a strange, strange childhood.
Quoted for truth.

--------------------
Encyclopaedia ErmarianaForum ArchivesForum StatisticsRSS [Topic / Forum]
My BlogPolarisI eat novels for breakfast.
Polaris is dead, long live Polaris.
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #26
quote:
Originally written by The Worst Man Ever:

For every war veteran who goes crazy and kills a small family, loses his grip on reality and pitches his hopes to the race, the dice, or the bottle, or simply refuses to go on - there are hundreds, maybe a thousand more who live out quiet lives as if nothing ever happened, who go from firing blindly into shattered buildings to unwilling to run a red light.

War is hell, but it's a buttoned-off kind of hell you can walk into and out of.

That's a spurious argument, Alec. Very few war veterans go crazy and kill people, but very few live out their lives "as if nothing ever happened," either. Most are in the middle.

It's true that many war veterans do not suffer debilitating effects in the long term. But many do. PTSD is very real. War trauma really ought to be taken seriously.

--------------------
Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
Profile #27
Not to mention the flip side wherein war veterans regard a "nice, quiet life" as meaningless compared to the immediacy of war, a sort of feeling that one has already made one's greatest contribution to society and will never feel quite that alive again. I've gotten the impression that such an unhealthy opposite of PTSD is also fairly common among war veterans (although could quote no studies or anything).
Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #28
The sidetracking of the difficult title question of this thread is possibly due to my examples of people who escaped their war dilemmas in one way or other.

Meanwhile, I have been looking at very recent pictures of the suspect playing with his toddler son and I think that - if he indeed committed the slayings - something must have switched completely in his personality or his own existence must have felt completely alien to him since some time.
Alec alleges it is normal to switch back. Not in jail. In fact, I am afraid he is on the track of being dehumanized by noncommunication. It has been argued that if we do to analyze what has happened (at least try) we risk to repeat history. Would it not be worthwhile to have the intact part of his self take part in the analysis - which is impossible under threat of the death penalty?

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #29
quote:
Originally written by VCH:

I doubt you have the required equipment for said procedure.
IMAGE(http://rocr.xepher.net/weblog/images/brushhead3.jpg)
Listen, Jane. I know you want some, but patience is a virtue.

--------------------
*
Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #30
quote:
Originally written by Keto-san:

quote:
Originally written by VCH:

I doubt you have the required equipment for said procedure.
(another standard-issue TM image)

Listen, Jane. I know you want some, but patience is a virtue.

Yay for sidetracking! :(

Procrastinator, I feel like you're going about this in an inefficient way. Trying to have a serious discussion where the people who have experience with the issue don't want to talk, and where TM and Alec are lurking, just doesn't work.

--------------------
Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #31
quote:
Originally written by Ephesos:
Trying to have a serious discussion where the people who have experience with the issue don't want to talk, and where TM and Alec are lurking, just doesn't work.
What do you mean by "work"?
I post here mainly for short distractions and to practice expressing my thoughts. Obviously, I need to get more concise. I happen to be serious but my ideals are not destructive - unlike you suggest.

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
Profile #32
By "work" I beleive he means "result in anything less than TM standard pictures".

--------------------
??? ??????
???? ?????
Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #33
quote:
Originally written by radix malorum est cupiditas:
By "work" I believe he means "result in anything less than TM standard pictures".
What do you think I have been smoking? I do not expect to provoke any nonstandard, i.e. specific, reaction from the illustrious TM.
I do think this topic has achieved something beyond me condensing my thoughts into words.
We are struggling with the similar limitations of communication that led me to start this topic.
...snip ...
Some of us have even dared to start talking about a strange childhood.

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #34
quote:
Originally written by Yet another procrastinator:

I am struggling to align personal ideas about dealing with other individuals and just ask about your help thoughts. Please let us not get into politics in this thread.
(t Alec: no creepyness intended, honestly)

...

But then I read about an army veteran aged 24 whose fantasy fiction I have read and who appears to have killed his mother-in-law and sister-in-law last week. He called the police himself and was arrested on the scene shortly afterwards. The story was in the news but I will not give his name, partially to avoid this thread to be associate with his name by Google. He is still awaiting his trial, has pleaded not guilty and the media have mentioned the death penalty in the context.

...

How would you react - emotionally or by action - if this were a fellow member of an online forum that you frequent? I tend to side with victims but they are dead in this case and they never posted on the forum so I am stuck with the personal perspective from the other side.
I have found myself scrutinizing his texts for any indications but concluded that fantasy related online forums tend to attract far more "crazy" people,so it is not difficult to relate to the man now as he is sitting in jail and must realize not only what he has to live with for the rest of his life but also the utmost alienation from everyone he knows.

My first reaction to your post was "ouch". This is probably among the biggest unpleasant revelations you could have about somebody.

I'd like to address the following part of your post: "I tend to side with victims but they are dead in this case and they never posted on the forum so I am stuck with the personal perspective from the other side." The thing about online forums (which I realized only a couple years ago) is that everybody here is just playing a character. That character might be the same as the person's true identity, or it might be completely different. Just because somebody posts their pictures and appears completely open doesn't mean that everything [or even anything] you know about him is true.

In this case, assuming you didn't think the person was a potential murderer before you read about him in the news, the character he presented on your forums was very different from his real self. And just because you knew his character, doesn't mean you know anything about the person behind the mask. So you shouldn't scrutinize his character's actions for signs of anomaly - if he is a good role-player there aren't any. Instead of trying to twist your morality into knots emphasizing with killer instead of victims, just accept that you didn't really know this person and that his online persona was different from his real personality. Of course this applies only if your question is how to deal with the situation while retaining your sanity. If instead you were asking "what makes a person kill somebody", I am not a psychologist and have nothing to tell you.

[ Saturday, May 06, 2006 23:02: Message edited by: Zeviz ]

--------------------
Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #35
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:
This is probably among the biggest unpleasant revelations you could have about somebody.
Thank you for your detailed and serious post. You mean my revelation about the suspect here, do you not?
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:
And just because you knew his character, doesn't mean you know anything about the person behind the mask. So you shouldn't scrutinize his character's actions for signs of anomaly - if he is a good role-player there aren't any. Instead of trying to twist your morality into knots emphasizing with killer instead of victims, just accept that you didn't really know this person and that his online persona was different from his real personality.
Stunning as it is, this is nothing special about online forum acquaintances, imho. Real life is role playing, too.

I find myself narrowing in on the question which is the "real personality?" There are strong mismatches between his online character and reality becoming apparent in hindsight that I do not want to go into. However, the photo of him playing with his son was taken "OOC" and his nervous breakdown after the slaying is also reality. Is the personality during the hour or so during which he is suspected to have committed the slaying more "real" and if so why? Is the "real" personality the one that is most negative, or do we have to accept that there are multiple "real" personalities according to the context? Alec's appears to allege this for veterans switching back to civilian life.

quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:
Of course this applies only if your question is how to deal with the situation while retaining your sanity.
I myself am feeling fine, thank you. I was just sharing something I thought would be worthwhile to discuss. It does border on my question of all questions, however: How do you know yourself that you are "real" rather than "dreaming", i.e. Plato's allegory of the cave

[ Sunday, May 07, 2006 00:26: Message edited by: too long, don't read, too many CRs ]

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Agent
Member # 3364
Profile Homepage #36
quote:
Originally written by too long, don't read, too many CRs:

I find myself narrowing in on the question which is the "real personality?"
I would think that the 'real' personality comes out more readily in an online forum, then it does in real life. RL has so many expectations from family and friends and much larger consequences for breaking those expectations. It is much easier to tell a complete stranger, whom you have no obligation to ever talk to again, who you really are. Especially those deep dark secrets that warrent rejection.

--------------------
"Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05

"Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #37
quote:
Originally written by Jewels:

Especially those deep dark secrets that warrent rejection.
I'd like to object to this part. When it comes to the deeply-buried stuff, I'd much rather talk with somebody who I know well, rather than a group of near-strangers. I agree that relative anonymity makes it easier to be yourself, but there's just a point at which things get convoluted or painful enough that you're only willing to get into them with someone you trust.

And as for the uncalled-for Plato reference... I feel like I'm here, and that's good enough for me. End of speculation, on with the show.

--------------------
Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
La Canaliste
Member # 5563
Profile #38
quote:
Originally written by Jewels:

quote:
Originally written by too long, don't read, too many CRs:

I find myself narrowing in on the question which is the "real personality?"
I would think that the 'real' personality comes out more readily in an online forum, then it does in real life. RL has so many expectations from family and friends and much larger consequences for breaking those expectations. It is much easier to tell a complete stranger, whom you have no obligation to ever talk to again, who you really are. Especially those deep dark secrets that warrent rejection.

Which is the "real" personality, and to whom you would be more likely to reveal it is a complex issue.

There are things in my life that I'd be far more likely to disclose online than to anybody I know, because I've seen the repercussions of revealing such things in RL. I could simply disappear and never have to see the reactions of online acquaintances. On the other hand we have seen liars and fantasists here on Spidweb who have constructed webs of deceit that ended up hurting people who initially took them seriously.

The persona that we construct here is different from the persona we use offline, and in different contexts offline, because an individual's personality is actually too big to show more than one aspect of it at once. We reveal part of who we are, some part by choice, some part involuntarily, and then our interlocutors construct a mental image that incorporates the elements that they notice from our posts.

If there are elements that cannot be incorporated consistently then we have three options. We can rearrange the mental image to include them, if the new pieces can be made to fit. We can ignore the incongruous elements and continue with the image that is familiar and comfortable. Otherwise we can try to fit the new elements, and if we cannot make them fit, we may decide that there has been some deception involved.

I think Procrastinator is struggling between the feeling that there was deception and trying to make the new pieces fit. In my experience it is easier to try to forget an extreme experience, because remembering it tends initially to recall all the associated feelings. One thus tries to wall off that part of oneself and pretend it is not there. This creates a piece of oneself that seems not to fit, so it is not surprising that it would appear to others that it does not fit: that it is incongruous.

--------------------
I am a mater of time and how .

Deep down, you know you should have voted for Alcritas!
Posts: 387 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #39
Why should all our respective pieces "fit" together? We construct the personality in such a way as we hope it will appear appealing to our community. Some pieces we will never want to show or even admit to ourselves that they exist - until we break up and the relation to ourselves becomes desperate. In this context guilt is just the evildoer's assumption that (s)he will get away with it unnoticed - at least for some marvelous time. I understand that.
However, why would a slayer then call the police immediately afterwards, stay at the scene, and sink into utter despair? If it is in order to adopt a victim's role that would be more acceptable and ameliorate any retribution, it works on me: Something must have been broken since a long time and it makes me feel very sorry.

--------------------
The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.
The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference.
The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference.
And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.
Because of indifference, one dies before one actually dies. (not mine)
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #40
Dr., saunders mentioned the walled off parts.

One of my patients, a woman, was a guerilla fighter in South America twenty years ago. It's only now that her husband can approach her from behind and touch her shoulder without her trying to kill him immediately, before she has even had the time to grasp that it is him, that it is the now, the present, no war, that war is past. Extreme, life threatening experiences seem to imprint automatic responses very deeply into us. It is, as if a piece of yourself becomes frozen in time, and when triggered, takes over completely, substituting the 'now' with the 'then'.

--------------------
Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00

Pages