Suicide
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Warrior
Member # 4034
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written Friday, March 12 2004 07:47
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I think were already in a never ending depate on suicide. -------------------- "When one thinks to him or herself about who they really are, They usually come out of it empty handed for the question be -not who am i-, but -what have i acheived?-" Experimental forum Posts: 113 | Registered: Friday, February 27 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4034
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written Friday, March 12 2004 08:09
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This post may make some people angry. As I have read and re-read the posts I have realized I am misunderstood in my thinking. Some of you have come to the conclusion that I think my views should be universal. quote:I do not expect the rest of humanity to react to my posts or agree with them. I am expressing my thoughts and opinions by putting myself into the situation. I never said that I think that the rest of the world should take my beliefs and throw their own away. I also noticed that people have decided that I think that all suicidle people are weak. When in the post I know that I said it doesn't apply to everyone. Maybe I wrote it wrong? elf said what I ment in a better way. quote:. I have also noticed that people say I should show more emotion on such a sensitive topic. For those people I say. Are you so shallow as to believe that you can read someones emotions. My emotions are far to complex to write in meer words. Saying I'm sad and making a graemlin does not express my true feeling for this topic. -------------------- "When one thinks to him or herself about who they really are, They usually come out of it empty handed for the question be -not who am i-, but -what have i acheived?-" Experimental forum Posts: 113 | Registered: Friday, February 27 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Friday, March 12 2004 09:40
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Chuck, this is a very complex subject that affects most of us very deeply. It goes to the limits of what we can express in writing and probably beyond the limits of what we can understand. When I I try to reread the thread from the beginning, i get lost before I get to the end. Let us assume that we all try our best and not get saddened by the unintented (I am sure) misunderstandings of our partners who are trying to contribute their best too. Don't be sad! I have learned more in this thread than I ever imagined would be possible without personal contact. In addition, I think that this community may come out profoundly changed. How about you? Remember the post by Jorgos Olympos written February 20, 2004 01:26 quote:The attitude of the poster's in this thread is very much changed with respect to that. Hmmh, now that I write this - it is a pity that I cannot update the karma ratings I have submitted earlier for member whom I had not understood properly. [ Friday, March 12, 2004 09:55: Message edited by: yet another procrastinator ] Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, March 12 2004 09:48
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Chuck, have you been an outsider? Do you know what's it's like? And I don't mean just being teased a few times. I mean being physically beaten on a daily basis every day of school for your entire life. Think about that for a minute or two. And I mean really think about it. This is a board for an RPG company, so I assume that you have some experience with RPG's. Think about roleplaying a character whose every word is subject to ridicule, whose every action becomes mimicked and mocked incessantly, and whose very presence is an affront to a significant group around that character. Now really imagine that tomorrow, when you go to school, you have to be that person. All of the people that you think of as being your friends right now, those people would isolate you and start hitting you, beating you until you were bloody, and you knew that the teachers couldn't or wouldn't do anything about it. Imagine knowing that this wouldn't be the only time that this would happen, but it would happen at least once a month, sometimes once a week, every week, for the forseeable future. This sounds like a wild exaggeration, doesn't it? It sounds like it couldn't be real. But for some people, this is a reality. It is their life. This is what is meant by someone "whose identity and selfassurance are dependant on belonging to the majority," as ef put it. We're not talking about, "I don't wear the same Britney Spears T-shirts as everyone else, boo-hoo." We're talking about daily, hourly abuse from your entire peer group for years on end. Sure, not everyone who's depressed goes through this, but some do. Some have identifiable chemical reasons, and some have circumstantial reasons, and others have other kinds of reasons. None are trivial. And that's the most important thing to keep in mind: respect for others' situations that may be considerably different from what you can even imagine. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, March 12 2004 11:34
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If you want to know what real depression is like, come to coastal northeastern Australia sometime and get stung by an irukandji jellyfish or infected with dengue fever by a mosquito bite. These both produce severe depression out of all proportion to the severity of the illness; in fact, depression is worst when the patient is physically recovering, and can linger for months afterwards. Both syndromes are rarely fatal from physical causes alone: patients are hundreds of times more likely to commit suicide afterwards than to die from the disease, and they usually do so during or soon after recovery. I'd say that's pretty convincing evidence that depression is, or at least can be, fundamentally related to a chemical imbalance. -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, March 12 2004 12:02
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quote:We are still animals. Intelligent animals, yes, but we're not free of all instinct. Jump at someone and they flinch. Scare someone and they physically prepare for physical fighting or quick escape, even if such a reaction is worse than useless in the situation. We mate at any time because humans, like some other species, do not experience estrus. We have no special season for mating, so we mate whenever we feel like it. Romantic passion is in large part driven by various signalling chemicals, and sex is certainly regulated on a very instinctual level. ?Alorael, who isn't saying that humans are no better than animals, but we're also not free of all physical control. All kinds of studies have linked physical and mental states, physical causes for mental problems, and mental causes for physical problems. Nerves are clusters of cells, and cells can go wrong physically to cause many, many problems, from depression to paralysis to convulsions. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Friday, March 12 2004 12:09
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I'd like to speak up for Chuck, who's not a cold fish, but tries to digest the information he gets. I've seen a boy die because of treatment as you describe it, Kelandon. Yes, it happens. To prevent misunderstanding: I meant that strength is something you find within yourself. You are not strong just because you belong to a majority that backs you. The attackers in your story are brutal, not strong. Chuck, you said in one of your posts that we are like that, that we like to see people suffer. Is that a sign of weakness or of strength, what do you think? We often fight in others what we are not able to accept within ourselves, what we do not want to know about ourselves, what we do not want to see. But hiding from my shadow is hiding from myself. Being willing to see myself is being on my side. Why should I not want to be on my side? Why should I want to be less than I am? -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Friday, March 12 2004 20:13
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Life can be good, bad or indifferent. You have to make choices, good, bad or indifferent. But there is no point in ending your own life prematurely. There is always a possibility that things could get better. But there is no guarnntee that there is anything after death. So live life as full as you can. On a more sensible note, whatever anyone can do to you remember that there is always a way to wreak worse havoc on them, you just have to think of one. If the b-hutches try to get you down, stand up and play merry heck with 'em. They knock one of your teeth out, come back home with three of theirs. Meh, Bleh, Feh. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Saturday, March 13 2004 09:10
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One, actually, not three, according to something Hammurabi wrote recently (well, relatively  ). There's a very big difference in that.But I think that's not part of this topic. Yes, things always might get better. But there can be points at which you will not see how they ever could. -------------------- Visit The Santharian Dream and its RP board. Or the Encyclopaedia Ermariana! Got a brain? Go to Polaris! "It is as if everyone had lost their sense To a conspiracy for downfall and desperance And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey (freely translated). Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Saturday, March 13 2004 09:41
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quote: quote:This makes sense in theory, but to make a right theory useful, is has to trickle through into everyday life. Does learning have to make us old or is there a short-cut? Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Saturday, March 13 2004 16:26
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Mh. Well, if it was not more than a theory to me, I would not have written about it. I do not quite understand what it is that you want a shortcut for. For becoming aware of your shadow? Being on your own side? [ Saturday, March 13, 2004 16:32: Message edited by: ef ] -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
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written Sunday, March 14 2004 10:42
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Dear ef, I understand that you are convinced that what you wrote is right and your words sound convincing to me. However, whenever I try to explain it with an example or any practical consequence I fail. The words mean something to you, they mean something to me but they have to be put into a context to be explainable. This is what I call a theory. If it is useful, should it not provide insights in a prospective way rather than explaining the past. I understand the past better as I grow older. Speeding up my insight so that it becomes relevant for my present is what I meant by "taking a short-cut". I would welcome an exchange of views among board members and I am using my signature to ask for reactions. This is not uncommon and may be more effective for ideas that take time to trickle through than a new topic. Also, I am afraid that the suicide topic which had a rocketing number of posts in the beginning is going to die because some of us are talking above the heads of many others. If you would like to recommend any specific changes to my signature, please contact me whether by private message or on this board. I value your ideas and will apologize if you should find this appropriate. [ Sunday, March 14, 2004 10:57: Message edited by: yet another procrastinator ] Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Sunday, March 14 2004 12:26
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YAP, just because you asked: your signature is a mystery for me. Because I do not fight my own flaws in others. When I see somebody, having the same blemish like me, I feel sympathy for this person and think: "Great I'm not the only fool". I rather would fight peoples faults, when they are totally different from mine. But anyway, I rarely fight. I'm an avoider. -------------------- ^ö^ Vegetarians are sexy. Solar power is the wave of the future. Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1814
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written Sunday, March 14 2004 18:52
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I can't figure out what it is that makes a person commit suicide. I have noticed that the people I knew who have were extremely intelligent, and for some reason were easily driven insane by horrible things that happened to them. A friend of the family had an I.Q of like 180. He killed himself for what appeared to be no reason. Everyone liked him a lot. He left a note but the cops confiscated it so no one knows what his reason was. Suicide shouldn't be considered an act of weakness and suicidal people shouldn't be treated badly or as a maniac. I once was completely insane because of an abusive life and emotional trauma. At age 9 I tried to kill myself,but someone stopped me in the act. For years after that I was treated like a criminal. I also have a good friend who has been slowly killing himself with every kind of drug there is. Illegal and over the counter. He is extremely smart and many people like him a lot but he doesn't know it and for some reason can't control himself. He isn't weak, he's emotionally destroyed from years of abuse from a family member. Something no one deserves. anyone who says suicide is a sign of weakness should be shot. it is a sign of something horribly damaging. I don't know why some people threaten to do it when they have no problem though. I've never not had a reason until now. Edit: Kelandon, my mother had the same thing happen to her in school. I'm sorry anyone has to go through that. I cant stand anyone that doesn't believe that things can be that bad or worse. [ Sunday, March 14, 2004 19:01: Message edited by: GremlinJoe ] Posts: 215 | Registered: Friday, August 30 2002 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Monday, March 15 2004 01:24
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To procrastinator: sorry, went on a weekend trip. I'll PM you, as this is completely unrelated to the current topic. Also there seems to be some misunderstanding somewhere. To clarify that I'll use the german language in writing to you, if you don't mind. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4034
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written Monday, March 15 2004 05:34
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I see what you mean Kelandon. Most of what you said I have expeireanced. Being a military child I moved around so much I didn't have time to ajust and fit in. I have always been the odd ball out, someone that people make harass,poke fun at and more. I have never been beaten up, being tall makes most people think twice about trying to take me out. however that didnt stop them from making me the object of their jokes for years. All the way up to high school which i'm still attending. I have suffered a lot of emotional stress. I hate to say this but I even cried in class ounce. Becuase of two girls. so yes Kelandon I am an outsider. But I have always found strength to stop myself from doing suicide...Or murder which has crossed my mind more than ounce..sounds horrible doesnt it. But I expierance it on a dayly basis. As for you question elf...That one is hard to answer. I think its a sign of weakness. A universal weakness(i'm still subject to change this)of man. How many kids do you know that likes to shoot birds or rips the hair off of a barbie your friend has that your jealous of? How many times have you seen people trying to make themselves look better by picking on someone smaller than them. Most of you would say...everyone. Because at one time or another people do his stuff to try and cover their weakness. Elf can you explain the last part of your post in more detail? [ Monday, March 15, 2004 05:35: Message edited by: Chuck ] -------------------- "When one thinks to him or herself about who they really are, They usually come out of it empty handed for the question be -not who am i-, but -what have i acheived?-" Experimental forum Posts: 113 | Registered: Friday, February 27 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3220
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written Monday, March 15 2004 06:59
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quote:This does happen far too often, and while I would never agree that someone needs to be tormented, a little dose of one's own medicine might work wonders for the attitudes of some people. Covering one's weakness by denigrating others really only makes one look weaker, as the truly strong (in my opinion) do not have to cut other people down to make themselves look better. I speak as someone whose middle, junior high, and high school years are best forgotten, though they did teach me one very important lesson: don't try to conform to other people's rules, because when you do, they won't care anyway. [ Monday, March 15, 2004 07:01: Message edited by: dareva ] Posts: 437 | Registered: Sunday, July 13 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4034
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written Monday, March 15 2004 07:36
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I fully agree with dareva. When I get out of high school I will hit my head to try and lose the long and short term memory of it. -------------------- "When one thinks to him or herself about who they really are, They usually come out of it empty handed for the question be -not who am i-, but -what have i acheived?-" Experimental forum Posts: 113 | Registered: Friday, February 27 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, March 15 2004 08:52
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Well, I want to at least conserve the small amount of knowledge I was filled with in that quaint place. The trauma is a small price to pay. Or so I hope. -------------------- Visit The Santharian Dream and its RP board. Or the Encyclopaedia Ermariana! Got a brain? Go to Polaris! "It is as if everyone had lost their sense To a conspiracy for downfall and desperance And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey (freely translated). Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Monday, March 15 2004 11:41
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Answering Chuck's post: "We often fight in others what we are not able to accept within ourselves, what we do not want to know about ourselves, what we do not want to see." The Macho who harrasses softer men may not hide from his own softness - let's imagine he has little of that - but he certainly passes judgement. And by doing so, he feels to be in the right and strong, a 'real' man. That's the effect of judgement on us, we feel an uplifting, we feel our value, because we are not like that. If I met him, I'd say: that's interesting. Why does that bully need to feel uplifted? I mean, he is already strong, why can't he look on softness with equanimity as on something that has nothing to do with him? What does it have to do with him that is so irritating that he has to put a ban of judgement on it? If he told me, that soft is weak and weak is bad: well, he doesn't consider himself a weakling, so what does weakness have to do with him that it has to be avoided at all cost? "But hiding from my shadow is hiding from myself." To shorten the path of questioning, maybe I'd find in the end that his mother didn't like emotional boys, and he learned to avoid emotion, if he wanted to be loved. I know I'm simplifying things, but if you follow the chain backwards, you always come upon something of that nature: I can only be accepted/loved, if... It is interesting and tragic, that the paths we then choose to find love/acceptance are often such that prevent us from getting it. And selflove, in the bully's case we'd have to say: I can only love myself, if I do not feel. How's he going to do that? "Being willing to see myself is being on my side. Why should I not want to be on my side?" He does not have to change. But selfacceptance will be easier without having to fight shadows, in this case with the realization that a boy's expression of emotions is not a sign of weakness or of being 'wrong' in the child. Why should he not become aware of the presence of his mother's values within him and come up with something authentically his own in their stead? "Why should I be less than I am?" Even a bully might learn that the occasional expression of soft emotion is less dangerous than he thought it to be. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4034
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written Tuesday, March 16 2004 07:40
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Please try and answer these questions as a suicidle person might. What is the role of Providence in the affairs of men? what does life mean? what makes a life worthwhile? How should we love our lives? How does each of us fit into the granduer design? (Providence-Foresight; care; especially, the foresight and care which God manifests for his creatures; hence, God himself, regarded as exercising a constant wise prescience.) -------------------- "When one thinks to him or herself about who they really are, They usually come out of it empty handed for the question be -not who am i-, but -what have i acheived?-" Experimental forum Posts: 113 | Registered: Friday, February 27 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, March 16 2004 13:12
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quote:I'm sure there are plenty of people who commit suicide who are atheists, or agnostics, or just too spiritually apathetic to even consider some of those questions. To them, life is a biological accident. Life sucks, and it has no point. There's no reason to go on living, especially when everyone hates you and every day hurts. To those of a more religious bent, Providence is obviously not present in their lives, or if it is it's only to take sadistic joy in throwing more obstacles in the way. Life is a cruel game. Sure, others love it, but God isn't out to get them. In the grand puzzle of life, someone was that extra piece that didn't fit anywhere. Or, of course, there are those who feel even worse in their suicidal depression because they're letting God down. He created everyone, there is a divine plan, and suicide is a sin. But life is just too hard to live, and although God will be disappointed and it may mean eternity in hell, there's no way to go on struggling through day after miserable day. ?Alorael, who is sure there are as many views of life as there are people on the planet. Just understand that people who are depressed don't see the world like someone who is healthy. They often aren't physically capable of it because of defective synaptic function in brain neurons. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, March 16 2004 18:28
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While we mentioned religion... some religious people commit suicide because they feel completely overwhelmed with their own sin. Like an anorexic person about his/her weight, the amount of sin actually involved is irrelevant; the person may be nearly a saint in everday life and do very little wrong, but those few little things seem overwhelming. Or the person may be a sinner in every sense of the word. It doesn't really matter. It's the fact of the obsession with sin that is more important than the degree of sin itself. I think it is this that makes some religious people commit suicide, this feeling of being so sinful that one is completely lost to the mercy of whatever divinity in which one believes. -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1892
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written Wednesday, March 17 2004 03:38
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Through out my life, I have allways been an outcast. Floating around the edges of society, but not the dregs. I still lived by my own code, but everyone began to make fun of me in third grade. I briefly considerd suicide for about five minutes before realizing, Their Idiots! I have too much potential to let it go to waste because of their stupidity. Instead I chose to learn, to anylize what they had used against me, and Now I am the Impressive mental mass sitting in front of my computer, typing. The main group of idiots never stopped making fun of me, but the main mass realized that I was mentaly supierier andthat it was moraly wrong for them to make Me consider suicied. So therefore, just rember that they are picking on you because you have more potential then they do. That they allways pick on guiniessess. On ocasion, you might find that you are one of these guineuissess. -------------------- Share this Dragon If you do, Then Lucky End For them and You ----------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ?Alorael, whose addiction is going strong. The nice thing about liquid skribbane extract is that it's far more concentrated. It only takes a few gallons to get his fix, whereas chewing leaves would take forever. Literally. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fall under the shadow Posts: 98 | Registered: Sunday, September 15 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4034
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written Wednesday, March 17 2004 05:00
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While all of you have nice points you didnt answer any of the questions besides Your views of Providence. But while where on it. Religous activity does play a large role in suicide. Take Alqueda for example. They believe they are fighting a holy war. Hence, they believe that their kamikazee attempts are the will of Ala. -------------------- "When one thinks to him or herself about who they really are, They usually come out of it empty handed for the question be -not who am i-, but -what have i acheived?-" Experimental forum Posts: 113 | Registered: Friday, February 27 2004 08:00 |