Wow (G4)

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Author	Topic: Wow (G4)
Suspicious Vlish Infiltrator Member # 2245	written Thursday, July 6 2006 00:35 Profile Homepage #125 Student of Trinity: quote: By leaders I meant bosses in the sense of extra-tough opponents. I still fail to see exactly why only 'extra-tough' opponents should factor into the equation when discussing my claim that the Shapers are outnumbered by the Rebels. quote: The assumption about Spawned creations is that they are somehow temporary. The problem with this is that you have not demonstrated that your assumption is not a reasonable one. In fact, all evidence observed in the game demonstrates that spawned creations are permanent, except for 'Fading' Creations. quote: But once we start quibbling about which units to count, this discussion becomes arbitrary. Not really. It is reasonable to say that any unit that can be brought to bear against the Shaper regime should be counted. If you don't believe this, explain why. quote: To me the bottom line is that in G3 the two sides are balanced until the player comes along, and for one PC to make such a difference it must be that both sides are stretched awfully thin for what they are trying to do. Again, I strongly disagree with you. If anything, the Shapers were on the back foot. The Isle of Spears was entirely under Rebel control. The Rebels had conquered Gull Island, and had imprisoned the Shapers. Had the PC not been involved, it is reasonable to say that the Shapers would have starved to death. The Rebels controlled at least the west half of the Island, and were rampaging across the east half. As a result, the Shapers were forced to pull their forces back into two fortifications: Dhonal's Keep, and Fort Winston. Likewise, the Shaper forces of the 2nd Island were confined to a town, while the Rebels continually took ground at the north end of the island. And needless to say, the rogues ran rampant on the first island. Of course, we will never know for sure who would have won had the PC not waltzed in. However, the fact remains that the Shapers had suffered many defeats, had lost a lot of ground to the Rebels, and were on the run. It is reasonable to say that the Rebels would have faired quite well on their own. quote: On the specific point about the Isle of Spears: I may well be forgetting how many big monsters were there; I only remember a few Drakons and one Eyebeast that were truly on the Rebel's side. By that stage of the game, as Loyalist or Rebel, the Isle of Spears and Rahul's keep both seemed pretty easy, so the body count didn't really register for me. I guess we could quibble about the fine details of relative strengths of various monsters on both sides. However, the fact remains that the Isle of Spears was under complete Rebel domination, and was populated by Drakkons, Eyebeasts and Drayks, all creations whose raw power exceeds that of the Shapers found on other islands. quote: About Shaper control versus Rebel chaos, I don't think you're taking the proper long-range perspective. The Shaper Council may have as many disasters per year as the Takers have per week, but on the slower time scale, the effect is the same. I don't understand the logic behind the above statement. What you said is directly contradictory. If the Shapers have a lower rate of disasters, then they will have a less chaotic effect on the environment in the short and long run than the Rebels. quote: They are trying to do something which they manifestly cannot really expect to control. I disagree. quote: Sucia Island was no isolated incident. Again, I disagree. But since Jeff has not elaborated on this, as the Geneforge series has only really focused on the events of Sucia Island and their repurcussions, I can't really say with definity. quote: Sending ambitious and talented Shapers out to research labs in isolated regions seems to be a basic function of Shaper society. We've observed roughly three instances of this occurring... Danette, Barzhal, and the Shaper on the fourth Island in GF3. I don't think that it is fair to make such generalizations from THREE instances. Of course we aren't going to hear about all of the responsible and humble Shapers who were sent to isolated areas... after all, there would be no real problems, and hence no need for a Geneforge sequel. As they say, it's easier to call a cricket player a poor batsman if you count their misses, but ignore their hits. quote: Danette was just waiting to happen. Not necessarily. I would make the argument that Danette became crazy from canister usage, and changed. The Shaper Council would have not have picked up Danette's deranged mind when she came before them, as she wasn't deranged at that time. quote: Thirst for knowledge and power is as deep a streak in Shaper character as discipline -- or we would not be continually learning about things which Shapers have had to forbid. I agree with you here. However, what you omit is that the Shaper Council ensures that Shapers learn discipline and restraint, to help ensure that Shapers never cross the boundary of 'legitimate research' to 'mad experiments'. quote: And Shaper discipline even functions as a kind of enabler, because the Shapers do not just believe in control in the sense that they think that control is a good thing. They also believe in control in the sense that they believe their controls are effective. I don't agree. The Shapers are constantly wary, constantly on the watch for danger and a loss of control. This is exactly why they establish safeguard after safeguard, and yet still remain alert to any hidden threats. quote: I don't see that I have to propose a better way of being a Shaper. The Rebels may simply be right, that the only good Shaper is a dead one. The point I was trying to make is that you can't support a rebellion and the overthrow of an existing regime, if you can't propose a better alternative. Let us say that the Rebellion is successful. How will the two continents be administered? Who would make the laws? What would be the status of the serviles, drayks, drakkons and eyebeasts? Would rogues be allowed to run around the countryside? What would prevent drakkons from releasing rogues and diseases into the countryside on a whim? After playing the Geneforge series, I don't have much faith in the restraint and control of the rebels. Also, would the Drakkons willingly reliquish their power, and not enforce a dictatorship uncannily similar to that of the Shapers? Will there be civil war? Quite simply, we know that Shaper society works. It is orderly, it keeps accidents to a minimum, civilizaton is established in province after province. On the other hand, we have no evidence that the Rebels could successfully establish a stable nation. Quite the contrary, they seem to have a nasty habit of sowing chaos, and of self-destruction. The Rebellion can't even keep its various factions from clawing at each others throats. quote: On the other hand perhaps there is a level of caution that could be reached, or a cultural surgery that could eliminate Shaper arrogance, that would make Shaping sane and safe. I don't find that a reasonable solution. Arrogance can't be eliminated, as it is an inbuilt trait in all humans, although some are more arrogant than others. The best one can do is teach all individuals restraint, and place safeguards in place against arrogant behaviour and experimentation. quote: But by the same token it is conceivable that the Rebellion might turn out well in the end after all, as well. With the pigs becoming the humans, Animal Farm style? Colour me skeptical. quote: The Shapers and Rebels still seem to me very similar, if you take a certain long-term perspective. It looks like we will have to agree to disagree on this issue! :D -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 \| Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Azuma Velius Lifecrafter Member # 7252	written Thursday, July 6 2006 02:18 Profile #126 haha.. this isnt haiku.. i just like typing.. this way... still.. i wonder if jeff.. will make a.. MMORPG.. wouldnt that be gr8? hehehe.. nd b4 anything else.. make the Gazer and all.. things associated with it.. be stronger in G4.. -------------------- Oh you're a cute Adze-Haakai you are.. Posts: 732 \| Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Thursday, July 6 2006 02:34 Profile #127 The Rebels took the Shapers by surprise in the Ashen Isles, and overran large amounts of real estate. But even after playing both sides of the game, it does not appear that the Rebels have any prospects of further progress, until the PC does the right tricks for them. And both sides take the stalemate for granted. Diwaniya, for instance, never says that he is inevitably doomed because the number of rogues is steadily growing, which would be the obvious case if the spawners really made permanent creations forever. As to judging Shaper society, I take your point that games about situations where Shaper control worked would be dull. Still, though, the only evidence we can use is what we have, and in the games we have seen, dangerous Shaper experiments are common. And I don't think you can excuse madness on the grounds that it is canister-induced. Someone who would build a Geneforge after using canisters is someone who was already a latent megalomaniac, or they wouldn't have used the canisters in the first place. I am not arguing in favor of the Rebels. I am arguing, from the evidence of events in the games, that the long-term collective behavior of the Shapers embodies the very hubris they condemn so strongly in individuals. Anyone can talk the talk of control, and all the mad ones do; walking the walk means not overestimating the effectiveness of your controls, and backing off from excessive risk. This the Shapers have collectively failed to do, time after time. In G1 there was the Geneforge, but also the independent experiments in necromantic immortality, which also ended badly. So two out of the three leading Shapers went off the rails, and the third clearly would have done as much if he could have, for he claimed credit for the Geneforge. Then when the Sholai grabbed a Shaper at random, they got Goettsch. In G2 there are Zakary and Barzahl, Zakary being a rebel who repented only belatedly, plus Sharon, who has made a wicked Experimental Gamma, and Phariton, who has become a canister-freak Drayk-maker. I believe some of Barzahl's important underlings are 'fallen' Shapers rather than jumped-up plebes. And the builders of the Awakened Magus Complex were clearly trained Shapers, for the PC recognizes their Shaper lab architecture. The percentage of Shapers who yield to temptation seems to be awfully high. In G3 we have Hoge, Litalia, and several lesser 'fallen' Shapers among the Rebels, plus at least two independent rogue researchers, and the erstwhile governor of Gull. There is that smith on Gull who has gone all Stockholm-syndrome with a Drayk. Khyrryk does seem pretty sane, but even he has somehow learned to make Rotghroths, and is willing to teach the technique for cash. Then there is the sealed mine complex on Dhonal, where they all got wiped out by their golem monstrosity. True disciplined Shapers, who never attempt anything beyond their capacity, seem a bit scarce in G3 too. With this amount of evidence, the persistent Shaper remarks about discipline and control have simply begun to sound hollow to me. I don't doubt that the faithful Shapers are sincere, but they are also the ones who remain confident that their control will eventually be sufficient. In the face of the evidence, this confidence is surprising, and reminds me too much of the overconfidence of the Shapers who go bad. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Zeviz Nuke and Pave Member # 24	written Thursday, July 6 2006 08:14 Profile Homepage #128 So would you recommend banning all research? The Shaper controls are already strong enough to cause resentment in population and rebellious tendencies in the cases you've mentioned. So if, as you suggest, these controls are fundamentally flawed, the only option is to completely ban new research and punish any experimentation by instant death. Somehow I doubt the viability of such an extreme solution. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 \| Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Thursday, July 6 2006 10:23 Profile #129 The fault is not in the stars, but in themselves. On the individual scale, the danger in research is creations running amok, demons getting loose, or whatever. But in principle, as far as I think we can tell from the evidence in the games, these kinds of risks can be adequately managed. Maybe demons are always out, but golems could be done if done right. On the social scale, the danger is arrogant overconfidence that pushes the envelope too far, and gives too little weight to dangers to the general public. The Shaper problem is not that they pursue research that could not possibly be done safely, but that they pursue research when so many of them are power-mad maniacs waiting to happen. On the individual scale, perhaps a rogue Shaper researcher trusts a control spell which is not actually adequate for a dangerous new creation. On the social scale, the Shaper council trusts people like Danette not to start reckless projects, then trusts people like Barzahl to clean them up, and so on. The Taker/Rebel defense, against the charge of recklessness, is that they have no choice. Evidently the Shaper Council could mount a similar defence, for the supply of truly trustworthy Shapers seems woefully short. So maybe they are doing the best they can. So are the Rebels. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Retlaw May Shock Trooper Member # 7143	written Thursday, July 6 2006 10:53 Profile #130 But what you aren't taking into account is these are just subgroups of ONE misshap. That does not mean that this happens often, in fact, I think we would have heard about it if something like this had happened before... -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 \| Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
bigfix Apprentice Member # 7162	written Thursday, July 6 2006 11:58 Profile Homepage #131 actually if it had happened before the shapers would have "silenced" anyone who knew about and pretended it never happen. quote: gr8?....nd b4 anything else.. valcrist, please type your words your post offends my eyes. -------------------- Dikiyoba is a god. Posts: 36 \| Registered: Friday, May 26 2006 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Thursday, July 6 2006 12:30 Profile #132 A lot of the 'bad Shaper' episodes are indeed part of the story of the Geneforge. And I'll grant that an actual working canister, or the discovery that a working Geneforge was once made, provide stronger temptations than the spontaneous whim to pursue some dangerous experiment of one's own. So it might be that some of the Shapers who have 'fallen' would have stayed on the straight and narrow if Danette had never started it all. We could say that some of the Shapers who fell may also have been pushed. But they were all too ready to fall. And a society of magical creators that would maintain its discipline when things went smoothly, but suffered mass defections as soon as forbidden breakthroughs appeared, would not really be responsible enough, collectively, for its power. So the 'Danette made me do it' defence doesn't seem to me to hold water. And there is also a fair amount of evidence of bad Shaping independent of the Geneforge arc. There was Tek on Sucia Island, trying to become immortal as a shade. There was Sharon in G2. In G3 there were the golem monstrosity crew and that guy with the runed serviles, both on Dhonal's Isle, and that necromancer dude on the second island. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Thursday, July 6 2006 12:51 Profile Homepage #133 Originally by bigfix: quote: valcrist, please type your words your post offends my eyes. bigfix, if you're going to make comments like that, you're going to have to learn how to use capital letters. Originally by Student of Trinity: quote: There was Tek on Sucia Island, trying to become immortal as a shade. I think that necromancy experiments only took off after Tek and Zavor had used many canisters. However, they started using the canisters "before they were fully tested," so the point still stands. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Major Warrior Member # 7067	written Thursday, July 6 2006 13:18 Profile #134 quote: There was Tek on Sucia Island, trying to become immortal as a shade. Yes but they were still reatively still new to magic. quote: There was Sharon in G2. That was one isolated person. In anyplace there's going to be a few who want more freedom enough to go into hiding. quote: and that necromancer dude on the second island. He was a mage, not a shaper. Actually if they had been more strict with magic that wouldn't have happened. quote: and that guy with the runed serviles, He was one of many other mages at a complex. All the others died instead of taking that magic. Perhaps you can see that I'm a loyalist. -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 \| Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
bigfix Apprentice Member # 7162	written Thursday, July 6 2006 16:24 Profile Homepage #135 quote: bigfix, if you're going to make comments like that, you're going to have to learn how to use capital letters. Sorry Dikiyoba. I hate capitalizing sentences. It makes me feel dirty. -------------------- Dikiyoba is a god. Posts: 36 \| Registered: Friday, May 26 2006 07:00
Azuma Velius Lifecrafter Member # 7252	written Thursday, July 6 2006 20:31 Profile #136 reallyyy..im just gonna stop typing the way i did b4 because im taking up to much space..well..about the shaper/rebel conflinct..just choose whoever the hell u want.. and blow up unflinchingly all those who oppose u..wouldnt hurt if u kill someone hindring ur goal.. [ Friday, July 07, 2006 02:28: Message edited by: Valcrist ] -------------------- Oh you're a cute Adze-Haakai you are.. Posts: 732 \| Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Thursday, July 6 2006 21:25 Profile Homepage #137 quote: Originally written by Major: quote: and that necromancer dude on the second island. He was a mage, not a shaper. Actually if they had been more strict with magic that wouldn't have happened. But they weren't, and it did. That's the whole point, isn't it? Is responding after the fact to individual incidents of misuse of power really good enough, when those incidents keep happening? [ Thursday, July 06, 2006 21:25: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Azuma Velius Lifecrafter Member # 7252	written Thursday, July 6 2006 23:50 Profile #138 so being a loyalist is the only way of restoring justice..when rebels become the supreme rulers..chaos will sure follow..i should know..i live in PH..and the loyalists already know the mistakes they have done..though some of them abuse their power..its just a matter of self control.. nothing more nothing less.. -------------------- Oh you're a cute Adze-Haakai you are.. Posts: 732 \| Registered: Saturday, June 24 2006 07:00
Alex Lifecrafter Member # 59	written Friday, July 7 2006 02:44 Profile #139 OMG 23 FPS at 1024x768! :eek: 28 USD, up from 25 USD! :eek: Actually, I'll definitely download the demo, and probably register. Posts: 950 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Major Warrior Member # 7067	written Sunday, July 9 2006 13:56 Profile #140 quote: But they weren't, and it did. That's the whole point, isn't it? Is responding after the fact to individual incidents of misuse of power really good enough, when those incidents keep happening? Step back and look. If you wanted to practice some illegal magic would you do it in a big city or some place that's out of the way. So you won't get questioned? When you think about it that way suddenly your looking at a much larger space for some one to want to do something illegal. But the main question is that would the rebels do any better? I think not. For a simple reason. It would be a broken up place. Eyebeasts and gazors revolting against the drakons. Greedy drakons taxing people too desolation which cause the shapers to grow by making them think that it was better under them with no large wars. Drayks and serviles seperating from the drakons upset because of oppression. Besides any petty quarrels that would arise. So, who would put down the few necromancers? [ Sunday, July 09, 2006 13:58: Message edited by: Major ] -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 \| Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Sunday, July 9 2006 22:29 Profile #141 The discussion is not about Rebels vs. Shapers, but about inconsistency between the long-term behavior of Shaper society as a whole, and official Shaper ideology. Whether or not the Rebels would do any better is irrelevant to this particular topic. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Retlaw May Shock Trooper Member # 7143	written Monday, July 10 2006 09:52 Profile #142 I would say that everything relating to G4 is relavent to this topic seeing that it is called "Wow (G4)". -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 \| Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Monday, July 10 2006 11:55 Profile #143 Not 'topic' as in the thread title; just the multi-post discussion/argument within it to which Major was replying. I wasn't faulting him for board etiquette, but criticizing the logic of his counter-argument to Thuryl. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Major Warrior Member # 7067	written Monday, July 10 2006 15:57 Profile #144 I was talking about long term. I couldn't "tell" you which faction would come uppermost. But, I'll give you a more accurate idea of what I think would happen in the long term if the rebels won. Basically countries would emerge each with their own flaws and good points. But, they would still war with each other. However, what would the shapers do? Well, if they won the war they would increase the rights of creations. Keep a closer watch on all magic users. And they would hopefully try to decrease they’re haughtiness to outsiders. Of course with the help of my character. :) -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 \| Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Monday, July 10 2006 23:47 Profile Homepage #145 What do you call the current situation if not war? Don't forget, the Shaper empire produced the rebels in the first place; what makes you think they won't keep on producing more? Our argument isn't that peace is a bad thing, or that the rebels are good; it's that the Shaper empire may well have been doomed from the start because its existence relies on power of a kind and magnitude that cannot help but corrupt those who wield it. The Shaper empire cannot refuse to use its power or it will be crushed by those within it who have no such scruples; and it cannot use it to its full potential, or it will become what it fights against. Basically, we're all screwed no matter who wins. For all the high words being said on both sides, the Rebels aren't really fighting against the Shapers' principles; they're the progress of the Shapers' knowledge and power carried to its logical conclusion. [ Monday, July 10, 2006 23:50: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
ReMeMbEr Agent Member # 6581	written Monday, July 10 2006 23:56 Profile Homepage #146 quote: Originally written by Thuryl: ...Shaper empire produced the rebels in the first place; what makes you think they won't keep on producing more? So a solution can be the integration? Shapers and Rebels, working together? Or is only an utopia? [ Tuesday, July 11, 2006 00:01: Message edited by: MagmaDragoon ] -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 \| Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Tuesday, July 11 2006 00:28 Profile Homepage #147 I doubt it. When all's said and done, the fundamental conflict between the two sides is that both of them want absolute power and only one of them can have it. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
ReMeMbEr Agent Member # 6581	written Tuesday, July 11 2006 01:42 Profile Homepage #148 I see. Then the Shaper's Empire cannot exist? Wait. (I'm thinking at the Romans Empire) Maybe the lack of the Shapers Empire is the lack of a strong and centralized power. Like an Emperor with great powers. In fact, there isn't King of Shapers, but a slow Council. (Exactly like Romans!) This can work; but the question is: for much time? I don't belive that a Empire like the Shaper's one can exist forever. So, the solution should be not definitive, but have to resolve the actually problems. This should be the ability of a Emperor. (Hope I'm clear and I haven't written foolishness. :) ) -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 \| Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Tuesday, July 11 2006 01:52 Profile Homepage #149 There's some truth in what you're saying. Remember Trajkov, who was able to stay at least moderately sane even after using the Geneforge? Whatever you may think of his principles, that fact alone made him an exceptional individual -- and the worse things get, the more I'm inclined to think it might have been better to just side with him in G1 after all. All the same, he was just one person, and still mortal even with all his power; there's no guarantee his replacement wouldn't be just as corrupt as the rebels we see today. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00