Suicide
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Apprentice
Member # 4162
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written Sunday, March 28 2004 21:45
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quote:This is a very sensitive topic given it's implications..yet I would say it is not an intrinsically Christian view point, whether it is Catholic (i.e. 'inspired doctrine') or what be it, maybe so. However there is no actual condemnation of suicide in the Bible. Personally I dont see how anyone who because of their obviously immense despair takes their own life is deserving of punishment. Generalisations about being weak tend to look at all human experience as being relatively equal, which does not appear to be the case. One person can endure the loss of a friend or a difficult situation whereas another will find the experience tragic beyond words. So comparisons based on classification of 'weak' have the inarticulate lack of tending to suggest that the individual's level of resistence was below average. Whereas it may well be that the magnitude of personal experience cannot be compared between individuals. In sum I would reserve judgement of others, on most topics for lack of knowing better, but especially in areas of suicide where it is callous to judge them so negatively after such tragedy. On a slightly different note, predictors of happiness place belief systems as one of the highest sustainable factors. Ironically, I suppose in our society, income and other materialistic based values are not scored as highly on what determines sustainable happiness. Additionally, in light of the above, it's quite possible that if someone has a world view where meaning is a little less arbitrary. Then this combination of potential levels of happiness and personal philosophy may infuse a type of predispostion which is more resilent (by virtue of perspective, rather than claims of personal strenght) to suicidale inclinations. quote:Slightly off topic but this interpretation of Hell is based on mistranslation and persistent solecism. Instead of diverting the subject, since you are somewhat interested please go to this thread and read from the second page on (my user name is Thun) - http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/showthread.php?t=317287&page=2&pp=30 If you have any questions, please ask away, as Im rather ardent on this topic since it causes so much misunderstanding and suffering. I suggest either posting in the forwarded thread or emailing me. Im presently occupied with uni obligations (yes I see the contradiction  ) until friday.Posts: 36 | Registered: Sunday, March 28 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Sunday, March 28 2004 22:20
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quote:I do not agree with you, but we've discussed this point already, so I suggest that you read the thread from page 2 or 3 onward. I'm with Thunvael who reminds you to 'not judge your neighbour, before you have not walked a mile in his mocassins'. Away from that, clinical depression is also a physical disorder of brain chemistry. Myself, I do not believe in punishing Gods, and I'd like to differentiate between institutionalised religions and the essential spiritual Oneness we all share. I've always wondered how it is possible to trust a deity who is less loving, understanding and acknowledging than we humans find ourselves capable to be. I know that christianity believes that God had his own son crucified to atone for our sins. That deed is absolutely meaningless, if our 'weaknesses' still condemn us to hell. But my own interpretation differs anyway: to me the very much overlooked message is that of resurrection. No matter how crucified you feel yourself to be, nothing ever touches or hurts the spiritual being you are, which though within a body is not confined by it and survives undamaged and whole. [ Sunday, March 28, 2004 22:44: Message edited by: ef ] -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3621
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written Monday, March 29 2004 00:04
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The thread is becoming more difficult for me 'cause I don't believe in God. But > nothing ever touches or hurts the spiritual > being you are, which though within a body is > not confined by it and survives undamaged and > whole Really please no. I prefer a crual God. I have done so much during my youth to control my body, and you just say it does not change my spiritual part, so it was a really a waste of time. Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, October 30 2003 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, March 29 2004 05:33
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quote:I think the point was that the things that might make one depressed or suicidal don't damage the soul, rather than physical sin not mattering. Controlling your body is a good thing in pretty much any belief system; ef was just presenting a belief system that says (I think) that (EDIT: meh, I realized upon further reflection that I phrased this wrong. I think the point was that there is some part of us that is not damaged by physical things, and therefore we can reach to it for strength in order to be resilient no matter how bad our physical situation is. Not sure how much I believe this specifically, but I can believe the argument that one can always look deep down for strength.) I don't believe in a traditional religion, either, but I'm not surprised that a thread about suicide turned to religion for answers, because suicide brings up all sorts of issues about an afterlife and sin and damnation and all that. I suspect that most of us live in a society greatly influenced by Christianity (anywhere in Europe, either of the Americas, or Australia), and Christianity said for years that suicide was among the greatest sins a person could commit. Personally, I think that suicide is a mistake in virtually all cases, euthanasia being one possible exception, but the thought that an all-powerful god would inflict more suffering on a person who had to escape from life by any means possible because it was so painful... well, I find that concept of God distasteful, I suppose. I'd rather believe that if there is an afterlife, it's about learning, rather than about punishment and reward. [ Monday, March 29, 2004 06:07: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!! (The home of BoA's HLPM v1.1!) Rate my scenarios! Northern Kingdom 0: Prologue High Level Party Maker Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Monday, March 29 2004 07:43
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Not all religions envision God as being such a punitive and merciless entity. As a Hindu, I believe in a "God" (really a sort of universal soul, known as Brahman) that has created Earth as a sort of testing ground for the immortal "souls" (atman) within each of us, which guide our thoughts, words, and deeds. The body, in Hindu belief, is nothing more than a shell for this atman. All atman desire unity with the universal Brahman, a formless bliss, free of all worldly concerns. However, to be capable of uniting with Brahman, an atman must first attain a state, after much maturity and learning gained over multiple lives on Earth, of even-mindedness, a sort of contented state in which the atman becomes immune to all worldly desires and allurements. Murders and the like committed on Earth mean very little, as the killing of the body does absolutely nothing to the atman, which simply assumes a new bodily form. Thus, these crimes are not a cause for punishment, but for continued time on Earth, in order for the atman causing such acts to mature and move away from the state of immaturity which leads to negative emotions strong enough to spur such destructive action. Thus, when one commits suicide, one is merely stripping one bodily shell away, to take another, new one. Of course, this doesn't guarantee a new life as miserable as the last one. When an atman takes a new form and casts off its old one, it also casts off its memories and experiences of the past life, taking with it only its gains in maturity and spiritual knowledge, accumulated through many lives. If the circustances in one's new life are superior to those in the past life, it is quite possible for the life following a life ending in suicide to be a comfortable, happy, and productive one. -------------------- Stughalf "The death-knell of the republic had rung as soon as the active power became lodged in the hands of those who sought, not to do justice to all citizens, rich and poor alike, but to stand for one special class and for its interests as opposed to the interests of others."- Theodore Roosevelt, 1903. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3621
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written Monday, March 29 2004 08:54
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> All atman desire unity with the universal > Brahman ? That means ... ? They are immortal but their wish is just as stable as a piece of stone ? Is it the price for immortality ? Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, October 30 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3621
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written Monday, March 29 2004 09:35
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Spongiform Stug, sorry, my last message is rather stupid. Really words about religion do not speak to me  When I read your post again, suicide seems really a detail for you. As I understand it, you mean that it is a detail in front of your religion. But what is it for the one who don't suicide (and remain in life) ? Suicide - like death - is always a separation. Does the death signify the same sadness for you than for us ? Do you also think about someone who suicides : "a life that ends too soon..." ? Or do you think : OK, I am sad because I am not going to see him/her any more, but I hope his next life will be better, so part of me is happy ? Oh really, again my words are stupid, but after your post, I am really not sure we feel the same emotions. So thanks for your answer. Posts: 62 | Registered: Thursday, October 30 2003 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4167
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written Monday, March 29 2004 09:54
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quote:I completely accept your point of view and I have read how this issue was addressed, but I feel that Chuck was merely mis-stating "weakness" for "lack of strength". I'm not saying that someone who does not commit suicide is stronger than someone who doesn't, just that in SOME cases, the cause of suicide may have been the arising of a problem that a given person is unable to cope with, or a problem that the given person does not believe (s)he can cope with. quote:I wasn't interpreting hell, necessarily, merely the fact that some suicidal people are attempting to 'cease to exist', because they find existence painful. Presuming there is a form of afterlife, and thought/existence does exist in this afterlife, there is a possibility that the pain of existence may still exist, and possibly for eternity. As such, I was trying to show that the pain is not a punishment from Deity, but a self-inflicted punishment, or a pain that is just there. I was also trying to prevent the introduction of only Christianity, but all religions (which is why I said 'Deity' instead of 'God' - seeing how 'Deity' is more religiously applicable). Posts: 2 | Registered: Sunday, March 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4034
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written Tuesday, March 30 2004 04:08
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Hmm...you know I cant read this forum from start to finish, so I would like to get a printable version of the whole thing as it is. Is there a way to do this? sry for posting off topic. -------------------- "When one thinks to him or herself about who they really are, They usually come out of it empty handed for the question be -not who am i-, but -what have i acheived?-" Experimental forum Posts: 113 | Registered: Friday, February 27 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, March 30 2004 11:41
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There's a "Printer-friendly view of this topic" link at the bottom of the page, just below the lower set of posting buttons. -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 618
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written Tuesday, March 30 2004 12:13
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Two things: One, we are all entitled to our own opinion, in my case I would probably prefer to argue to the end of the Earth than admit I was wrong about one of my personal viewpoints (me having so few of them) and I'd rather not argue over issues of a sensitive nature, because with me, they nearly always become VERY heated. You have your opinion I have mine, it's a big ole opinion party! I'll bring the drinks, you get the party snacks! (that was sarcasm by the way) Two: I think the term that the people who are referring to weakness actually mean, but couldn't think of the exact terms is: "lack of self-belief". It is a necessary thing if you are going to continue in this world (or next if that's what you believe) with any success in your personal goals. -------------------- I like to say quack because I can, I like to say moooo because I can, but I don't like saying ergle flmp because I can never pronounce phenomenon first try. In conclusion, quack, moooo and phenonemenonmenonnon... Oh Poo. http://s4.invisionfree.com/Ultimate_RP/index.php Try it! Posts: 1487 | Registered: Sunday, February 10 2002 08:00 |