House Unshaperlike Activities Committee
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 11:35
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People who generate wars are bad, yes. The drayk genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping. Also, the drakons wouldn't exsist, to wage a war, without shaping. A rock or stick won't give you world domination. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2759
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 14:45
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Actually, a very big rock would give you world domination (kinetic impact). Not sure whether you'd want what was left, though. Edit: silly ubb tags... [ Wednesday, December 20, 2006 14:46: Message edited by: Micawber. ] -------------------- "I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4 Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 15:40
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quote:Genocide is an extreme form of discrimination. And discrimination will exist wherever there are differences between humans, or other sentient species. Oh, and exist is spelled with one S. quote:You're right. Technology has gone way too far for a rock* or a stick^ to dominate. Fact is, it's the people supporting the dominators that are granting them domination. If every person in the Shaper empire rose up at once, the Shapers would be gone within the month. But the thing is, only a small group of people are rising up. So the Shapers must be doing something right. -------------------- * Except for the rock Micawber mentioned. ^ This excludes divinely summoned sticks. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 15:52
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Sorry about the spelling. I didn't realise I'd put the 2nd 'S' in. The drayks were a cause of shaping. Then the Shapers discriminated against them and tried to exterminate them. This wouldn't have happened without shaping. Each Shaper is like an army. Most of the people are not soldiers and would be crushed by the Shapers. The soldiers there are would be easily defaeted by the Shapers. Only the strongest soldiers would staaand any chance at all, but they wouldn't get close to defeating the Shapers. Have you met a soldier that can defeat a wingbolt before? Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 15:59
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quote:If drayks had existed without having been shaped into existence, I think it still would have happened. After all, the Empire from Avernum tried to genocide dragons, yes? And that world has no shaping to blame for their problems, who will you scapegoat there, government? "Oh, man, if only there were no govrnment, there would be no dragon genocide..." If anything, shaping the drayks into existence in the first place almost makes the attempted genocide worth it. Is not the creation of life ten times more valuable than it's destruction? Anyone can genocide, shaping or no. But shaping gives an ability that no other world has, the ability to create life! That is huge! How can you deny its value? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 16:01
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quote:This was more of a safety decision by the Shapers. While ordering them all to be killed was over the line, stopping the Shaping of them was not. Don't forget, the Shapers want to appear flawless to outsiders. quote:No. But then again, I've never met a Wingbolt either. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Wednesday, December 20 2006 16:05
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Hmmm........ That takes away a lot of my arguements. ET - There would have been war then, and the Shapers would have won and tried to force them off their continents. It would be genocide, it would be war. [ Wednesday, December 20, 2006 16:06: Message edited by: Kyrek ] Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, December 21 2006 12:11
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quote:It would happen, shaping or not. Magic is a far more powerful tool than you give it credit for, which brings me to my second point: quote:No. But powerful mages are scattered throughout the Shaper empire, and they are probably fully capable of taking an army of creations. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Thursday, December 21 2006 12:17
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Shapers don't let mages have that kind of power. Magic doesn't give you an army. Shapers can make an army and can probably keep you from making it go rogue. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, December 21 2006 12:29
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That was quick. quote:Not true. Shapers allow mages to study almost all forms of magic, Shaping excluded. Also, don't forget, that while a Shaper has the power make an army, a mage has the power to turn said army on it's master. Also, most Shapers can't prevent a creation from going rogue, unless they are solidly built. And in a combat situation, Shapers generally have to make them on the fly. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Thursday, December 21 2006 13:30
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Shapers use their will to control creations. They have trained their mind to be incredibly powerful. Have you seen a mage that knows Kill? I can't remember seeing one. I also seem to remember that in Dhonal's Keep, the magic school's most dangerous spell was Ecsence Orbs. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, December 21 2006 13:49
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quote:True, but even the best Shaper can lose control of his/her creations, especially if he/she is pushed to the limit of his/her ability. quote:Both of us probably have. I can remember one instance of a mage using Kill. Also, have you used the Kill spell against everything you meet? Just because you know a spell doesn't mean you'll use it. quote:That may have more to do with the fact that you are an apprentice Shaper. Skilled, and with plenty of field experience, but an apprentice nonetheless. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, December 21 2006 15:13
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As Delicious Vlish has pointed out from game playing, it's better to let you powerful opponent shape a creation and then charm it. Charm, dominate, and madness gems let you convert a creation army over to your side without having to waste essence making them. While it won't last, all you need is long enough to destroy the shaper. Magic when used correctly can negate a creation army. Just daze and strong daze will leave most just standing there. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Thursday, December 21 2006 15:16
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They always use Escence Orbs. They don't use any other spell. Have you ever seen a mage that knows Mass Madness or even Charm? Those are the only spells that would even test the minds of Shapers. Later on in the games have you seen a mage that trains high level spells? Randomizer - You also have the training to strengthen your mind. That is why you are a match for the Shapers and can Charm their creations. [ Thursday, December 21, 2006 15:19: Message edited by: Kyrek ] Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, December 21 2006 18:44
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Actually a couple of rounds of essence orbs will take out most creations. Higher level spells will do the job faster, but if you know what you are doing a mage can destroy a creation army. Just because you haven't seen a mage teaching or using spells doesn't mean they aren't out there. The ones you deal with are usually shaper controlled and restricted in what they are allowed to teach without specific permission. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, December 21 2006 20:35
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A couple rounds of Essence Orbs will barely take out a single Fyora unless you also have at least a moderate amount of training in some form of magery, be it battle magic or general spellcraft. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Friday, December 22 2006 03:29
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The mage is usually dead by the second round. Shapers don't give that power to anyone but themselves. The enemy would have to be a canister user. [ Friday, December 22, 2006 03:46: Message edited by: Kyrek ] Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7789
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written Saturday, December 23 2006 05:10
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quote:I got a character killed playing as a rebel and interrupting some Shapers who were trying to play sabotage-the-lizards. My guy got killed because somebody on the other team knew "Kill." The sound effect and light show were really impressive for a half second before I started cursing about getting a dead character. [ Saturday, December 23, 2006 05:11: Message edited by: Vision Thing ] Posts: 4 | Registered: Saturday, December 16 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Saturday, December 23 2006 05:18
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That would be a Wingbolt. That's a creation. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, December 23 2006 17:53
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quote:By the time you get essence orbs you do have several levels of battle magic and hopefully a few of spellcraft. I wonder how far you could get as an infiltrator without using more than the first six spells in each magic group and no creations. I know the last chapter will be difficult without elemental cloak to reduce the damage and charm to gain allies, but the attack spells should do. If you save madness and torrent gems for key fights you should get through most areas with some care. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Canned
Member # 7704
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written Sunday, December 24 2006 02:34
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Use dbugkill, since i use it every day to zap of me enemies. O spidy #335 the shapers started on a genocide to build their empire. And as far as i am concerned there is something that mankind forgot that is preventing it to live with sticks and bones: they cut of every way to go back to prehistory and man at his dawn was much more fitter and intelligent than now because of push of survival, the extremes of life. And that is why we are cosy and warm. Not like or ancestors that where cold and uncomfortable. OOPS an other mass extinction!!! (god use dbugkill in the late permian period) [ Sunday, December 24, 2006 02:48: Message edited by: opon mars ] -------------------- You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how . Posts: 312 | Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Sunday, December 24 2006 09:46
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Opon Mars, Nalyd has lost patience with you. Stop your failed attempts at poetry, and use English that can be understood. Stop your borderline noobish comments, and stop saying that cheats are a feasible strategy. We can barely understand what the you're saying, and Nalyd doubts that it would make sense at any rate. Now, on topic. The loss of Mass Madness wouldn't be too bad, so long as Strong Daze was still available. Nalyd could not have survived several essential fights without Elemental Cloak. But the real loss would have been the healing spells. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, December 24 2006 15:30
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Just a minute, Nalyd. I can't help but think that opon mars is saying something profound here in all that mess. But you're right, of course, whatever it is I sense is lost to us forever. On cheating: I love cheating, it makes the game more fun for me. But I never use dbugkill. Where's the sport in that? On shaping vs magic: Shaping is more destructive than magic, I'll admit to that. But I would also say that shaping is exponentially more beneficial than magic. Magic is really only good for destruction, which, while I approve of it, it seems to be the only argument Trakovites have against shaping. I hate that the Trakovites can say shaping is bad when, though it can be destructive, much more good can come of it; then they say nothing at all about magic, which much destruction comes from and almost no good whatsoever. This philosophy has no logical grounds. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Sunday, December 24 2006 18:19
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quote:That's a pretty brave thing of you to say, Nalyd. quote:It's not poetry. He/she is manually word-wrapping his/her lines. Why? I don't know. quote:Another brave thing for you to say. quote:They are, though. One that I personally detest, but it is a viable strategy. [quote]We can barely understand what the you're saying, and Nalyd doubts that it would make sense at any rate.[/quote]Hmm. Let's see if I can clean it up a bit. quote:That's better, and also a bit more understandable. What it has to do with the topic is that... I'll have to get back with you on that one. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3818
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written Sunday, December 24 2006 21:35
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quote:Slight correction, as I feel you are referring to the extermination of the drayks. Genocide is the same species killing, massacring, annihilating, etc., all or a part of itself, e.g., Rwanda, Darfur, and the Serbian-Croatian conflict come to mind. We are seeing signs of that in Geneforge 4. The drakons seemed to have forgotten their "humble" roots as drayks and are attempted to prune that evolutionary weakness from their blood. Nioca: "Genocide is an extreme form of discrimination." You got that right. And then some. Magic is a powerful tool. But to have access to the most powerful spells, one had to be altered to use them. Return to Geneforge 2. To access the upper tier spells, one had to be Shaped. The most powerful spells in each Magic group required the user to undergo this process, something still forbidden by the Shapers. The only sect that did not offer this sample of power was the Loyalists. Despite their failures, the Loyalists were still true to the Shaper principles. ET stated: "On shaping vs. magic: Shaping is more destructive than magic, I'll admit to that." A simple fact. To reiterate again, using the spells of mass destruction and havok require one to be Shaped. And still does to a degree. What flavor of Kill do you want you canister to be, flourescent green or evervescent mint? Seriously, look at the previous two Geneforge games. Though it has changed slowly since Geneforge 2 (Khyryk offering to train one in "forbidden" spells and Shaping), you still need that canister to get your kicks. Once again, return to Geneforge 2. Barzahl was the individual who had the vision, the insight, to create the most powerful creatures: the rhotgroth and the drakon. Although the gazer was created by the Takers, the design originated from Barzahl. I believe the quote was, "Barzahl had the mind, but the Takers had the power." I doubt that Barzahl lacked the power. Perhaps his concerned was related to control. This example supports what Emperor Tullegolar stated before: "Shaping is more destructive than magic." Mages using the more powerful spells are the ones who would dabble in Necromancy, summoning and binding of demons and the like, the ones who need to be under the watchful eye of the Shapers. Nice discussion. Keep it up. And Merry Christmas to all! Posts: 10 | Registered: Monday, December 22 2003 08:00 |