Announcement on the status of Scorpius and Ed Lemur
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Warrior
Member # 341
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 11:38
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C'mon guys, the 25 point programme was courteous and rational, I don't know what you have against this guy... In a normal, rational debate then I am quite accomodating, but I think when someone starts equating homosexuality to a disability that rational debate comes to an end. I also think politeness ends when somebody posts "Uhhh... yeah. Forgive me for completely ignoring that last post." I don't see anyone comparing Fundamentalist Christians to people with physical disability. My favourite part, however, was when David said "here's another example that very few people here are smart enough or mature enough to understand". Oh I'm sorry, maybe those on a higher plain of understanding could explain how I stupidly managed to interpret his post as 'fight the evil homosexuality inside you don't let it win'. Sure I was offensive, but David's post was far more so. His arguments are certainly not rational, and in my opinion being polite includes an awareness of the feelings of those around you, which his post seems to completely discount. Its nothing personal against you X, you seem to be a balanced kind of person, but I don't think David's position is particularly defensible. As Alorael said, the very fact that it led to people actually having to rationalise homosexuality it horrendous. How about I post "I think being black is like having a brain tumour", and we'll see how polite and courteous you are. -------------------- "This stolen joke proves I have a sense of humour!" "This tired old proverb proves I am profound" "This hyperlink to someone who doesn't know me proves I am popular!" Nothing like a bandwagon. Except maybe irony. Posts: 159 | Registered: Monday, December 3 2001 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 11:45
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He's being polite by his standards. By the standards of most of the rest of the posters, comparing homosexuality to being crippled and suggesting that a simple tale is something that is "probably too complex for most of you to understand" (or words to that effect) is a) patronising and b) offensive. Having said that, there's no point giving him ammunition. Jesus didn't intend to spread a message of prejudice. What he said was pretty socially liberal for the times, and even for today in some cases, but it doesn't entirely conform with modern thought. There are problems with the bible, and there are problems with Christianity. You're better off making your own objective decisions about what Jesus might do (even if it does make a terrible bumper sticker) than the holy texts intended for a tribal society nearly 3000 years ago. Had the likes of Ezra, whoever wrote Revelations and St Augustine been around today, I'm certain their views would be much less adhered to. Do what Jesus would do- burn your local bank down! Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 366
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 13:00
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Hey, even if homosexuality is a "sin", then according to the Bible all will be forgiven if you confess and pray for your soul (or words to that effect). We're all going to Heaven anyway, as long as we repent while we're on our deathbeds! Bring on the naked lesbians!!! -------------------- I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. I say let's evolve. Let the chips fall where they may. Posts: 1277 | Registered: Sunday, December 9 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 13:39
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That depends on the kind of Christianity you follow. Some don't believe in last-minute salvation. Some believe in predetermination, so you might as well sin all the time because you've already got your one-way ticket reserved. —Alorael, who has problems with the idea of a carrot and stick model of salvation. Yes, it gets the job done (if you agree with religious morality), but surely a more discerning divinity would have a more fair and rational justice system. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 14:44
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David, your story worries me because of your obvious fear of damnation. What kind of God do you believe in, who cannot love you as you are? A God who judges and damns does not deserve your trust. He is not worthy. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 15:13
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Oh man... listen, about ignoring ef's post, that wasn't because it dissed religion or something like that. If you want to know why, use the "search" feature, type in Scorp's member number, and try searching for the words "Now unplug it." Substitute that post for my first sentence, and you should be fine. As little offense as possible, ef. And about not being smart or mature enough to handle the example, you people proved my point very well. See, my example was not meant to compare gays to cripples, it was meant to show you that if you truly want to overcome something, you can. If you are gay, and you truly don't want to be gay, you don't have to be. That's my point. All of you, except probably X, missed that completely. It also bypasses the debate on whether or not you can be born gay, which I still don't think is so but doesn't matter in this case. Inquisition? I would respond with biting sarcasm, but I have to go mug some gay people, subject them to mental and physical torture, and top it all of with a combination of stoning and burning at the stake. EDIT: About forgivness, whoever said that about different sects and different beliefs was correct (I believe it was Alorael). My own personal belief is that you can be forgiven, but only if you are TRULY sorry. In other words, sitting there on your deathbed thinking erotic thought about another man's wife while shouting out I REPENT, FORGIVE ME GOD, I'M SORRY isn't going to cut it. [ Thursday, May 29, 2003 15:22: Message edited by: iDavid ] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 341
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 15:21
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quote:AAAAAAHHHH why is being gay something to overcome? Its not some kind of weakness or defect. It's not quitting smoking - Oh, I know I shouldn't be gay, but just one hot little peice of manflesh and then I promise I wont be gay all week. Why would anybody who is gay not want to be? Because of people like you. As for biting sarcasm? No. -------------------- "This stolen joke proves I have a sense of humour!" "This tired old proverb proves I am profound" "This hyperlink to someone who doesn't know me proves I am popular!" Nothing like a bandwagon. Except maybe irony. Posts: 159 | Registered: Monday, December 3 2001 08:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 15:24
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The conscious is a very malleable thing. The subconscious is not. The vast majority of gays "converted" by one program or another either were bisexual to begin with or uniformly suffer various forms of psychological damage. It's only natural, after all -- what would happen to you if some outside or inside force made you consider being attracted to women in any way "evil"? Imagine feeling like the world hated you every time you were to think any kind of fond thought about a person of the opposite sex, David, and you will know how horrifically cruel "converting" gay persons is. Also, whether it's expedient in hindsight or not, you WERE comparing homosexuality to being physically handicapped. We'd have more respect for you if you apologized for your nonsense than we do from you gagging and attempting in futility to backpedal. -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 15:27
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But you did offend me. Though that's not the point. The point is: why should a gay person wish to be heterosexual? -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 15:29
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Why would you want to??? WTH?? If you believe it is wrong, that's why you would want to. You think I had my beliefs forced on me? Believe me, my beliefs are my own. I believe in God, and I believe that He doesn't want humans to be gay. What reason would a non-believer have to try to overcome it? None at all, as far as I know. You missed my point once again, though I explained it very clearly. You can overcome homosexuality IF YOU WANT TO. IT'S YOUR CHOICE. If you need it explained more clearly still, you should go live as a hermit. Oh, and Alec, don't give me some crap about respect. The only thing that would make you even accept me is to give myself over wholly to your own beliefs, or grovel at you feet 24/7 until I weigh about 100 lbs from lack of food. I really don't even want your respect, but thanks for the suggestion :rolleyes: . [ Thursday, May 29, 2003 15:36: Message edited by: iDavid ] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 15:38
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I like precision, David. So everyone who does not believe that God abhors homosexuality is a non-believer? More precise, everyone who believes in a loving, accepting and acknowledging God is a non-believer? -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 341
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 15:41
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David, it is clear you have some unresolved personal issues. Please don't let your internal struggles, or any of your opinions at all, infringe on other people. Specifically us. -------------------- "This stolen joke proves I have a sense of humour!" "This tired old proverb proves I am profound" "This hyperlink to someone who doesn't know me proves I am popular!" Nothing like a bandwagon. Except maybe irony. Posts: 159 | Registered: Monday, December 3 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3026
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 16:00
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quote:Can you imagine trying desperately not to be heterosexual? You're in love with a kind, intelligent, beautiful girl who loves you back, and one day, you go up to them and say "Uh, Cheryl, you know what, I can't be hetero anymore 'cause of my religion, and it's hard, but listen, I cant go out with out with you or make love to you anymore and I'm going to go get meself a boyfriend. Okay? And by the way, I think you should convert to lesbianism yourself. It's your own choice, though, of course." Would you really do that? Even for your religion? Do you know what that would feel like? And that sentence about 'You can overcome homosexuality.' Overcome? Y'know David, you can overcome your beliefs about God. Maybe then you'll be more widely accepted by some of the people you hang out with. EDIT: By the way, I am gay and open about it. And, you know what? I hate the 'pity' and the stories about 'dealing with my orientation' far more than the insults by mindless imbeciles who don't even know what being homosexual means. It's people like you, David, who do know what it means but hide behind your Bibles or your upbringing and just repeat 'God/my parents say this is wrong' over and over again. [ Thursday, May 29, 2003 16:02: Message edited by: Akheva ] -------------------- And this was very odd because It was the middle of the night - Lewis Carrol well well well aren't we resilient Oh the fun Most generalizations are, unfortunately, true. Posts: 212 | Registered: Sunday, May 25 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 16:20
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Unresolved personal issues? Actaully, no. I seriously don't have any major problems, no more than the average person does. Unless maybe end-of-the-school-year stress is affecting me and I don't know it. Anyway... ef, I do believe in a kind and loving God. So tell me, is your definition of kind and loving something like "lets me do whatever"? Because I'd have to say a God who allows people to lie, steal, cheat, murder, etc. is not doing a very good job. Homosexuality is not as bad as murder, or theft, of course. Neither is fornification. But God created the perfect man, and a woman to go with him. He didn't create us with the ability to both fertilize and bear children; he created us as we are for a reason. It clearly says in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong; I believe this, I believe in the Bible, and I believe that homosexuality is wrong. I also believe that forcing people to be straight is wrong. I do not, however, think that our children should grow up with no ideals, no morals, except things they learn on their own. This last sentence is in response to something Alec said. I am going now, and may not be on tomorrow either. My head hurts, no this is not just an excuse to back down. Now that I think of it, maybe the stress is getting to me a bit... anyway I'll be back tomorrow or Saturday. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 16:46
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Your ignorance astounds me. I never said "no morals"; I believe in a moral code. I only said I didn't plan on raising them believing in God, as there is no difference between things of faith and things of fact at a young enough age. Please find me one Biblical reference to homosexuality which isn't a parable, a law for the Levites [the Levites are also disallowed from eating shellfish or wearing clothing of more than one fabric; sucks to be them], or the personal opinion of one of the Apostles, and I'll believe your opinion is justified. And if you tell me that it doesn't have to be in your version of the bible what was shoddily translated in the 16th century by the henchmen of a monarch with political objectives to be the will of God, I'll tell you that that kind of nonsense lead to the Crusades [which you apparently support even in hindsight!], the Reconquista, the Inquisition... {PS: If God didn't intend for it to happen, why did he create us both capable of doing it and capable of deriving pleasure from it? The prostate gland has no other reason to be a sexual response center.} [ Thursday, May 29, 2003 16:48: Message edited by: el presidente ] -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 16:51
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quote:As shocking as that may be for you, that is precisely my definition. A God who permits and forbids is a God who evokes fear. Love and fear do not go together. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1506
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 16:53
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quote:I don't see why it's bad at all. Theft, murder, etc. hurt someone else. Homosexuality hurts no one. I agree with ef--it seems your god (or God, whatever floats your boat) likes damning people to hell more than loving them. quote:I don't think I'm well-versed in the Bible enough to answer this with confidence, but BtI, ef, any others who are more read than I--isn't it very vague passages that condemn homosexuality? Not only that, but aren't these passages only in the Old Testament? quote:This is so against everything else you've said my brain hurts. And David, did you ever look at Djur's little link way back? Or did you forget the "The Bible is not sexist" argument you had? (One more note here--the Bible is a work that is seriously open to interpretation. I'm not trying to say that all Christians are sexist pigs. I'm saying that the people in the Bible were sexist.) Someone who wishes to be taken seriously will concede points that were incorrect, instead of ignoring things. Somewhat like I did for you some topics ago. -------------------- desperance.net -- Come on in, we don't bite. Well, I don't. Posts: 218 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 17:17
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Alec: "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." Romans 1:26-27 [ Thursday, May 29, 2003 17:18: Message edited by: Ramon Benitez ] -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 17:33
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quote:I'm pretty sure the message there condemns hubris, anyway. -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 17:52
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Right. Reading comprehension problems yet again. Anyways, this might be of interest: http://www.geocities.com/pharsea/UnPastoralCare.html -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 58
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 18:50
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quote:Well put, sir. I'd rather be bashed by a bunch of open-minded bigots than backstabbed by a two-faced lemming. As for changing who we love (sexuality isn't always about sex; sometimes love figures in there as well) is quite impossible. It's true for heterosexuals, why wouldn't it be true for others? Unless, of course homosexuality doesn't involve love. PS. By the way Alec, you were quite right about ef. I enjoy all her thoughtful posts, especially the slightly unconventional ones. They give me plenty of food for thought and a lot of hope. I concede a point to you, sir. And to ef, thanks. [ Thursday, May 29, 2003 19:01: Message edited by: Scales ] Posts: 286 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 366
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written Friday, May 30 2003 08:19
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It makes no difference whether the homosexuality involves love or not. You might get more pleasure from sleeping with someone of the same sex and have no feelings for them whatsoever....But that wasn't what I came here to say. On changing orientation... David, I'm fed up of being a 34AA. I'd quite like to have a D-cup. If I wish hard enough (and believe me, I've been doing it since I was 13!), do you think I could manage it? Or is wanting huge boobs a sin of vanity, and therefore not worthy?? I'd quite like to be taller than 5'0"....Do you think I could manage it if you all pray for me??? While you're at it....I weigh 94lbs, can you pray for 10lbs of fat to disappear from my bum and reappear on my chest? I'd be eternally grateful for your help. I just know you can do it if we all wish hard enough, just like the little cripple boy who made himself walk!!! (coughHAcough) By the way, I'm not a lesbian, and I'm not straight...I'm just greedy... -------------------- I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. I say let's evolve. Let the chips fall where they may. Posts: 1277 | Registered: Sunday, December 9 2001 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 39
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written Friday, May 30 2003 08:34
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As an aside, I've always wondered why all the short people I know wish they were taller. I'm 6'2'', myself, and I'm always wishing I was a good deal shorter. Also wondering about society's current obsession with large breasts. Back in the '20s, boyish was in. Then it was voluptuous, then it was thin, and now we've got this ludicrous obsession with women who are both thin and large-chested. What a load of crap. Some of the most attractive girls I know are a foot shorter than me and almost flat-chested. I also know extremely attractive girls who are taller than me and are extremely well-endowed. I don't think it matters, in the long run. Sexiness is 50% a state of mind and 50% in the eyes of the beholder, who probably has all sort of weird things he or she finds attractive. Not that it matters, coming from a 16-year-old computer geek, but I think lots of females (and males, actually) obsess way too much over their appearance. Makeup and all that. Not that I'm suggesting that any of you do that; I wouldn't know. Physical appearance definitely does matter, but in a different way. I've always thought that a girl needs to be not ugly enough that I can fall in love with their soul and mind -- and then their face will be the most beautiful thing in the world. Just a thought. -------------------- desperance.net - honestly, no biting. Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
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written Friday, May 30 2003 09:18
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Major problem I would have with being short: Short people tend to walk slower. I'm always hurrying nowhere in particular. I agree with the rest of Djur's post, but then I'm 16 and whilst I'm not a computer geek (technology hates me) I am a geek. David, do you believe Methuselah lived 969 years? Do you believe that, contrary to all available evidence, the earth was created around 6000 years ago, making Jericho twice as old as the rest of creation? If not, the bible is lying to you. For that matter, who are you to say whether we actually have the right bible now? The entire Old Testament only remains in the work because of a compromise Paul made with the Nazarene Christians to prevent Christianity becoming a Jewish sect. There are 65 books in the Pseudographica, 40 more in the New Testament Apocrypha and 14 in the Apocrypha, which may or may not belong. How can we decide that we should not use the Traditions of Matthias because of its Gnostic links, or the Shepherd of Hermas because 4th century scholars happened to dislike it, or the Apocalypse of Peter because it was Eastern-influenced. I can go on, and am prepared to do so if you wish (I'm very interested in the scriptures which didn't make the cut.) The point I'm making is that we've lost and gained books over the years due to persecution, the ravages of nature and political scheming from Paul to Constantine. Had things turned out differently, you might consider Leviticus an exclusively Jewish text. Oh, and if you can't be bothered to read this post, may I ask you to give up the argument, since that would mean you aren't capable of sustaining it against all inquiries. Same for any other posts by anyone else. Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Friday, May 30 2003 09:28
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I agree with Djur, except that I am not tall. And as for wearing makeup, the idea of kissing someone wearing makeup feels vaguely disgusting to me. (By "disgusting" I naturally mean that I don't like the idea of doing it myself, not that I object to others doing so) -------------------- Grammar wenches beware: This is the house that the malt that the rat that the cat that the dog that the cow that the maiden that the man that the priest that the cock that the farmer kept waked married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in. My Website desperance.net - Leave your sanity at the door Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |