House Unshaperlike Activities Committee
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| Author | Topic: House Unshaperlike Activities Committee |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 21:08
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Randomizer: That's why I'm not a Shaper. I wish there was a sect that supported shaping yourself without supporting creation rights. I miss Barzahl. I don't understand what Grimm's reasoning is for someone who shapes themselves owing obedience to the Shapers. He call them creations, but they are not. They were not created, so they do not owe anyone their life. Do they owe the creator of the geneforge itself? Maybe... If anything, someone who has shaped new abilities into themselves is a more pure shaper than one who has learned to use shaping as a tool. The only analogy I can think of right now is a Shaper being someone with a hammer hammering nails into a peice of wood, and someone who used the geneforge as someone who can drive the nails in with their bare hands. Who is superior? It is the Shapers who should be bowing to the shaped, not the other way around. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, December 14 2006 21:44
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Grim's view is that only creations are shaped. People are born pure and gain power by training. The artificial crutch of canisters and the geneforge only serve to lower people down to the level of creations and not to improve them. I don't agree with that view since some improvement can occur without the madness that comes from the geneforge and canister abuse. The Trakovites have some good points in that if hundreds of years of Shaper rule has regulated shaping to prevent it's abuses then there has to be a better way to stop it. Still the Trakovite ending is worse for the common people since it perpetuates the war. If either side had won than at least the land could return to a state of normalcy under one dictatorship or the other. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 3442
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written Friday, December 15 2006 06:59
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I think I should clear this up.. I HAVE played all the Geneforge games, with the exception of the newest addition. What I was getting at was the point that healing magic exists without Shaping. Shapers may use essence to heal others, but did the Sholai? And, what about healing magic in Avernum? What's to say that with the lack of any shaping, that kind of healing magic wouldn't be developed? -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, December 15 2006 08:16
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Um, essence exists without shaping. It's just something the shaping manipulates. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 3442
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written Friday, December 15 2006 08:25
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With all respect, you people aren't getting my point at all. Healing magic in the Geneforge world AS IS is a shaping skill. I know. But, if shaping was replaced, or never existed, which people mentioned elsewhere in the thread, my point is that there is a possibilty that some other school of magic would develop it's own ways of healing, like the priest spell in Avernum. Without shaping, or using essence. -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, December 15 2006 11:46
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You have to keep in mind that the Avernum world and the Geneforge world are different, and they follow totally different 'laws of magic' as well. Perhaps healing is a highly essence intensive skill that has little to do with magic at all, which would be why those who are strong in magic but weak at shaping are not so good at it. Either way, magical spells use essence as well, so it is difficult to draw the line between magic and shaping. This is just another of the many reasons why Trakovite philosophy is flawed madness. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Friday, December 15 2006 15:14
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Oh no! You mean I can't summon my alien beasts to rip apart the rebels? :P [ Friday, December 15, 2006 15:15: Message edited by: Retlaw May ] -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, December 15 2006 15:58
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The countering point that you apparently don't follow is that essence is not inherenty tied to shaping. Just like Avernum's magic is all based on energy, Geneforge's magic is based on energy and essence. Shaping happens to be based on essence too, but that doesn't mean healing and shaping are any more related than Searer and shaping. —Alorael, who thinks that case is quite clear. It's been made obvious that there are plentty of mages who aren't shapers and that regulations of magic are an entirely different category. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, December 15 2006 16:03
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No, healing and shaping are definitely more closely related than magic and shaping. They must be related on some fundamental level to be linked in that you can be strong in healing and shaping but not in magic, and vice versa. So, do the Trakovites only oppose the creation of new life, and that's it? Seems kind of stupid. The point of shaping is creation, while the point of magic is destruction. Why oppose the one and not the other? These people are backwards. In Trakovite Terrestia, shaping opposes you! -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, December 15 2006 16:35
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Magic spells != magic -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Friday, December 15 2006 17:18
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Also, I think it was mentioned somewhere in GF2 that the healing magic in the Geneforge world is really just a subsidiary of shaping itself. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Friday, December 15 2006 17:40
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Bandages. Herbs. There are lots of these in the world. If people tried they would figure out how to use them. Yes, healing is shaping, but there are many ways to heal that just aren't used. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, December 15 2006 19:23
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Maybe that's because shaping-healing is far superior. Why abandon powerful healing methods in favor of lesser ones? Come on, even the Anama philosophy is more solid than Trakovite dribble. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Friday, December 15 2006 19:47
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Actually, that brings up an interesting point. The Shapers are strictly forbidden from shaping themselves, yet their healing magic is basically a form of shaping. So when a shaper heals himself/herself, he/she is basically shaping himself/herself. Is something a little off with their rules, or is this a simple oversight by their council (aka, Jeff)? -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Friday, December 15 2006 20:00
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Well, an argument is that they may prohibit shaping themselves from their original form, but healing is just shaping to what you were... -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, December 15 2006 21:14
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It's very simple. Healing is not shaping. Presumably, proficiency in healing craft and shaping involves similar skills, which is why they are in the same category. But healing craft spells are spells, plain and simple; they behave exactly like every other spell, from casting to spellcraft strengthening and so on. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, December 15 2006 21:29
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Why try to deny the obvious link between healing and magic? Healing is a skill that Shapers excel in. Agents, masters of magic, suck at healing. But Tullegolar, Jeff probably just put healing under shaping skills to balance the classes. Great, and so our analysis must be built around this decision. Healing is a Shaper art, thus it must have some kind of connection to shaping that spells do not. Furthermore, firebolt is a spell that uses spell points but no essence, so it is possible for magic to exist without any form of essence or shaping whatsoever. But there are no healing spells that require no essence, thus another piece of evidence in support of this theory. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Friday, December 15 2006 22:06
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Actually, blessing spells may also have some innate connection to shaping as well. They all require essence, and several of them could technically considered temporary augmentations. And lets not forget the spell so aptly named Augmentation. If that isn't some form of self shaping, I don't know what is. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, December 15 2006 22:51
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I think I remember reading a description that said augmentation covers you in a shield of pure essence. That wouldn't really be altering your own body, but again, I don't know where Trakovites draw the line as far as essence manipulation goes. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Saturday, December 16 2006 04:22
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Escence is not shaping. Shaping may use escence, but escence is not shaping. [ Saturday, December 16, 2006 06:11: Message edited by: Kyrek ] Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, December 16 2006 05:50
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*facetentacle* -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7727
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written Saturday, December 16 2006 06:06
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Maybe it's a matter of definition -- and I'm not sure the game text itself is 100-percent consistent in this regard -- but I think there are some distinct categories that sometimes get blurred here. Essence: a kind of life-force, mana, "the Force." An all-pervasive but subtle and immaterial aether that exists at the root of ALL being (like the Hindu concept of Brahma), though it may not be perceived by the non-enlightened, and the ability to manipulate it is the special province of the initiated adept. Magic: the broad discipline of using the power of mind ("Intelligence") to channel and focus Essence in order to accomplish specific tasks. Grouped in general categories -- Healing, Blessing, Battle, Mental -- magic seems to be regarded in the Geneforge universe as morally neutral, capable of being used for good or ill. Shaping: a form of genetic engineering. It is closely analogous, but not identical, to the "hard science" version of GE that exists in our world (in which genes are physically manipulated in order to create novel life forms). This is shown by such things as shaping "tools" and "laboratories," and those quasi-scientific devices in GF2 that you could peer into and see tiny objects that sound a lot like chromosomes. Yet the version of GE that exists in the Geneforge universe seems more closely akin to magic (as defined above), in that it appears to involve a focusing or channeling of essence, not physical genes. Shaping could, in this view, be regarded as a kind of offshoot or discipline -- or heretical deviation, if you prefer -- of magic in general. Or it could be regarded as a kind of parallel tradition, like the different kinds of Yoga identified by Shiva in the Bhagavad Gita, each of which is valid and powerful, all of which draw upon the same universal essence or Brahma, but each of which also is quite distinct. On this basis, I think you could legitimately take a position that is opposed to Shaping, specifically, but not to magic in general. One might even argue that magic is too diffuse, manifold and ubiquitous to oppose -- that it is an innate power of consciousness, human and non-human. One may object to specific magical operations or "spells," such as Aura of Flames, yet not to others like Heal. (The Geneforge universe seems to recognize such distinctions, as in the high-level spells of GF2 that could not be learned unless the character is "changed.") But for all this, I think the game text is somewhat blurry. For instance the term "shaper" is used in earlier games to refer to ANY character, whether or not he or she has learned or utilized any shaping abilities. Elsewhere, however, there is a clear and consistent line drawn, i.e. "Teach me magic" as opposed to "Teach me shaping." I'm only halfway through GF4, but I'm feeling some Trakovite sympathies. And in that sense I agree with the sentiment of the topic title, because I do think this makes me suspiciously "unshaperlike." Posts: 4 | Registered: Saturday, December 2 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, December 16 2006 10:29
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There are two meanings of shaper. One is a shaper as one who uses shaping to make critters. The other meaning is the sect of Shapers, a group that includes non-shaper guardians and agents and soldiers and mages. I agree with your takes on magic and shaping, although I think they're probably parallel uses of essence and not really tied together. You can be a skilled shaper without knowing a thing about magic or vice versa. On the other hand, healing magic apparently comes under the heading of shaping and blurs those lines. —Alorael, who is sure that everyone draws a line between magic and shaping in Geneforge. The Shapers control the latter more stringently than the former. The Trakovites object to the latter more than the former. It may be less of a matter of what goes in than what comes out, though: shaping is whatever gives you cute (or hideous) creatures that obey your every command. Magic just tends to make things go boom. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, December 16 2006 11:02
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Can you be a skilled shaper without knowing anything about magic? I don't think we've seen any examples of this in the game. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, December 16 2006 12:45
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I think magic is more of a tool used to make shaping possible. If they didn't have magic, they would have to use whatever genetic engineers use today... or dilithium crystals... or something. Since they don't have those things, magic is the tool of choice for essence manipulation , thus some basic understanding of magic must be a prerequisite for any apprentice shaper. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |