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AuthorTopic: Wow (G4)
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #150
You hit upon the flaw of a central leader with no checks on his power. When the leader is good then things are okay. But a corrupt or incompetent leader can destroy everything around him. The real world example is the Bush administraion believing that they are the onl ones that know what is best for the world. When reality intrudes they try to force it back into their vision of what should happen or deny that it has happened. Iraq is an example where Rumsfeld thought he knew better than experienced military men how to run a war. We eliminated the old regime, but there wasn't and still isn't the manpower to control the country. We have the power to destroy the area, but not enough people there to police and repair it.

The Shaper Council has the members balancing each other, but are slower to react to change. This prevents anyone of them getting out of control, but a good leader is blocked by the others from making major changes.

In all the previous Geneforge games every side has had flaws. What has been lacking is a synthesis of the best ideas from each side. In order to achieve this the Shaper Council would have to recognize that their creations are not just tools to be used and discarded. The creations though have to accept some limits on what they can do, Currently the rebels are going all out to exceed the Shaper's power with no cares or restraints on what they will do. This has lead to powerful creations that are trying to dominate the weaker creations and destroy the shapers.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Agent
Member # 6581
Profile Homepage #151
I understand that one full-power Leader is a risk, but I think is the only way. These are the same considerations of the Roman Council about Augustus.

I know, a corrupted leader can destroy everything that the good leader did before him. This can avoided by electing the Leaders for their actions and not because they are sons of the deceased leader.

With this I don't mean that the old Council must be destroyed. Simply, like Romans (again! ^_-), the Council will elect leaders and can solve others minor importance statal problems.

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Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion

You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl

Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba
Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #152
quote:
What do you call the current situation if not war? Don't forget, the Shaper empire produced the rebels in the first place; what makes you think they won't keep on producing more?
Yes, I do call it war. When did I say it wasn't?
Yes, they did produce the rebels. But, it was because of bad management of a situation. Which wouldn't happen again. If you doubt me play the whole game with Alwan.
Also, don't think I agree with the shapers on everything. Because I do disagree with them on allot of things. But killing every shaper is not the solution. So I'm forced too go with the shapers.

[ Tuesday, July 11, 2006 06:18: Message edited by: Major ]

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Agent
Member # 6581
Profile Homepage #153
quote:
Originally written by Major:

Also, don't think I agree with the shapers on everything. Because I do disagree with them on allot of things. But killing every shaper is not the solution. So I'm forced too go with the shapers.
And kill every Rebel?

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Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion

You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl

Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba
Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #154
quote:
And kill every Rebel?
I had to go through this question myself before I joined the shapers. Some, them that force you too. How would I do this? (Please note, you can't do this in the game.) Give the drakons a choice. Either they go into hiding or retreat to some remote place. While I go to the council with a plan-compromise, and "convince" the council to except.

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #155
You mean "accept"?

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #156
The drakons would just build up again and come and kill you. Akhari kept an many armies in hiding while he built up his forces, they definetly could.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #157
quote:
You mean "accept"?

Yes, how could I miss that? I guess that I should have looked closer before I posted it, sorry.
quote:
The drakons would just build up again and come and kill you. Akhari kept an many armies in hiding while he built up his forces, they definetly could.

Yes, if they wanted too. But if they did it would only prove I should stick with the shapers.
But when I think about it, you have a point. The Drakons would probably almost be killed too extiction. (Because they're so headstrong.) Maybe the Drayks and serviles will go back to the shapers. With more rights of course.

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #158
I have my doubts that the Shapers would accept them. These independent creatures endanger all they believe in. The Council would not rest until they, and their like, are all dead (except for a few isolated experiences where a creature may betray their kind to lend GREAT aid to the Shapers).

[ Tuesday, July 11, 2006 14:27: Message edited by: Retlaw May ]

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5550
Profile Homepage #159
Both one strong leader and a multi personed council have their flaws, as has been noted. So, why not combine the two? The leader is able to make decisons on how to run the government and execute policies. If the council strongly siagreed with an action, they could halt it if the opposers won 70% of the councils votes. The council could make new laws with a simple majority. The leader could refuse to sign off on it, and then the council would need a 70% majority. What do you think?

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Q: What is the sound of one hand clapping?
A: The sound of someone getting smacked upside the head.

Duct tape is like the force. It has a good side and a dark side and it binds the universe together.

Don't worry Alorael, custom titles are overrated.
Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #160
It seems to me that the discussion about possible leadership systems is rather akin to shifting deckchairs on the Titanic. Once the secrets of building a Geneforge become common knowledge (and the way things are going, it's only a matter of time), a few big words from on high aren't going to stop any reasonably well-resourced group from making an army of walking, talking nuclear weapons.

[ Wednesday, July 12, 2006 03:06: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #161
You forget that geneforges are not easy to make. Remember all the stuff you had to go through in G2 to finsh it. Then keep in mind that they were close to being finshed. Plus powerful shaping can be sensed by experince shapers from very far away, remeber sharon from G2 when you ask her did if she knew any thing about the illegal shaping experiments and she says something about senseing powerful shaping very far away. The Drakon leader (forgot his name) though he said they where working on others he also said they where hard to make. Also next to every geneforge complex is a huge seruous of vats with organge poisonis liquid in it, and huge power stations. Any enemy with half a brain cell will know your making something that will do him/she/it great harm.

[ Wednesday, July 12, 2006 18:46: Message edited by: Lord Safey ]

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #162
The problem is that people will find isolated areas to develope cannisters and geneforges where shapers aren't around to sense them. Drypeak was a failure where a few weak shapers were sent because they couldn't do much harm. If they hadn't come from Sucia Island then they wouldn't have had the knowledge to do the type of damage that resulted.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #163
what you say is true but you forget logisticas. It takes a lot of resources to make one. Which to make it quickly you have to bring in resources from a city and hope know one discovers the caravans (which would need to travel far). The other option is to develop a city on the spot which took decades in the case of G2 even then you had to bring in resources from outside under the guise of trying to slavage a failed colony. In G3 they had been building up in secert from some time on the Ile of Spears. So your two option are too gather resources quickly and try to complete before anyone realizes what you are doing or build it slowly and hope no one stumbles in on it. Either case it is a logistical nightmare to build something much more so to hide that something that uses up some much resources.

[ Wednesday, July 12, 2006 19:00: Message edited by: Lord Safey ]

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #164
All the same, rebels have come very close to successfully completing two Geneforges, and both only failed due to dumb luck (a remarkably talented apprentice in the right place at the right time). Eventually the Shapers' luck is going to run out.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #165
Only because the shapers were complancet and not looking for it. Now the shapers know what the rebels place their hopes on and will stop at nothing to find geneforge bases and to crush them.

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5118
Profile #166
Kyshakk That's a cool creature, multiple att 90

[ Monday, August 07, 2006 02:10: Message edited by: felix ]

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This apple? no. That apple? no. What about that orange? no. "What DO YOU WANT!!!!" 'Wink' "I want the apple you are eating."
Posts: 87 | Registered: Sunday, October 24 2004 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7099
Profile #167
I dont mean to sound gay, but I'd like to see some romance mixed in the games. Maybe its from the Star Wars books I read, but oh well. Oh, and hiring merceneries. Like, you do a mission for a merceneries barracks organization, and they give you a free Ai ally, and after that you can hire a crappy mercenery for lets say, 1000 coins. And they stay with you till death. Or, theres different lvls of merceneries. lvl 10, 500. lvl 20, 1000. lvl 30 3000. Isnt lvl 30 the limit? I dont know

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I like everyone...I just like some people more than others!
Posts: 60 | Registered: Wednesday, May 3 2006 07:00

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