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AuthorTopic: Wow (G4)
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #50
Geneforge 1: So, What Do You Think About the Serviles and the Shapers?

GF2: No, Really, How About the Serviles vs. the Shapers?

GF3: Serviles vs. Shapers: The Grudge Match

:P

[ Monday, June 26, 2006 18:04: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #51
If you can play as a servile perhaps the Shapers will accept help. But at alater point they will attempt to kill your character. You now all help is welcomed in war but when you're winning some people get cut.

BTW: what is the highest resolution G4 will support? 1680x1050? :)

[ Monday, June 26, 2006 17:24: Message edited by: VCH ]

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #52
Originally by Kelandon:

quote:
Geneforge 1: So, What Do You Think About the Serviles and the Shapers?

GF2: No, Really, How About the Serviles vs. the Shapers?

GF3: Serviles vs. Shapers: The Grudge Match
Dikiyoba would have said Geneforge, Geneforge 2: Reloaded, and Geneforge 3: Reloaded *Again*, but those are better titles.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #53
I would have picked:

Geneforge 1 - Castaway
Geneforge 2 - Training Days
Geneforge 3 - School's Out
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #54
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Geneforge 1: So, What Do You Think About the Serviles and the Shapers?

GF2: No, Really, How About the Serviles vs. the Shapers?

GF3: Serviles vs. Shapers: The Grudge Match

:P

I would have thought of this:
Geneforge: The Secret
Geneforge II: Power Grab
Geneforge III: First Strike

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Pass the sauerkraut and chips please.
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #55
we could go with the matrix theme and do the Geneforge
Geneforge: reloaded
Geneforge: revolutions
of my choice
Geneforge: forbidden art
Geneforge 2: mountains of ambition
Geneforge 3: islands of uprising

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7254
Profile Homepage #56
Geneforge: The Gene-Manipulation Menace (Every Saga Has a Beginning)
Geneforge 2: The Section Wars
Geneforge 3: Revenge of the Reptiles

The screenshots for Geneforge 4: Rebellion, even though they are pretty early ones are promising. I just hope that Mr. Vogel adds some realism to the game. By this I mean, that I hope the Shapers will not tolerate me to learn to shape... anything, and would, instead of laughing at my face, like, try and punish me for my rebellious thoughts. ;)

(If i decide to try and win their trust by switching sides, that is.)

[ Tuesday, June 27, 2006 02:48: Message edited by: valenciaraptor ]
Posts: 73 | Registered: Monday, June 26 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #57
Of course, desperate times call for desperate measures. (Of course this is the excuse for most games that try to bypass some realism)

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7254
Profile Homepage #58
But still, teaching shaping, magic and/or fighting to a previously traitorous servile, or an outside human... That would be just insane. I am, anyhow, curious as to how exactly Mr. Vogel will make this game turn out, since I honestly think the previous chapters all were exceptionally good. :)

[ Tuesday, June 27, 2006 09:22: Message edited by: valenciaraptor ]
Posts: 73 | Registered: Monday, June 26 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #59
But in wars, those who are too rigid break, and those with some flexablity prevail.

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
Profile #60
Jeff, I don't know how coding this would work, but would it be possible to make the game letterbox on widescreen monitors? G3 gets all strectched out on my 1920x1200.
Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
Board Administrator
Member # 1
Profile Homepage #61
"Jeff, I don't know how coding this would work, but would it be possible to make the game letterbox on widescreen monitors?"

In the preference, tell the game to not switch resolutions. The game area should be nicely centered on the window. Let me know what happens if you try this and it doesn't work.

- Jeff Vogel

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Official Board Admin
spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com
Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
Profile Homepage #62
For GF4, assuming you don't actually use all of the screen in high resolutions, could you allow it to appear in a window? I've been playing A4 and thinking how much more I'd like an irc window than blackness in that empty space to the sides of the actual game.

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Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram.

New Mac BoE
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #63
quote:
Originally written by Khoth:

For GF4, assuming you don't actually use all of the screen in high resolutions, could you allow it to appear in a window? I've been playing A4 and thinking how much more I'd like an irc window than blackness in that empty space to the sides of the actual game.
Yes! I really hate that blackness letterboxing effect. If G4 wont support widescreen than hopefully it will have some large border to cover up the black space.

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #64
Valencia:
quote:

But still, teaching shaping, magic and/or fighting to a previously traitorous servile, or an outside human... That would be just insane.

I suggest you read 'Echos of the Great Song' by David Gemmell. Quite often, you must make concessions because you are forced to do so in order to survive, not out of 'choice'.

The very fact that the Shapers are winning a war against a rebellion whose brute force and raw power is light years beyond theirs really doesn't surprise me. Power is nothing without control. That is, the means to harness it, and direct it in a way which harms the enemy without harming your own war effort in such a way as to produce a net negative effect.
This usually requires an organized body with a hierarchy, which can distribute orders, and ensure that subjects aren't exceeding their limits. The Shapers have this, the Rebellion does not.

GF2 and GF3 demonstrate this quite clearly. Despite the occasional defector from the Shaper order, the government of Shaper lands is stable and efficient. Its initial reaction to a war waged against it was slow and shoddy, but this is understandable. The Shaper government has had centuries of peace, and hence had not yet mobilizing its forces to prepare for a full scale war.
Remember that the Rebellion has been secretly preparing for war for decades, whereas the Shapers have been relatively unaware. The rebellion had the element of surprise, so it is not such a shock that the Shapers suffered several severe initial defeats.

However, at the end of GF3, and as hinted in the previews of GF4, it's quite apparent that while the Shapers were initially caught off balance by the rebellion, they have made a remarkable recovery, and are bringing all of their resources to bear.

The rebellion is poorly structured, unstable, and inefficient. In GF2, the Triad were mistrustful of each other. Worse, the various subgroups of the rebellion were constantly at each others throats.
The Drakkons tried to enslave intelligent Eyebeasts, and many turned as a result (there are at least three eyebeasts in Taker lands that have turned against the Takers).
The Drayks also despise the Ur-Drakkons, and it's quite apparent that the serviles are merely grunts for the rebellion. They are being manipulated by the Drakkons, and many of them know it. They know that as in 'Animal Farm', they have replaced one tyrant for another, who is most likely even worse then their former oppressor. At least the Shapers, while harsh, weren't power crazy and unstable. Shapers were predictable. Better the devil you know, than the devil you don't.
Essentially, the rebellion consists of various factions who relationships with each other are frosty at best.

Also, the fact that the Shapers are winning the war hints that they ARE making concessions to humans and serviles. This isn't shocking. Some Shapers are quite extreme, but others are willing to try other avenues before resorting to brute force and severe oppression (Diwayni from the 2nd island in GF3. Khull from the 4th island.) Also, Shaper views towards creations HAVE adapted over time.
Witness GF1, where you visit the arena. Hundreds of years ago, pitting creations against each other in bloody combat was the norm. Now it is outlawed. Why is was outlawed is never discussed, but I'm willing to bet that it was due partially due to the fact that Shapers don't believe in unnecessary cruelty when it comes to treating creations. It's not a huge stretch to assume that Shapers could make some concessions, if cooler minds prevailed.

I think that GF4 will be far more interesting than GF3, as it will be Jeff's opportunity to elaborate on how an Empire which spans two continents, and is responsible for established civilization, will respond to an alien threat whose raw power exceeds their own. Let's hope that he doesn't screw up this golden opportunity. After GF3, I don't have very high hopes.

[ Friday, June 30, 2006 18:17: Message edited by: Waylander ]

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7223
Profile Homepage #65
Geneforge 1: A Sholai Menace
Geneforge 2: Attack of the Serviles
Geneforge 3: Revenge of the Takers
Geneforge 4: A New War
Geneforge 5: The Rebels Strike Back
Geneforge 6: Return of the Shapers

:P

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Polaris

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.
- H.P. Lovecraft
Posts: 164 | Registered: Wednesday, June 14 2006 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #66
We shouldn't be too sure that the Rebels' 'raw power' exceeds that of the Shapers. Danette and Barzahl were Shapers, and Rahul pulls a neat trick that no Rebel has matched. Khyrryk has a trick that only Akhari Blaze has otherwise been seen to use, and he also knows how to make Rotghroths. And some of the baddest monsters in the games have been experimental beasts made by otherwise relatively conservative Shapers. Sharon may not be orthodox, but she's no rebel, and her Experimental Gamma would be a good pick in a lot of fights.

The Shapers we have seen in the games so far have been much more reluctant to release uncontrolled monsters than the Rebels. I don't think that means they couldn't do it if they wanted to.

It may be that under wartime pressure the Shapers liberalize. I think it is at least as likely that they also get more reckless, and start doing some of the dangerous things they have forbidden so strictly for so long. Jeff has a lot of scope for secret Shaper war labs doing necromancy, summoning demons, making uncontrolled monsters, or whatever, all of it formally forbidden by the most basic Shaper laws, but all of it secretly sanctioned by the Shaper Council as an emergency measure. And so I could imagine an opposition faction of purists within the Shapers, who would rather lose the war than win it by those means.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Infiltrator
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Profile Homepage #67
Excellent observations, Trinity, although I still stand by my comment that in terms of raw power, the Rebels are at an advantage. Rahul and Khyrryk were powerful, true. However, I believe that their 'tricks' were not displays of raw power, but of years of experience, training, and the ability to harness said power.

The rebels willingness to shape themselves, and to create overpowered Creations, as well as spawners that can churn out armies of undisciplined rogues, is what makes me believe that they have an advantage in the raw power department.

Sharon was quite powerful, but only after decades of training and experience. The main reason that Rebels have an advantage in the power area is due to canisters and the Geneforge, which present the opportunity to give huge amounts of power to untrained individuals in weeks. While it may take decades to 'power up' a Shaper, it would only take weeks to grant a rebel the same amount of power via the canisters.

And at the risk of sounding like a pain in the rear, I don't count Barzhal as a Shaper, but as a rebel. He may not be a rebel in the Taker manner, but he sure was a rebel against the Shaper order. He abused canisters, and hence made himself godlike. Before that, he was just an average Shaper (who was rather opportunisitic.)

quote:

The Shapers we have seen in the games so far have been much more reluctant to release uncontrolled monsters than the Rebels. I don't think that means they couldn't do it if they wanted to.

I'm quite sure that the Shapers could release uncontrolled rogues, and I never disputed that. However, rebels can do so in greater quantities, due to canister abuse and spawners. I doubt that Shapers have the ability to construct such monstrosities.

quote:

It may be that under wartime pressure the Shapers liberalize. I think it is at least as likely that they also get more reckless, and start doing some of the dangerous things they have forbidden so strictly for so long. Jeff has a lot of scope for secret Shaper war labs doing necromancy, summoning demons, making uncontrolled monsters, or whatever, all of it formally forbidden by the most basic Shaper laws, but all of it secretly sanctioned by the Shaper Council as an emergency measure. And so I could imagine an opposition faction of purists within the Shapers, who would rather lose the war than win it by those means.

Your scenario is also reasonable, to a degree. I think that the pressure of war will force the Shaper regime to become a little more flexible. Not only in granting creations concessions, but also limited canister usage and drayk shaping. Perhaps necromancy (the shaping of mindless shades). I seriously doubt that they would try to summon demons, however. Such a thing always ends badly, and the Shapers, with centuries of experience, would know this. Control is always of primary importance, as every Geneforge game has demonstrated.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #68
Well, maybe instead of a minority of purists opposing a majority of reckless Shapers, the proportions might be the other way around. I still expect some pretty dangerous things will get tried by nominally responsible Shapers. Heck, the games so far are full of leftovers from the dangerous experiments conducted by nominally responsible Shapers even in peacetime. The fierce Shaper discipline and the continual outbreaks of Shaper megalomania seem to be two sides of the same coin. I might even argue that disciplined Shaper society, with its Council that forbids mad experiments, is itself a giant mad experiment.

About Barzahl my point was that he began as a Shaper, and became a right-wing rebel by applying the abilities he held as a trained and unusually talented Guardian. If the Shaper ranks hold others as talented as he was, but under better discipline, then it isn't so hard to understand why they're winning.

In general I'm not so sure what the distinction is between raw and cooked power; skill is also power. But I'll grant that the Rebel ability to make instant experts with canisters is a concrete advantage. On the other hand, it doesn't seem so easy to make lots of canisters quickly. Barzahl was making Shapers out of sailors, but he was still desperately short of Shapers. The Shapers may have to train their people for years, but they have had centuries to do it on a large scale, and they don't seem to be all that shorthanded.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #69
Well, it may be that they may be short of canister made shapers, but drakons can be turned out in relativally greater numbers and require no control by link of essence.

P.S. David Gemmell is my favorite author (Drenai Saga is the best with the Waylander series being my favorite).

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #70
Trinity:
quote:

Well, maybe instead of a minority of purists opposing a majority of reckless Shapers, the proportions might be the other way around.

That sounds far more reasonable, considering the mentality of the Shaper regime. It's quite apparent that the Shapers value control over power. But I think that under the pressure of war, there will be squabbling over exactly where boundaries should lie when it comes to experimentation. No doubt there will be extremists in the Shaper order who will support demonic summoning and extreme modification of the genome.
How much influence they will have is something we will have to wait at see!

quote:

I still expect some pretty dangerous things will get tried by nominally responsible Shapers. Heck, the games so far are full of leftovers from the dangerous experiments conducted by nominally responsible Shapers even in peacetime.

I question the assertion that Danette and her troupe were 'nominally responsible'. Perhaps to begin with, but I think that they became power mad with canister abuse.

quote:

The fierce Shaper discipline and the continual outbreaks of Shaper megalomania seem to be two sides of the same coin.

I disagree. Such 'megalomania' is never sanctioned by the Shaper council, or the Shaper regime. Such actions are the results of law-breaking, reckless individuals. This is exactly why the Shaper regime is so hung up on control. Even just one individual can cause great havoc with Shaper magic.

quote:

I might even argue that disciplined Shaper society, with its Council that forbids mad experiments, is itself a giant mad experiment.

And I would strongly disagree with you. The Shaper Council isn't perfect. Bureacracy and arrogance make it slow to act. However, its desire to keep forbidden Shaper knowledge hidden is understandable and admirable.

quote:

About Barzahl my point was that he began as a Shaper, and became a right-wing rebel by applying the abilities he held as a trained and unusually talented Guardian. If the Shaper ranks hold others as talented as he was, but under better discipline, then it isn't so hard to understand why they're winning.

Ahh, now I get your point. However, as you mentioned, Barzahl was an 'unusual' individual. After canister abuse, he could probably stand down a Drakkon. But how many individuals in the Shaper regime are there like Barzhal? Every other Shaper in GF2 seemed rather pathetic, including Zakary (sp?).

quote:

In general I'm not so sure what the distinction is between raw and cooked power; skill is also power.

True. But there is a difference between innate skill, and learned skill (eg. Canisters vs. training from teachers and books).

For example, a Drakkon has more natural raw power than a Shaper. Larger, stronger, with powerful innate magical abilities and a essence orb breath. A Shaper can only gain his 'power' through experience and training. 'Refined' power may be an appropriate description.

quote:
On the other hand, it doesn't seem so easy to make lots of canisters quickly. Barzahl was making Shapers out of sailors, but he was still desperately short of Shapers.

Granted. Although the Rebels will most likely refine their canister making techniques. And they will create more Geneforges.

quote:

The Shapers may have to train their people for years, but they have had centuries to do it on a large scale, and they don't seem to be all that shorthanded
I disagree that the Shapers are not shorthanded. Geneforge 3 demonstrates that comment to be dubious at best. Very few Shapers on the 1st island. One Shaper on the 2nd. Quite a few Shapers on the 3rd, but many regiments were without Shaper support (witness the Spawners on the 3rd island. Only a small regiment of outsiders and ONE guardian to take out massive spawners. Huh?)
The fourth island probably had the strongest concentration of Shapers.
And the fifth island was a joke. A motley band of Shapers who had not been reinforced for months.

I understand that they were islands, and that they were under quarantine. But still, I wasn't impressed. I always get the impression that the Shapers are outnumbered by their enemies.

[ Saturday, July 01, 2006 22:00: Message edited by: Waylander ]

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #71
quote:
I understand that they were islands, and that they were under quarantine. But still, I wasn't impressed. I always get the impression that the Shapers are outnumbered by their enemies.
Keep in mind all we've seen is isolated shaper areas, not centers of shaper rule. As for the islands, recall that the rest of the world was at war. I doubt the shapers would spend time trying to reclaim some islands when the central core of the shapers was in jeopardy.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #72
*i:
quote:

Keep in mind all we've seen is isolated shaper areas, not centers of shaper rule. As for the islands, recall that the rest of the world was at war. I doubt the shapers would spend time trying to reclaim some islands when the central core of the shapers was in jeopardy.

I acknowledged those factors in my previous posts. I still feel that the islands in GF3 were understaffed.

Also, the rest of the world wasn't at war... only one of the two Shaper continents was. It would have been strategically wise for the safe continent to send troops to Terrestria, AND the islands, to form a nearby base for Terrestria. I'm willing to bet that that is exactly what the Shaper's do.

Retlaw:
quote:

P.S. David Gemmell is my favorite author (Drenai Saga is the best with the Waylander series being my favorite).

David Gemmell is quite impressive, although I've noticed that his plots and characters are becoming pretty repetitive. I loved the Drenai saga. 'Waylander' and 'Echoes of the Great Song' are my favourites, however. Ravenheart is pretty good, too.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #73
The Shapers most likely outnumber the Rebels. They have 2 continents full of people.

The Rebels most likely have to attack the Shapers to get food. They attacked a very populated area, so They could not of set up hidden cities where they farmed.

3 of those islands were unimportant to the Shapers. There are multiple Shaper schools and testing grounds. Only testing at Gull Isle and Dhonal's Keep were important. Gull Isle wasn't prepared for an attack from serviles, a gazer and a drakon.

The rebels have fewer drakons, gazers and rots than the shapers have shapers. The base of the rebel army is serviles. The shapers have shapers as the base of their army.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7223
Profile Homepage #74
Yes, the Shapers have two continents of people. However, they aren't Shapers. The best they could use common people for is cannon fodder (as in footsoldiers). Even worse, many people would sign up at the chance to destroy the Shapers, so they're a threat as well.

The base of the Shaper army isn't Shapers. It's whatever guards, people, and such they can scrounge up.
Guardians are the fighters. Agents are the assasins, diplomats, etc. Shapers are the researchers. Guardians will be on the front lines, not Shapers.

The Rebels have far more Serviles than the Shapers have Shapers. Forty trained, battle-hardened, Serviles are a match for a smaller number of Shapers/Guardians/Agents.

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Polaris

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.
- H.P. Lovecraft
Posts: 164 | Registered: Wednesday, June 14 2006 07:00

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