House Unshaperlike Activities Committee
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 10:07
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Shaping does not require magic. It requires escence. Otherwise, when you are shaping, your spell energy would drop too. Magic and Shaping both stem from escence, but are not the same thing. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3357
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 10:37
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Didn't they start off shaping by blasting magic at people, though, on Sucia island? Surely essence is more the life force of the creation, whereas it's actually turned into what it is through magic. Posts: 76 | Registered: Saturday, August 16 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 10:50
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Trakovites are against shaping, the creation, changing and controling of life. Casting kill isn't exactly creating life, is it? It's not controling either. Also, it isn't shaping something. It's destroying it. Ya, they did start out with magic. But they also started with Shaping. They created all kinds of diseases and deformed there enemies. But that is changing life. That is shaping, which is what should be destroyed. [ Sunday, December 17, 2006 10:52: Message edited by: Kyrek ] Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3357
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 11:08
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Well, one of the real problems with shaping is the ability to actually create life. It's just as bad as the necromancy which is outlawed by the shapers. If "shaping" can occur by accident due to magic, doesn't that make it an extension of magic? Posts: 76 | Registered: Saturday, August 16 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 12:09
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Rampaging around, trying to hurt your enemy in any with ecsence isn't exactly by accident...... They didn't care what they did as long as they hurt the enemy. [ Sunday, December 17, 2006 12:10: Message edited by: Kyrek ] Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 12:25
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quote:There are plenty of spell that are controlling. Plenty of spells designed to cloud the minds of enemies, a whole catagory, in fact. Blessing spells use essence to alter people for short amounts of time, whether or not that counts as shaping is in the eye of the beholder. Then these are the battle spells. Why would the Trakovites oppose the destructive qualities of shaping (which are already outweighed by it's beneficial ones) and not oppose the highly destructive powers of magic? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5302
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 16:10
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quote:From what I can tell, magic isn't nearly the be-all and end-all that shaping is, nor as powerful as it is in other universes like that of Avernum. While magic is certainly very effective, there don't seem to be any "summon huge drakons" or "start a big freakin' plague" spells. Really, the abolition of magic would be a little like banning all firearms, except that guns can't heal you or make you stronger. Posts: 70 | Registered: Sunday, December 19 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 16:18
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Trakovites join in a long tradition of irrational hatred. They can justify the abolition of shaping with all kinds of excuses, but when it comes down to it they just don't like it and want it gone. —Alorael, who thinks he might agree if the choices were Shapers and crazed rebels who seem happy to put the world at risk in order to topple them. The problem isn't shaping so much as monolithic organizations with all the power. You know, Jeff's games seem to have a bit of a libertarian bent... Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 18:25
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quote:Shaping and magic are tools, just like a sword or baton. They are not inherently good nor evil. It all depends on the person using them. If no one used them, then they would have no power over others. However, there will always be that one person who uses them, and generally not for good. Think of it this way. If you insure your house from fire, does that mean you shouldn't have a fire extinguisher? -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 21:39
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I'm trying to imagine the kinds of people that would want to join the Trakovites. The first fool that you meet, Drewry, is not even a Shaper. He is most likely jealous of their powers, and, understadably, afraid of it. He lives safe and secure in Dillame, taking for granted the fact that the city's guardians are creations. Since he is not dealing with the war on a day to day basis, it is easy for him to take an extreme radical stand and say that shaping is evil. He is also blind to the good it can do because he is not a Shaper. He just sits in his home moping about acting like he knows something. Typical bleeding heart liberal. "Oh, all the world's problems are caused by shaping so it must be evil and the only way to save the world is to destroy all shaping!" Shut up, moron, or you can go live out in the woods without Shaper protection, and starve when there are no new plants to grow in what’s left of the world’s wasteland. Then there is Khyryk, the tragic hero. The Shapers exiled him, so it is understandable that he has no loyalty to them. But he also sees the evils behind the rebel plot, so he would never join them either. He is left without a third option, until his falls prey to the Trakovites. They fill his head with nonsense, and since there are no other sects around, he joins them. This is also how the Nazis managed to come to power in Germany. People had to choose between the failing government or the communists. Then Hitler came along with his third option, and people joined, despite how extreme it was. So you see, the Trakovites are really just Nazis. You should be ashamed if you agree with them. [ Sunday, December 17, 2006 21:44: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3040
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 21:58
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quote:I take offense to that. I sided with the Trakovites because I thought the other two options were too extreme. Why am I suddenly the bad guy? I see absolutely no parallel between the Nazis and the Trakovites. The Trakovites want everyone to be equal! Explain yourself. -------------------- 5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0... Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 22:13
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You joined the Trakovites because the others were too extreme? Don't you see you've been blinded by Trakovite propaganda? It's not your fault, so don't take offense. They tricked you into thinking that they had a solution for the world's problems. All they really do is point fingers and blame others, not really thinking of the consequences of their actions. They are like the Nazis in every way except for the fact that they haven't starting killing off innocent people... yet. Surely if they had more power, they would murder all Shapers without hesitation. Then it would only be a matter of time before the mages followed, then creations, then who knows. I guess the only other thing the Trakovites are missing is a charismatic evil leader. But hey, if you got your way and the Trakovite ending became canon, then the PC would be a prime candidate for the job! -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3040
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 22:29
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Now really. Killing off innocent people? Murdering all Shapers without hesitation? And calling my PC a charismatic evil leader, despite the fact that I invested barely any points in leadership? Let us not assassinate this PC further, Emperor. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency? -------------------- 5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0... Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, December 17 2006 22:54
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They would most definitely kill all Shapers. After all, Shapers will never willingly give up their powers, plus there must be some sort of desire for vengeance at the persecution of the Trakovites in the first place. I think the Shapers would be afforded no mercy if somehow the Trakovites found the themselves in power. Such bloodlust is contagious, and soon people would call for the heads of all those responsible for the war, be it directly or indirectly. Shapers, mages, creations, even human soldiers would probably feel the wrath of the aftermath of a Trakovite takeover. The Nazis aren't the only example of this happening in history. Take the French Revolution. They murdered anyone who was a noble or who was suspected of being against the new government. In this respect, the PC would be more likely to be betrayed by the Trakovites in the end, as they would see him as a threat. After all, he is a shaper, shaped, and a former rebel who has been contacted by the Shapers on numerous occasions. For extremists, that's more than enough reason for him to die with the others. The only question remaining is: would Trakovites use a guillotine or would they mass poison their victims? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Monday, December 18 2006 02:24
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quote:Mass poison or a knife to the back. Would you leave alive for even a second an enemy who could summon an army, cast spells, or is good with weapons. Any hesitation and the Shapers or geneforge altered Rebels would be able to fight their way to freedom. I think that you are taking an extremist propaganda view of the Trakovites. They are for a gradual disarmament of shaping. You left off the Rebel found dead in Eastern Barrier Zone after leaving Litalia and Shorgass the cryodrayk. Shorgass had seen first hand what the drakons were planning and how shaping oneself was leading to destruction. You have two from the Rebel side that are questioning whether the ends justify the means. The Rebel human force was being controlled by fanatics like Greta who didn't care about the cost as long as the Shapers were destroyed. Their older views about protecting creations had already fallen far behind them. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Monday, December 18 2006 03:42
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You are calling Trakovites extreme? Look at the shapers, they keep all the power with themselves and kill anyone who says so much as a word against them. They aren't humane at all. As a death sentence they leave their prisoners to rot in a cage with no food or water. And the Rebels? They plan to bring mass destruction to the world, just to finally destroy te shapers. Those people are extremists. Also, with shaping, you can create monsters like the unbound and set them free to kill things. With magic you can't do nearly as much harm. Also, MM doesn't crush the will of the creature, does it? Shaping does. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, December 18 2006 06:24
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It's worth pointing out that, despite the absolute hostility of both Shapers and Rebels toward Trakovites, leaders of both sides regretfully acknowledge and sometimes even express Trakovite views over the course of the game. Greta: "It can be victory over the Shapers. At a horrible, horrible cost." ... She is silent, the grim debate raging inside her. Greta: "Are you mad? Of course it bothers me! My sleep is nothing but a constant cesspit of nightmares imagining it." "Then why allow it to exist at all?" Crowley: General Crowley is silent. You aren't sure whether he thinks your question is too foolish to notice or he truly doesn't have a good answer. Litalia: "Our bodies were not meant to be changed so. Not meant to be filled with so much power, without wisdom." Litalia: "The Trakovites may be right. They may be wise, and virtuous, and ahead of their time. But history teaches us that those blessed with that sort of madness tend to end up dead. Proven right, but dead." -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, December 18 2006 09:02
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Slarty's hit on something there. It's worth separating the ideals and the methods of the groups. The Trakovites do have a point. People who are altered by canisters and shaping go aggressively crazy. On the other hand, shaping itself has produced valuable things like living tools, ornks, and other real progress. The Trakovites draw no distinction between good and bad shaping, or between good and bad shapers. —Alorael, who thinks an ideal solution would be Rebel-esqeu humane treatment of creations combined with Shaper training instead of canisters. The Shapers should not abuse their power as they apparently do, but they do need that power to remain an effective governing force and, equally importantly, to be able to stop the lunatic shapers who crop up perenially. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, December 18 2006 09:24
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Ellhrah's dead. :P -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, December 18 2006 09:29
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Trakovite ideas are not as noble as they seem. All propaganda and betrayal aside, shaping is still more beneficial than it is destructive. The Shapers have already proved that under a firm and guiding hand, Shaping will cause hardly any destruction at all. For the small price of domination of national affairs, Shapers give much more to the people than they take. They give the people food in the form of ornks and plants, servants and laborers in the form of serviles, they make it possible to live in areas formerly uninhabitable. They protect their people not with troops conscripted from among them, but with creations, willing to die so the people don't have to. They even give the people tools and doors. What is noble about wanting to take this all away? The Trakovites would grind progress to a halt. Don't even get me started on creation rights. That's the whole reason this war started. If only stupid creations would have stayed in their place, there would be no war, no reason for the Trakovites to hate shaping in the first place. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, December 18 2006 09:35
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That's what I said. The Trakovites have good points, but they mix them with baseless ideology. Ornks are great things. Abusing serviles is less good. Assaulting townsfolk with rotghroths because it's hilarious is terrible. The Shapers serve a purpose and serve it well. Unfortunately, they don't give some creations the rights and respect they deserve. (I know you don't think they deserve any rights, but that's because you deserve to be assaulted by rotghroths.) The rebels and Trakovites take the failiings of the Shapers to mean that the Shapers are entirely evil and that shaping is entirely evil, respectively. Neither one is true. —Alorael, who does think that the rebellion has gone a long way towards making the Shapers act evil. The rebellion's finest aren't all hugs and chocolate either, though. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Monday, December 18 2006 12:46
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I thought that the Trakos kept anything that cold reproduce alive? Also, Shaping has created: Shaper Monarch Canisters 3 Geneforges Drakons Drayks Tyranny Mad Rebels Gazers Wars Genocide I'm pretty sure that living tools aren't going to make up for that. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Monday, December 18 2006 13:17
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quote:First off, I was under the impression that, until recently, the shapers had been very successful in keeping the peace. Wars suggests there's been more than one in the past 20 or so years. Secondly, the above items I quoted would likely have happened whether shaping existed or not. It just would have happened under different circumstances. I don't know if they would be better or worse, or when and how they happened, but they most certainly would happen. [ Monday, December 18, 2006 13:19: Message edited by: Nioca ] -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Monday, December 18 2006 13:29
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This revives the debate we had a while back about just how effective the Shaper leadership has been in living up to its claims. I am happy to note that G4 provides some explicit narratorial confirmation of my own hypothesis, that the Shaper Council is a pack of incompetents lurching confidently through the minefields of history. Or at best that they have a Kyshakk by the tail, and they pretend that everything's under control because that pretence is part of not letting go. They may not have had too many recent wars, but gruesome catastrophes seem to be routine. Even Monarch seems to be a bad case, but far from unprecedented. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Monday, December 18 2006 13:31
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Originally by Kyrek: quote:They do too. A handful of them allow you to easily loot all the goods and money in a town. What? It's not like Dikiyoba is assaulting the townspeople with rotghroths. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |