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The arrow of time in General
Thuryl
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Member # 869
 written Tuesday, July 19 2005 20:02 Profile Homepage #49
Apologies for the double post.

quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

This reminds me of a question that has been bugging me for a while. Earth may not be a closed system, but surely the Universe is. The arising of something as incredibly complex as life and it's subsequent evolution into it's current unbelievably varied state contradicts the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, surely? Or could you say that the Universe right now is less ordered overall (despite the inclusion of Earth) than it was a second after the Big Bang?

Actually, that question doesn't bug me. The one that I wonder about is how does mainstream science answer it?
Firstly, try not to fall into the trap of equating entropy with the popular notion of "disorder".

Secondly, the smallest amount of entropy a system can theoretically have is zero, so no matter how highly "ordered" a system is at any given point in time, its existence can't actually reduce the universe's entropy; it can just contribute to it by a smaller amount. And the universe is a big, big place. So one planet remaining in a state of relatively low entropy isn't going to have a huge effect on the entropy of the universe as a whole.

By analogy, think of throwing an ice cube into the ocean. No matter how cold the ice cube is, it can't be colder than absolute zero, and the ocean is so big that one ice cube won't make a discernable difference to its average temperature. Likewise, there's a minimal amount of entropy that any system can have; no matter how "ordered" you make one planet, it's just not possible to keep its entropy low enough to balance out the trend in the rest of the universe.

It's also worth noting that the universe as a whole isn't anywhere near maximum entropy yet; that will only happen billions of years down the track, after all the stars in the universe have burned out.

[ Tuesday, July 19, 2005 20:08: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The arrow of time in General
Thuryl
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Member # 869
 written Tuesday, July 19 2005 19:57 Profile Homepage #48
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I suppose it is, but I'm afraid physics pretty much kicked itself free of semantics a long time ago, and observations like that don't really get acknowledged as advances any more. The main question is why time goes one way. If we could settle that, the question of which way it goes would be less profound, but still real, even though whichever way it went would determine our terms 'past' and 'future'. For whichever way it does go, one can still ask, why not the other way?
A thought: maybe it's just not possible (at least for a human brain) to store information in a form in which it can be usefully retrieved without relying on processes that increase entropy.

Maybe it's overly optimistic to think this is actually true, but if it were it'd solve the problem rather neatly. To test it, though, we'd need a better understanding of the physicochemical processes by which memories are stored and retrieved. Considering that consciousness theory is a philosophical quagmire at the moment, don't hold your breath on an answer from those quarters.

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Totally Awesome GI Plug in General
Thuryl
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Member # 869
 written Tuesday, July 19 2005 04:43 Profile Homepage #1
Aww. And I thought this was going to be about a new device for plugging up the gastrointestinal system. :(

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Wish list for BoA in Blades of Avernum
Thuryl
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Member # 869
 written Tuesday, July 19 2005 03:52 Profile Homepage #106
I assure you, I didn't. On the other hand, I'm not going to stop people from expressing themselves just because they choose to do so in a slightly annoying manner. I hope you don't think any less of me for this stance.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
The arrow of time in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Tuesday, July 19 2005 03:45 Profile Homepage #33
quote:
Originally written by Overwhelming:

Is there any physics equation where the time line can be reversed? I don't think so.
Actually, pretty much all the laws of physics are symmetrical with respect to time, at least locally. That's the problem. A photon travelling forwards in time in one direction is physically indistinguishable from a photon travelling backwards in time in the other direction. An electron travelling forwards in time is indistinguishable from a positron travelling backwards in time.

quote:
If Big Bang existed, then we have to agree that was a point in time where entropy was a minimum. But that doesn't mean that time didn't exist or stoped. You could stare to that dot in space for 5 seconds, and that's elapsed time.
Time doesn't really have much meaning at a singularity. (And besides, even if it did, you can't observe a singularity, so your choice of phrasing is unfortunate.)

quote:
Although there's lot of equations that use time, time is an abstract notion, not a physical event, so it can't be changed or manipulated, because time, in a certain way, doesn't exist, it's just an abstract notion. (I don't know if I'm being clear about what I mean).
You're not, but perhaps I'm in no position to hold that against you.

quote:
Although it's true that there is a tendency for entropy, entropy doesn't quite equate to disorder. I know its definition and I know that what i'm saying seems to go directly agains't that definition, but even disorder leads to order (complex, organized and ordered systems (like life beings) were formed and better organized through time, for example).
I know quite well what entropy is, hence my reference to the number of states a system can have in my previous post.

quote:
Linking this with the fact that time doesn't physically exist (it's an abstraction), there's no way we could have future memmories.
Your conclusion does not follow from your premises. If time doesn't exist, in what way is the future different from the past?

[ Tuesday, July 19, 2005 03:47: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Rotdhizon vs Rotghroth in Geneforge Series
Thuryl
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Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 23:20 Profile Homepage #6
Some people have reported good results from making a single Thahd Shade and pumping up its Dexterity as much as possible; the point is to make a creation that's impossible to hit, and it works pretty well for the first couple of islands.

In general, though, you're right; there isn't a lot of point upgrading creations instead of just making more or better creations.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
The arrow of time in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 23:16 Profile Homepage #29
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

That's an interesting explanation. Does it mean that laws of thermodynamics make expansion of universe irreversible, regardless of mass? Or is the answer that if universe was massive enough to go from Big Bang to Big Crunch, laws of physics would have been different and we wouldn't have the law that enthropy must increase?
Good question. In fact, your question is so good that it's given headaches to serious theoretical physicists. The Big Bang and Big Crunch aren't completely symmetrical events, so a universal contraction doesn't necessarily violate thermodynamics (in the same way that the formation of a black hole doesn't).

But yeah, strange and wonderful things happen when you apply thermodynamics to the universe as a whole, especially when it's expanding or contracting, and I'm not really qualified to talk about them.

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Cursed Cursor! in Tech Support
Thuryl
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Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 23:07 Profile Homepage #9
Of course ADoS does, but the next person who asks might not. And considering the guy who offered has a post count barely in the double figures, he hasn't really been around long enough to judge who's trustworthy.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
I win! in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 17:50 Profile Homepage #34
You've managed six replies in this thread so far. Three more such threads and there's your 20.

[ Monday, July 18, 2005 17:51: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The arrow of time in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 17:48 Profile Homepage #27
Given the laws of physics, there can only be one temporal direction in which entropy tends to increase throughout the universe; entropy can't increase and then decrease again as one continues along the same temporal direction. Conveniently, time is asymmetrical in at least one other way too; it has an endpoint (the Big Bang). You can't just go on forever in either direction through time; you're either moving toward the Big Bang or away from it.

Now, at the Big Bang the universe is essentially in a state of minimal entropy; when the whole universe is compressed into a single point, there aren't really many different states it can be in. Therefore, entropy has to increase from the Big Bang onwards, defining the thermodynamic arrow of time. (If both ends of the universe were equivalent, they'd both have to be at maximum entropy and thus life couldn't arise, so we can eliminate that possibility from consideration based on our friend the anthropic principle. If time is cyclical, things get REALLY ugly and I don't want to think about the psychological implications.)

So now we at least have a good basis on which to define the direction time moves in. We're still left with the problem of why the brain records memories in the same direction as the thermodynamic arrow of time. I'm not entirely sure whether the fundamental reasons for it are physical, computational or evolutionary. I'll make another attempt when I have a better understanding of the question.

[ Monday, July 18, 2005 17:58: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Regrettable But in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 15:54 Profile Homepage #125
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

PS: TM's statement that Kel and I don't care about the community is very insulting. Just because I think that you can have fun without spouting obsenities in every other post doesn't mean that I "don't want to make this a better place." For example, Drew's statemens are usually funny and often very sharp, without inapropriate language or personal attacks in every other post.
The problem is that you're rarely around and posting on the forums these days; likewise, Kel seldom reads or posts on General. I can see how it's hard for some people to believe that you're motivated purely by the desire to improve the standards of discussion in a community you're only occasionally part of. Sure, you're active in General at the moment, but when your first significant action on returning to the community after a long absence is to attack another member, it doesn't reflect well on you.

[ Monday, July 18, 2005 15:56: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
The arrow of time in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 15:34 Profile Homepage #25
Seems to me that people are complicating the situation more than it needs to be. They're right about one thing, though; it's all about what's going on in the brain.

The first step is to think of memories as objects. Okay, they're not quite the same kind of physical objects as we're normally used to dealing with, and each memory isn't literally confined to a specific physical location in the brain that overlaps with no other memories. But the concept of an object is itself fuzzy enough that we can think of memories as objects anyway, in the sense that they are pieces of information stored in the brain.

Now, if a memory of event E exists at time t, then at time t we can remember event E. If no memory of event E exists at time t, then at time t we cannot remember event E. This much is obvious. So the question we're really asking is this: why does the formation of memories only occur in one temporal direction?

The easy answer, of course, is to say that the biochemical mechanisms the brain employs to form memories cause a net increase in entropy, which is why the psychological arrow of time aligns so neatly with the thermodynamic arrow. This is necessarily true as far as it goes, but it feels like a bit of a non-answer.

More as I think of it. It seems likely that anything that carries on from this line of argument is going to require a fairly rigorous idea of the physical differences between "past" and "future", since using the psychological differences between past and future to justify the psychological differences between past and future would be hopelessly circular. Saying that the past has happened already and the future hasn't happened yet won't do, because (as is my understanding) in a physical sense "has happened already" and "hasn't happened yet" aren't really very solid concepts for most things -- there are only a fairly small number of differences between the pastward and futureward directions which make temporal direction non-arbitrary.

[ Monday, July 18, 2005 15:45: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Time vs. Money in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 15:10 Profile Homepage #35
quote:
Originally written by Hectonkhyres:

Money and time, to a point, are the same thing. Going to work is essentially hacking pieces of your life off and selling them to the highest bidder. With the profits of the sale, you can actually go and do something worthwhile.
That's not really true, though. Some people enjoy their job and would do it even if not paid for it. Most people at least enjoy being at work more than they'd enjoy not existing for the same span of time.

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How evil is too evil> in Blades of Avernum
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 04:37 Profile Homepage #30
quote:
Originally written by Overwhelming:

Have you noticed that people demand a good motive for an evil guy to be evil, but don't care why a good guy is good? :P
Actually, that's not true. Characters who randomly show up out of the woodwork to help the player out are panned just as much as random unmotivated villains when they appear in BoE scenarios -- they're just less universal. When a character does something helpful to the party that's blatantly unreasonable and out of character for them, players complain just as much as when a character does something harmful that's blatantly unreasonable and out of character; look at some of the criticism of Spears on CSR for examples of this.

Likewise, the party (who are, if not actually "good", then at least carrying out actions that the player ought to sympathise with) should have sufficient motivation for doing whatever it is they're doing.

quote:
Anyway, I don't agree about good/evil blending. You can make "grey" characters without blending good/evil. Remember that "grey" is just white tainted black (or vice-versa), so the binary good/evil is always present. Keep that binary clear.
I'm not even sure what kind of distinction you're trying to make here.

As far as I'm concerned, all that's important is that each character in a scenario is believable; that their actions might plausibly be those of a real person placed in the same situation. It's very rare for real people to help others purely for the sake of doing good or harm others purely for the sake of doing evil, so from my perspective terms like "good" and "evil" are of no use to a storyteller.

[ Monday, July 18, 2005 04:54: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Time vs. Money in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 04:00 Profile Homepage #16
See, this is why Creator doesn't want to be called Creator any more. People keep confusing him with other people who have created things.

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Alright, NOW what in General
Thuryl
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Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 00:37 Profile Homepage #7
Mad Ambition is probably the most normal thing TM's ever made. That in itself is a little unsettling.

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Perfect shield in Geneforge Series
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Monday, July 18 2005 00:35 Profile Homepage #20
quote:
Originally written by Paulette:

PS : by curiosity, why all the characters are womenkind ?
Jeff has a thing about powerful women. It may not be premeditated, but it's not unconscious either; there's a reference to it hidden in the dialogue strings of Exile II (I think it's E2; maybe E3).

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Official Election Final Round Voting in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Sunday, July 17 2005 21:34 Profile Homepage #82
I'm only a couple of votes ahead at this point. Voters, if you haven't voted for me yet and want to show your support, now's the time!

[ Sunday, July 17, 2005 21:35: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Official Election Final Round Voting in General
Thuryl
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Member # 869
 written Sunday, July 17 2005 21:10 Profile Homepage #79
Riibu, if I tell you that I found that hilarious and am quite impressed by the effort that went into it, is there any chance I'll get your vote?

... well, it was worth a try.

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A long-expected Parting in General
Thuryl
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Member # 869
 written Sunday, July 17 2005 15:38 Profile Homepage #18
Well, this is a pity. Bye, Aran. Hope you find time for the forums again soon. And don't worry, I don't hold it against you that you urged your constituency to vote for Stug instead of me. :P

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"Blades of Geneforge" in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Sunday, July 17 2005 15:32 Profile Homepage #45
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

I know of a novel written in the second person. The protagonist is 'you'. It begins with you just having bought the book, and starting to read it, etc. Then it gets a bit weird. But you've got to love it for the title if nothing else: If On a Winter's Night a Traveller, by Italo Calvino (original in Italian, of course).
Another one: Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas, by Tom Robbins. It doesn't really do as many fancy party tricks with the second-person narration, but it's still there.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Regrettable But in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Saturday, July 16 2005 20:42 Profile Homepage #83
quote:
Originally written by Lady Davida:

This is exactly why TM and co. get away with things like the clitoris quote
I wouldn't exactly say he got away with it; you'll notice he's banned again.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
I win! in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Saturday, July 16 2005 20:23 Profile Homepage #9
That's a suspiciously precise guess.

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G3 game locking in Tech Support
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Saturday, July 16 2005 19:32 Profile Homepage #1
You could try updating the drivers for your video card.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
"Blades of Geneforge" in General
Thuryl
...b10010b...
Member # 869
 written Saturday, July 16 2005 19:31 Profile Homepage #25
The obvious way to do second-person perspective is having the camera pointed directly at the player character's face at all times. It won't work very well in terms of gameplay, but that's beside the point.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00

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