Announcement on the status of Scorpius and Ed Lemur
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, May 26 2003 14:38
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People are still discussing, and more or less politely at that. No reason for topic death now. I think you can twist the words of the Bible to say pretty much whatever you want to hear, and since translations and transcriptions have involved this twisting for several millenia it's inevitable that we're on the receiving end of so much religious propaganda. —Alorael, who is sure that any book that can prove the Bible's legitimacy has gaping holes in its logic or premises. These holes will only be visible to non-believers, of course. That's the way things work when you try to rationalize faith. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Monday, May 26 2003 15:12
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Ugh. First of all, Hawkgirl, I'm sure if Moses lived today he would consider women equal to men in every way. I certainly do. The Bible is not a sexist, racist work, no matter how you choose to look at it. I was just explaining to them where the women came from, and why there were very few mentioned. I don't think that they were any less important, but in a patriarchal society, I'd say the names of men were more important (descendants of the man Levi were called Levites, etc) not necessarily the men themselves. Second, Alorael, I said "could probably" for just that reason. I guess substituting "most" for "all" wooud have been better, but... now you know. Believe me, the Bible can be proven correct, even if not just in one book (not one without many, many pages, anyway). -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1506
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written Monday, May 26 2003 15:16
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"Ugh. First of all, Hawkgirl, I'm sure if Moses lived today he would consider women equal to men in every way. I certainly do." Um, David, that's why I said "I have no particular problem with the Bible." Sorry to disappoint you. The Bible is sexist though. Have fun arguing with Djur's link there. [ Monday, May 26, 2003 15:20: Message edited by: Hawkgirl ] -------------------- desperance.net -- Come on in, we don't bite. Well, I don't. Posts: 218 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 39
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written Monday, May 26 2003 15:17
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http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/women_list.html -------------------- desperance.net - honestly, no biting. Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 14
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written Monday, May 26 2003 15:20
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Why should this topic be locked? And anywho, Ruth: Why do you say people just are or aren't gay? Who says it's not a conscious choice? -------------------- Dragyn Bob "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here!"-The Divine Comedy Posts: 1481 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1506
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written Monday, May 26 2003 15:28
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I don't think it's a conscious choice. I never decided at any one point to like boys or to like girls. I just did. In any case, it's none of anyone's business unless they're sleeping with me. I should be able to do what I want so long as I don't hurt others or infringe on their rights. -------------------- desperance.net -- Come on in, we don't bite. Well, I don't. Posts: 218 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Monday, May 26 2003 16:37
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David- Not as if I try to keep passages like these in the bible, but I believe that JC calls a non-Jewish believer who comes for healing a dog and gives her what he refers to as table scraps. -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 366
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 04:39
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Dragyn, do you honestly think it's possible just to go out one day and think, "oh, I'm going to fancy that rich man over there today", or "that woman has nice boobs, I'm going to be straight today"??? I agree when I was younger everyone wanted to fit in so the gay people would pretend to be straight, but it didn't mean they actually were. You can't just pick and choose who you fall for to make life more convenient for yourself. -------------------- I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. I say let's evolve. Let the chips fall where they may. Posts: 1277 | Registered: Sunday, December 9 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1169
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 11:51
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Yeah. Ever heard the phrase "I chose to be gay the same day you chose to be straight?" Homophobes are really pissing me off today. I mean, not that they don't annoy me all the time, but today I'm feeling especially ungenerous towards them. I know that it's not a conscious choice because I happen to be bisexual. Therefore, I'm half lesbian, and can speak for the lesbian side of my personality. I didn't choose to like girls. It took me a while to realize that I was bi, but that didn't mean I wasn't bi all along. I just didn't realize that my having crushes on girls in middle school made me bisexual until I was old enough to appreciate the meaning of the word and think "Hey, that applies to me; I like girls and guys equally." That's the way it is. Obviously, when you're a little kid and you don't know what the word "gay" means, you aren't going to think it applies to you. Later, in middle or high school, when you feel yourself becoming attracted to people of the same sex, you realize it--you don't "become" gay, and there's no "conscious choice" involved. DB, since you're displaying your ignorance of how this works, I'm going to assume that you're straight. When did you "decide" to start liking girls? What was your first crush like? Did you think, "Okay, I've decided that I want to be straight, and I'm going to like a girl." And voila, you liked girls. Or did you simply start to realize your feelings for one person, whether you wanted to like them or not? To sum up, gay people don't choose to be gay any more than straight people choose to be straight. It just happens. And because there's no choice involved, how can it be wrong? It's involuntary. -------------------- "Man hands down misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, and don't have any kids yourself."--Philip Larkin, "This Be the Verse" Fear the wrath of the Grammar Wench, lest ye be cut down by the Glistening Scythe. Posts: 1150 | Registered: Friday, May 17 2002 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 12:12
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David, do you know what the punishment for a man raping an unmarried woman should be, according to the Bible? He has to marry her. Her opinion on this, of course, doesn't matter. (Deut 22:28-9) Not sexist at all, is it? -------------------- Grammar wenches beware: This is the house that the malt that the rat that the cat that the dog that the cow that the maiden that the man that the priest that the cock that the farmer kept waked married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in. My Website desperance.net - Leave your sanity at the door Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1169
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 12:24
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Not to mention the fact that Jesus talks about slavery like it's a perfectly natural thing, and that when people are being bought as slaves, a woman is only worth 60% of what a man is worth. No, the Bible certainly isn't racist or sexist. The Bible was written by a bunch of imperfect men who contradict each other and reflect the opinion of the times. There's nothing divine about it. Besides, times have changed. It was okay to sell your daughter into slavery then, but it sure isn't now. Likewise, the opinion of the times dictated that homosexuality was a bad thing, but times have changed. -------------------- "Man hands down misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, and don't have any kids yourself."--Philip Larkin, "This Be the Verse" Fear the wrath of the Grammar Wench, lest ye be cut down by the Glistening Scythe. Posts: 1150 | Registered: Friday, May 17 2002 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 14:14
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Religions, as we know them in the west, are connected with patriarchic power patterns and show these patterns in their institutions. They are originally spiritual movements that have become hierarchic and centralistic with priests who alone know and teach the "true" word of God. Current archeology (Maria Gimbutas, Heide Göttner-Abendroth) shows that they were predeceded by matrilinear societies which had not known such institutionalization. Their spirituality refered to the everyday experience of nature and communication with beings and things, which all represented divine energy. Meaning that those societies did not know faith. You need faith only to believe in something that you cannot see, prove, touch or recognize yourself. That is also interesting insofar, as those communities did not look upon nature as an object that could be studied, controlled and used, instead had an I - You relationship with their environment on a very subjective and personal level. Many of our current problems are due to our lost capability to interrelate in a similar fashion, to our tendency to turn everything into objects for study, judgement or control: nature, nations, people who think differently, believers, nonbelievers, etc. I have that precious utopy that the best of both worlds may somewhen try a synthesis. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 15:30
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Uhhh... yeah. Forgive me for completely ignoring that last post. As for conscious choice, I don't know if it's so much conscious choice as... well, here's another example that very few people here are smart enough or mature enough to understand. I'm sure at least some of you have heard the story about the boy who was born with a shriveled leg, and who was told that he would never be able to walk. That's how he was born, with that problem. But he wanted to be able to walk very badly, so he would wheel himself out to his back yard, hold himself up, and walk on both legs like that, leaning against a fence. Eventually he could walk, but he wasn't content with that; he tried harder and harder, until he could jog, then run. This little boy grew up to be an Olympic runner; he even won the gold medal in one race. It wasn't his choice to be born a cripple; it was, however, his choice to ignore the people telling him not to try, that that was just the way he was, and in doing so, to succeed so well. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 39
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 15:48
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The Sir David Post Template! (Ignore all previous posts if you disagree) (Say something obfuscated that ends up being offensive if anyone bothers to read it) --- I love how you compared homosexuals to cripples there. Good job. Hawkie said, and I agree, that you're the cripple. If I can control my sexual orientation just for the sake of some old book and finger-waggers, I think you can control your massive bigotry and ignorance. [ Tuesday, May 27, 2003 15:50: Message edited by: M. Boeh ] -------------------- desperance.net - honestly, no biting. Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 16:14
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David, do you realize, that there is more than a touch of inquisition at the root of your post? -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 16:48
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The difference is that being crippled genuinely makes your life more difficult. I don't think anyone would want it. Being homosexual makes absolutely no difference in your life besides who you fall in love with and who decides to hate you because of that. Nobody told that cripple that he was bad for being born crippled. He chose to walk for himself, nobody chose for him. —Alorael, who can't believe he's even arguing this. The entire premise is not only wrong but disgusting. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 341
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 16:50
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quote:Therin lies the problem. -------------------- "This stolen joke proves I have a sense of humour!" "This tired old proverb proves I am profound" "This hyperlink to someone who doesn't know me proves I am popular!" Nothing like a bandwagon. Except maybe irony. Posts: 159 | Registered: Monday, December 3 2001 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 39
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 17:49
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Definitely. By the way, you quoting ef like that made me have to fight back an urge to post Flaming Lips lyrics. -------------------- desperance.net - honestly, no biting. Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 341
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 18:21
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OMGshift1shift1shift1111 That exact same thing happened to me just now! Except replace "You quoting ef like that" with "Me reading David's post", and "post Flaming Lips lyrics" with "vomit up my own soul". What a crazy world. -------------------- "This stolen joke proves I have a sense of humour!" "This tired old proverb proves I am profound" "This hyperlink to someone who doesn't know me proves I am popular!" Nothing like a bandwagon. Except maybe irony. Posts: 159 | Registered: Monday, December 3 2001 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 39
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written Tuesday, May 27 2003 18:41
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*chuckles* You are a person after my own heart. -------------------- desperance.net - honestly, no biting. Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Wednesday, May 28 2003 03:32
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So what, hypothetically speaking, if people choose to be gay? Or choose to experiment sexually with bondage gear, shoes, blow-up GW Bushes, or whatever? Why is that anyone's business but their own, if not because it makes them an object of arbitrary prejudice, which is really someone else's problem? I might add that though laws againt so-called sexual deviance might have been harsh in previous centuries, typically they were only used as an add-on in accusations of doctrinal unorthodoxy, more as offences to God than Nature (as if any sexual act is strictly 'unnatural' anyway!) and people tended to do as they pleased as long as they didn't make an issue of it (i.e. their faith rather than their sexuality was consiered key in defining their identity). As to a 'normal' sexuality, check out anthropologies like Malinovski's venerable 'Sexual Life of Savages' for what is approved of in other societies and the perceptive reader will pretty soon be asking what all the fuss is about... Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 341
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written Wednesday, May 28 2003 03:49
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Djur darling, your heart is second on my list, right after David's, which i would like torn out through his mouth and presented to me on a cushion of broken glass. -------------------- "This stolen joke proves I have a sense of humour!" "This tired old proverb proves I am profound" "This hyperlink to someone who doesn't know me proves I am popular!" Nothing like a bandwagon. Except maybe irony. Posts: 159 | Registered: Monday, December 3 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 366
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written Wednesday, May 28 2003 05:20
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Everyone can choose whether they act on any feelings they might have, but no-one can choose which feelings turn up in the first place. To be honest, I'm disgusted at some of the things I'm reading on these boards. Quote the bible to me as often as you like, but if I want to sleep with a woman then I'll sleep with a woman and damn what the rest of you all think. As long as I don't post the video on the internet no-one would ever know unless I told them anyway. "The Bible is not a sexist, racist work, no matter how you choose to look at it. " Ha! "And anywho, Ruth: Why do you say people just are or aren't gay? Who says it's not a conscious choice?" HA! "All David's cripple post" HAHA!!! Am going to go and vomit at the ignorance... -------------------- I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. I say let's evolve. Let the chips fall where they may. Posts: 1277 | Registered: Sunday, December 9 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 1823
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written Wednesday, May 28 2003 08:20
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"The Bible is not a sexist, racist work, no matter how you choose to look at it. " Correction: "The Bible is not a sexist, racist work, in probably most of the many ways you can look at it. " The thing is, in some of the ways you can llok at it, you can look at it in ways that say: "Kill all non-Christians" - I'm sure mosty of you are familiar with thetencommandments.com "Do whatever you like - it doesn't matter" - Someone could draw these inferences from some of Paul's letters. Et Cetera. --- And, a bit late, on the topic of Genesis - I'm fairly sure Adam is pretty similar to the word "man" - meaning perhaps that Adam, was not one man, but Man. The same goes with many names in Genesis, possibly referring to stages in Man's developement/evolution. -------------------- Riot Shields Voodoo Economics It's just business Cattle prods And the IMF I trust I can rely on your vote Posts: 530 | Registered: Sunday, September 1 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Thursday, May 29 2003 10:58
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wychenthal: iDavid is being polite and trying hard to argue rationally, rather than giving in to his inner Oral Roberts and ranting madly about hellfire and bodily pollution. You should show similar courtesy, however frustrated you are by him and however strongly you feel about your own arguments. :( Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |