Wow (G4)
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 01:49
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FOR AKHARI!!! *attacks Waylander* -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 02:58
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quote:I cannot agree. The Rebels want a new order, not chaos. The want to destroy the previous order, though. But is not a news. Old order are rarely keeped alive when another comes (if they lose, of course). Diplomancy can be good, but not with Shapers. They held the power for too much time. -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 03:11
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quote:By leaders I meant bosses in the sense of extra-tough opponents. The assumption about Spawned creations is that they are somehow temporary. But once we start quibbling about which units to count, this discussion becomes arbitrary. To me the bottom line is that in G3 the two sides are balanced until the player comes along, and for one PC to make such a difference it must be that both sides are stretched awfully thin for what they are trying to do. On the specific point about the Isle of Spears: I may well be forgetting how many big monsters were there; I only remember a few Drakons and one Eyebeast that were truly on the Rebel's side. By that stage of the game, as Loyalist or Rebel, the Isle of Spears and Rahul's keep both seemed pretty easy, so the body count didn't really register for me. About Shaper control versus Rebel chaos, I don't think you're taking the proper long-range perspective. The Shaper Council may have as many disasters per year as the Takers have per week, but on the slower time scale, the effect is the same. They are trying to do something which they manifestly cannot really expect to control. Sucia Island was no isolated incident. Sending ambitious and talented Shapers out to research labs in isolated regions seems to be a basic function of Shaper society. Danette was just waiting to happen. Thirst for knowledge and power is as deep a streak in Shaper character as discipline -- or we would not be continually learning about things which Shapers have had to forbid. And Shaper discipline even functions as a kind of enabler, because the Shapers do not just believe in control in the sense that they think that control is a good thing. They also believe in control in the sense that they believe their controls are effective. This is how Shaper discipline and Shaper power-lust strike their truce, by deciding time and again that the risks are adequately managed. Then in the aftermath of a disaster, they conclude that just a bit more restraint was all that was missing, seal everything up, and try again somewhere else a few years later. "It would have been fine if we had just been a little stricter" is the same line we can hear from any mad rogue. I don't see that I have to propose a better way of being a Shaper. The Rebels may simply be right, that the only good Shaper is a dead one. On the other hand perhaps there is a level of caution that could be reached, or a cultural surgery that could eliminate Shaper arrogance, that would make Shaping sane and safe. But by the same token it is conceivable that the Rebellion might turn out well in the end after all, as well. The Shapers and Rebels still seem to me very similar, if you take a certain long-term perspective. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 04:28
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quote:Well, the Shapers could of course stop conducting research entirely, and stick with the creations and spells they've got. But is this a realistic alternative? We've seen that the technological advantage the Rebels possess has been enough to make them a serious threat to an empire spanning two continents; it seems that the nature of power in the world of Geneforge guarantees that any faction which does not continually strive to acquire new knowledge will render itself irrelevant in the long run. And if it's true that the kind of power Shaping allows cannot in principle be kept under control, surely the sensible thing to do is to throw one's lot in with whichever side promises to hold back the chaos for longest. What's scary is that the Shaper/Rebel conflict isn't even close to a worst-case scenario yet; a degree of order is still maintained, and Shaping technologies are still in the hands of relatively few people. Imagining what a real proliferation of uncontrolled power would look like makes it very clear why moderate factions such as the Awakened did not and could not survive. Concerns like servile rights simply become irrelevant when everyone with any power is trying to crush everyone else to prevent them from doing the same. Treading water to stay afloat does you no good when you're swimming with sharks. [ Tuesday, July 04, 2006 04:35: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7223
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 05:00
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quote:Unless you're holding a machine gun, as the Awakened were. You can't forget, that despite the Awakened's peacefulness, they were still powerful. [ Tuesday, July 04, 2006 05:01: Message edited by: Elijah ] -------------------- Polaris The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. - H.P. Lovecraft Posts: 164 | Registered: Wednesday, June 14 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 06:50
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They were powerful... But relativally to the other three choices they were the weakest and, in the end, were the most desperate for your help. (when I talk about sects I am not only talking about the shapers at drypeak, I am talking about serving the shapers as a whole). And you forget that your first test (and therefore easiest test) for any non-Awakened sect was to destroy the magnus complex (which wasn't all that hard to do). [ Tuesday, July 04, 2006 06:52: Message edited by: Retlaw May ] -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3618
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 07:34
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As it stands, rogue creations and such are a problem because power is in the hands of so few; the majority of people are not able to defend themselves. If more people were allowed to shape, then there would be more accidents, but they'd each be quickly contained. (Having an evil drakon or two wandering about wouldn't be a problem if every town had ten mages in it--some human, some drayk--capable of shaping, not fully trusting each other but obeying the laws because each is outnumbered.) Posts: 33 | Registered: Thursday, October 30 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 08:14
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quote:The trouble with that is that humans (and genetically modified drakons, I suppose) are social creatures by nature. They would quickly figure out that joining with one neighbor would allow them to overpower another and split the spoils. Pretty soon, factions would form, and you're back where you started, except that armies of Shapers fighting each other can do a heckuva lot more collateral damage that sword-weilding grunts. -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 09:39
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quote:What are you talking about? For one thing, most people would barely be able to make a little flame even with the aid of dry brush because most outsiders don't understand magic very well. Also, that would mean pouring resources into teaching people the proper use of magic. And even if they learn to control magic well, every bar/tavern fight could potentially blow up the whole town/city. And on the subject of many being able to contain something that was produced by one of your idea's non-shaper shaper. Rogues are definataly NOT the biggest reason why shaping is so controled. It is that DISEASE that could wipe out entire civilizations could occure from a careless outsider trying to make a crop grow bigger vegitables. How would your untrained shapers deal with that. Yes, I sound like I am a loyalist, and most of the time my favorite endings in the series involve being loyalist (sometimes canister sometimes not). (Though my favorite ending of G1 was using the geneforge and then destroying it.) [ Tuesday, July 04, 2006 09:41: Message edited by: Retlaw May ] -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 10:41
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To Thuryl: Ya, shutting down all their R&D as too dangerous might well doom the Shapers even if the Rebels were gone, because a few rogue wizards might make breakthroughs that let them break up Shaper rule. Probably the only real solution, in the world of Geneforge, is to re-shape Shaper culture so that the proportion of latent megalomaniacs in the upper percentiles of skill and talent drops from the present 1 in 4 to 1 in 4000. At that level, there might be a threshold effect whereby the social immune system of discipline and control could reliably contain the rare rogue elements. As Shaper culture now stands, however, thirst for power seems to be like the endemic corruption in many unfortunate real-world societies. Assign a few good Shapers to clean up a catastrophe, and a couple of them are bound to smuggle out some canisters and start de-engineering. How do you get back from there, how do you purge the cancer of megalomania from the body politic? It's not clear there is a way, short of a terrible plague or war that sweeps the old world away. Real-world history is not terribly inspirational for this sort of thing. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 13:18
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quote:The ending to Geneforge 1 in which you leave the Geneforge intact would seem to provide a compelling counterargument to this claim. Giving everybody access to near-limitless power doesn't seem to turn out well in practice. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7083
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written Tuesday, July 4 2006 20:28
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quote:One reason it's so horrible because there are laws against it in some countries. The Fallout 2 example came about because some countries (Germany comes to mine) have laws that specifically prohibit violence against children in their media. So if you're a commercial RPG maker that wants to translate the game into German to sell copies there, it's easier to just not have any children in the first place than to make localization teams strip out or replace children with other characters and have everything still work (Fallout 2's removal of children led to some bugs and wackiness) if the player has the ability to go on murderous rampages. Posts: 19 | Registered: Friday, April 28 2006 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7252
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 05:36
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it will be better.. if being a shaper loyalist or rebel.. in real life or.. in a MMORPG.. wouldnt that be gr8? still.. being a loyalist is the best.. killing all those who oppose u.. doesnt sound bad does it? well.. it all depends on who.. u are does it.. -------------------- Oh you're a cute Adze-Haakai you are.. Posts: 732 | Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 07:09
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a stack of phrases could be a sort of haiku but I don't think so EDIT: For the sake of continuity I confess that the original post did not fit the 5-7-5 pattern I was aiming at because (go irony) I miscounted the number of syllables in 'intelligibility'. It was late. Anyway, I like this version better even apart from syllables. [ Wednesday, July 05, 2006 23:50: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 11:13
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I am guessing that you were trying to make a haiku, but the middle line doesn't have 7 syllables... 5-7-5 You may want to edit that soon considering its topic. [ Wednesday, July 05, 2006 11:14: Message edited by: Retlaw May ] -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 14:27
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quote:Technically, a haiku is divided into seventeen on, not syllables. And many translators don't follow the 5-7-5 pattern when translating haiku into English. [ Wednesday, July 05, 2006 14:28: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7223
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 15:20
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Geneforge 4 looks neat A better plot would be nice As well as no Geneforge EDIT: Except that's 5-7-6. Dammit. [ Wednesday, July 05, 2006 15:21: Message edited by: Elijah ] -------------------- Polaris The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. - H.P. Lovecraft Posts: 164 | Registered: Wednesday, June 14 2006 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 15:35
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quote:Especially since the natural sound of seventeen Japanese morae is much, much shorter than the natural sound of seventeen English syllables. Japanese syllables are open syllables ("bo," for instance), whereas English syllables can have absurd consonant clusters ("strength," for instance). -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 17:02
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But we aren't writing in Japanese are we? So you should stick to the English haiku. But the bottom line is that the poem didn't fit the build for a haiku. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 17:17
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That was our point: the "standard English haiku" is not necessarily 5-7-5. That's a silly oversimplification that elementary school English teachers proliferate. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 19:12
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But does this hakujin's poem fit any of the haiku variations then? -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 19:38
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It doesn't really matter. It sounds fine, and it makes its point well enough. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7162
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 20:11
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quote:nonsense i'm in middle school and that's what they teach us. -------------------- Dikiyoba is a god. Posts: 36 | Registered: Friday, May 26 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 23:41
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quote:There are no standard English haiku variations, because haiku is not an English poetic form. Attempting to directly transpose the form of haiku into English is just as absurd as trying to transpose iambic pentameter into Japanese would be; the concept of an iamb is meaningless in a pitch-accented language. [ Wednesday, July 05, 2006 23:43: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, July 5 2006 23:53
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I have edited my pseudoku. I like the new one better, and wish it to stand as the official version in all future anthologies of my poetic works. Editors with lucrative poetry contracts please take note. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |