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First off, I was under the impression that, until recently, the shapers had been very successful in keeping the peace. Wars suggests there's been more than one in the past 20 or so years.

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Secondly, the above items I quoted would likely have happened whether shaping existed or not. It just would have happened under different circumstances. I don't know if they would be better or worse, or when and how they happened, but they most certainly would happen.

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Originally by Kyrek:

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Genocide wouldn't have happened without shaping because then there wouldn't be drayks.
What's wrong with drayks? They aren't inherently bad, either. On Sucia Island, Akkat, Rhakkus, and Syros were independent and intelligent but they also showed respect for your character (and also towards a few other figures) and loyalty to the Shaper who created them.

It was the treatment of the drayks by the Shapers that turned them against the Shapers and forced them to create drakons. If the Shapers could have banned the creation of new drayks but left the remaining ones alive as a new race and with a place in Shaper society (probably in some sort of history- and research-keeping role, since they live for a very long time), then the rebellion wouldn't have been successful.

Dikiyoba.

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Shaper Monarch - I get the impression that such madmen are few and far between.
Canisters - This is a good thing! The next step in evolution.
3 Geneforges - See above, only times a thousand. If everyone were so blessed by the geneforge, they would no longer fight against each other (see other thread) and it would mean the end of war.
Drakons - This is why the shapers are justified in destroying these things. They want rights, but if all they can do is express themselves through violence I would rather die then see them allowed to live.
Drayks - See above.
Tyranny - There will always be tyranny, shaping or no.
Mad Rebels - This is a result of not enough shaping, not too much. If only the Shapers would build their own geneforge and canisters, the rebelion would stand no chance.
Gazers - Another mistake, but also one easily remedied with more shaping (of the destructive kind).
Wars - Yeah... and a world without shaping would mean a world without war?
Genocide - I think the shapers were content to allow some drayks to live out their lives on Sucia, it's only now that they have become a threat again that they deserve to die.

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It seems the biggest cause of problems is not shaping itself, but the contageous notion of creation rights. One that seed of hope gets out there, it is difficult to crush. But I am confident that it could happen if only the shapers would stop restraining themselves. The world needs more shaping, not less!

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—Alorael, who would like to point out that Avernum's Empire managed to maintain absolute power over an entire world for centuries at least without shaping. Being able to make an army instead of conscripting one is nice, but it's not essential. Shouldn't the citizens be happy they don't have to fight and die themselves?

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Originally written by Elegance:
Qwghlmian or Lojban?:
—Alorael, who has a new way to phrase the debate. Suppose shaping were replaced with guns. It's still a unique power, but would you argue that guns are inherently evil? How about iron armor? Or aircraft? Escalation of the tools of war is part of how the world works, even Geneforge's world, and at least shaping provides benefits as well.

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—Alorael, who thinks he is repeating himself. He thinks he may, in fact, be saying the same thing more than once. It's a bit redundant, isn't it?

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Think about it, is there any other species on the planet that launches full-scale wars against each other? Or commits to crusades of annihilating a particular type of their own species?

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