House Unshaperlike Activities Committee
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, December 13 2006 21:43
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Is anyone here a Trakovite? Does anyone actually agree with their ideas? Would the world of Geneforge really be better without shaping? Come on, how could all the benefits of such a glorious technology be denied? It gives us food, servants, and protection. It makes life easier for all, giving humanity time to take on more scholarly pursuits. Only under a banner of peace and order can civilization prosper. Without shaping, where would the world be? First of all, order would collapse due to the lack of a powerful ruling force. Without Shapers in control, just anyone can come to power. They wouldn’t have to be strong or intelligent, it would be total chaos. Inhospitable areas would be uninhabitable due to lack of shaper made plants. We’d have to build inefficient doors, use crude weapons like bows and arrows, and pick locks with strange tools that don’t do the work for you. Even worse, humans would be doing the jobs serviles do now, imagine, humans scrubbing floors and sweeping! Worst of all, we would have to send our own sons and daughters to die in battles when creations could have gone in their places. Is that a world you would prefer? Are we barbarians? Next thing you know they'll want to ban magic. Madness. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Wednesday, December 13 2006 21:57
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Trakovites view existing technology that can breed itself as acceptable. So living tools, batons, spores, and pods are fine. All creations that can replicate themselves are also within doctrine. They draw the line at shaping people and serviles either by Geneforge and/or canisters and the out of control creations of new and more powerful creations. They want to continue only with magic and what is currently in place. Shapers view shaped creations and people as rogue creations that must submit to their control or be destroyed. Rebels think everyone should be free with no real limits. ET thinks as long as he is in control whatever force he rules is right. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, December 13 2006 22:08
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Those glorious technologies wouldn't exist were it not for shaping. Why would anyone want to prevent any future advancements that would make life easier for people? I wonder if the Trakovites consider healing spells as a form of shaping as well. Either way, that still leaves the questions of order and/or forcing humans to fight in battle. Sure, people complain that the rebellion is ravaging their cities, but at least the Shapers aren't conscripting them into their army to help fight them off. quote:So does everyone else. That is, unless you steer the force you control in the opposite direction of what you think is right. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5268
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 00:41
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I thought the Trakovite ending was actually the most satisfying. (Although I have yet to experience the loyal Shaper endings.) Frankly, you can think of Shaping like nuclear weapons, or biological weapons, or any of the other things that are generally considered to be too heinous to use in the real world. But, it's a game, and I steal things and kill people for the hell of it and treat loyal followers like so much cannon fodder. Morality is, perhaps, completely underrated in these sorts of games. Although Ultima IV wasn't too bad on that front... Posts: 148 | Registered: Tuesday, December 7 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 05:44
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Basically, the Geneforge series has had two major ethical continuums: 1) Creation Rights vs. Shaper Authority 2) Power vs. Moderation #1 has been there all along in the form of the sects, and was the main focus of the first three games. In G1, we did have #2 with the Trajkov question, and the dilemma of what to do with the Geneforge. In G2, there was the contrast between the megalomanaical Barzites and Drakons, and the only slightly power-crazy Zakary and Awakened, though the only truly moderational presence was Aodare's kill-them-all ending. In G3, #2 was discarded almost entirely in favor of #1, which I think is one of the reasons the game seemed to flat and ethically frustrating. In all three games, however, the sects sort of subsumed #2 into the #1 question. With the sole exception of the Barzites, there was a single continuum, with the loyal sects exercising restraint in power-grabbing, the Awakened exercising less restraint, and the Takers and Rebels exercising none whatsoever. In G4, the creation of the Trakovites splits the question wide open, and for the first time since G1 we really do have two ethical continuums. I have to imagine that I am not the only one who was dissatisfied with G3 in this regard, and relieved and refreshed to see the Trakovites surface. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3357
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 07:54
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Even if shaping was banned, what would be there to stop those who had wielded magic from controlling those who didn't? What is there to stop mages from abusing mental magic (such as dominate) spells to turn anyone into essentially a servile? I suppose it's just a question of how big the gap between the powers of normal people and those with magic/shaping/something else is. Posts: 76 | Registered: Saturday, August 16 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 09:11
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quote:It's narrow-minded people like you who give shaping a bad name. You do realize that shaping can be used for things other than killing, don't you? Do you think that ornks are a danger to the world? No, they are delicious and nutritious. I shudder to think of what people would eat if it were not for them. Slarty, I kind of agree with you. However, I think Jeff started ditching the whole power vs. moderation angle on pupose to show the desperate measures taken in times of total war. With all that power floating around, the Trakovite ideology seems very, very unrealistic, and only a walking deus ex machina like the PC would even be able to think about being able to follow it and accomplish something in its name. Orange bring up an important point. Once shaping is banned, it will only be a matter of time before they attack magic as a whole. Next thing you know, another domino will fall and they will try to murder anything at all infused with essence. Healing craft counts as shaping, yes? Trakovites are against healing magic? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 3442
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 09:18
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quote:Well, based on this: quote:I think Cheerios would suffice. And isn't Healing magic a priest-thing? It doesn't NEED essence to do it. Edit: If you don't get the Cheerio's reference, you live on the wrong side of the Pond. [ Thursday, December 14, 2006 09:20: Message edited by: Nikki x ] -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3357
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 09:19
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quote:Oozebeasts aren't exactly danger-free, and they're just ornks really :P Posts: 76 | Registered: Saturday, August 16 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 09:23
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I actually agree with Tullegolar on this one. Banning shaping does not solve the problem. Look at Drayks. They're a banned (barred, to be technical) creation, and now look at the trouble resulting from it. The shapers might have had an even larger advantage if the Drayks had joined them instead, or even were just indifferent. Instead, since the shapers were so arrogant, thinking that barring Drayks would make the problem go away, they now have a new menace to deal with: Drakons. No matter how deeply the knowledge of shaping is buried, it will surface again. Sucia Isle pretty much proves that once you cross that threshold, there's no turning back. The ending of Geneforge 1 summed it up quite nicely: You cannot unring a bell. EDIT: quote:Um... Have you played any of the Geneforge games? All healing spells require at least a small amount of essence. In fact, there's only one spell I can think of that uses no essence, and that's Firebolt. [ Thursday, December 14, 2006 09:27: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 13:11
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Actually, in G4 there is no essence used when casting icebolt (yay). I think that healing would be considered shaping since you are "shaping" the person back to health. I don't think that banning shaping would be a good idea because of the horrible reprocussions. Though I think the Shapers do seem harsh and sometimes unprogressive, their regulations are the lesser of the evils. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 14:36
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Originally by Retlaw May: quote:Plus, Healing Craft is listed under Shaping Skills on your character's statistics screen. :P However, that seems like something already developed that the Trakovites would allow, along with pods, batons, etc. Originally by Nioca: quote:That's one of Dikiyoba's favorite lines from the series. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 15:16
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You may not be able to unring a bell, but its better to try than to let something as horrendous as shaping stay active. If you do it slowly and stop the teaching of shaping then eventually it will be a long forgotten thing. Spells will never be a horrible thing, because many people know different spells, and if someone tried to create a second tyranny than it woulld not be hard to stop them. You cannot completely unring a bell, but you can muffe it enough that nobody would even try using it again. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 15:23
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quote:You're aware that it was a Tom Waits song before it was in any of Jeff's games, right? -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 16:35
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Kyrek, I agree that shaping has caused some horrible atrocities, and that creations are treated unfairly. However, trying to undo centuries of work and knowledge would be nearly impossible. Even if it seemed successful at first, there would be some shred of research hidden away somewhere, be it a shaping book or a canister or even a Geneforge, and then a whole new, far worse process would begin. Instead of having a powerful weapon in the hands of a bunch of egotistical self-righteous idiots, you have a powerful weapon in the hands of what could be a raving lunatic. And when that happens, nobody would be able to stand in his or her way, because no one else would have the means to fight back! Think about it. Would the shapers be winning the war if they couldn't shape? Of course not! Shaping is a very dangerous art, even more powerful than standard magic, and should be treated accordingly, but it shouldn't be shunned for just it's negative aspects. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 16:55
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Nioca is right, something would be left over. Look at the teachings of Sucia Island except having thousands upon thousands of those type of nooks and cranies. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 17:04
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Spells. Spells can be deadly when you have enough skill. I'm sure many of you have played a game where you didn't create a single creation. You will no matter what have to kill a shaper or something stronger eventually. And its not like all those elite warriors you see are completely inept at fighting. With each shaping book found there is one less in the world soon. It will take a long time, but eventually you will stop it. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 17:35
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But what will you replace shaping with? Magic? There seems to be a lot of spells available to kill or dominate others, and that's with shaping already available. Technology? Read the newspaper and see what horrendous acts technology has allowed in our world. The point I'm trying to make is that anything can and will be used for atrocities, because some people (and intelligent creations, in this case) are atrocious. But everything, including shaping, can be used for good too. We see a lot of the horrendous side of shaping because it is a war. We don't see a lot of Shapers quietly modifying plants and animals to live in otherwise inhospitable areas, but they do that sort of stuff too. Originally by Thuryl: quote:Well, Dikiyoba does now. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 18:10
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quote:Except that someone with shaping skills has both power and numbers. Except for god-like characters, anyone will eventually get over-run if they get swarmed with creations. Also, you're assuming that everyone will just hand over every piece of shaping history they find. The likelihood of that happening is the same as Venezuela launching a Vlish to Valorim. It's not going to happen. [ Thursday, December 14, 2006 18:17: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 18:29
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I just think that Shaping is one of the most important parts of Geneforge, and although it is possible to get by the game without a single companion, it is very difficult, especially on torment. Only agent type PCs with excessive spellcasting can really get by no shaping. My agent (GF 3) had no companions, so I had to kill everything on Harmony and Greenwood Isles early in the game to maximize experience. A skilled player using a 0 creation spellcaster can probably get by with significant abuse of the combat system. PS. I haven't played GF 4 yet, so please excuse my ignorance. Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 18:50
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quote:Try attacking one as a beginning character and see what type of damage they can do. Anything can be abused if you really work at it. It's just shaping has gotten out of control and created a large population of mentally unstable people who are abusing their power. Monarch is given as a extreme example who besides his creations was gearing up for germ warfare. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 19:05
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quote:But ornks drop ornkskin gauntlets! :D Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 19:31
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quote:Hmm, if only more people had shaping powers, fighting ornks wouldn't even be nessesary. You could just ask them to roll over and die. Was anyone else extremely pleased at the new variety of smart/loyal serviles that were created? Definitely the best thing to come out of the war so far. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 20:26
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ET since you have used or will use the Geneforge you are now classed by the Shapers as a creation and must obey all Shapers. Otherwise you are a rogue creation to be destroyed on sight. From Creation Rights Shaper Grim states,"_Of course. You are a creation. In my eyes, you are to be commanded, not aided, or parleyed with. Only your special utility to our cause gives you a measure of independence._"; Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 20:42
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quote:*nod nod* Yes, I agree completely. But there *are* always people spouting these ridiculous ideologies, and they are important. I am glad that the Trakovites were portrayed as a tiny, heavily persecuted number of individuals, and not as a full-blown sect with any power or adherents whatsoever. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |