Announcement on the status of Scorpius and Ed Lemur
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 02:33
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I'm prepared to accept the bible as the literal word of God. It defies the rule that sequels get proportionately worse as time goes on, since the best book are nearer the end. That suggests divine nature. On the other hand, if I accept that, I also have to accept that in Genesis God really hadn't got the hang of writing yet. The whole story of Cain and Abel is inadequately explained, Genesis 4 and 14 are mind wateringly dull and any publisher would have thrown it in the bin. Then there's Numbers, or as it should be called the book of Accountants. The question is whether you want a god who writes terrible prose, or a holy work which may have been influenced by the prejudices of the writers. I agree with Ed. The survey that says that intensely homophobic men are much more likely to get erections from watching gay porn than those who are more relaxed about homosexuality is a brilliant one to quote. People tend to look very frightened for a moment then call you a fag or similar. But you've planted the seed of doubt, so they tend to think twice. I think Dave, you will also notice that RoR was not talking about people who feel uncomfortable with homosexuality. She was talking about people who use gay as an insult. Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 02:53
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The trouble starts right at the beginning of Genesis. "God" is a translation of "elohim" which is the plural form of "eloha". "eloha" meaning "God", "elohim" meaning "Gods" and also sometimes "The supreme God". But you cannot have a supreme God without having lesser Gods. So this seems to point to a time where a pantheon of gods still existed. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1169
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 05:42
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Mangophobia means "fear of mangos." DUH. Sir David, by saying that homosexuality is wrong, you are telling homosexuals that their love is not as legitimate as heterosexual love. You are harming homosexuals with your beliefs by implying that they are inferior to heterosexuals, and that's wrong. Homosexual love is every bit as real and legitimate as heterosexual love. I have many, many gay friends whom I have seen in loving, committed relationships and who are hurt by the kind of viewpoint you're expressing because people who share your beliefs throw things at them and call them nasty names and vandalize their cars and so on. I'm not saying you yourself do this, but a lot of people who share your views on homosexuality do. 16% of all hate crimes are committed against homosexuals, and a good 75% of those are religiously motivated. [ Sunday, May 25, 2003 05:46: Message edited by: Mangophobia ] -------------------- "Man hands down misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, and don't have any kids yourself."--Philip Larkin, "This Be the Verse" Fear the wrath of the Grammar Wench, lest ye be cut down by the Glistening Scythe. Posts: 1150 | Registered: Friday, May 17 2002 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 09:00
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Yeah, I'll just ignore Alec, Djur (who I thought was leaving... don't make me so hopeful and then blow it all) and the rest of them. RoR, I can assure you that I do not do that (yes, I know you didn't say I do). I think that that kind of response is wrong, and that in trying to end sin, these people are themselves sinning, and the evil of their actions far outweighs any good intentions they might have had. I am sad that a lot of people hate gays because they are different, or because society taught them that, or something. Believe me, I am not like that. Also, I try to love the sinner, hate the sin as much as possible. BTW, that still doesn't answer my second question (about mangos), WTH? -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 09:03
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You know, David, if you're wearing polycotton right now, you're committing an abomination in the eyes of God. -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 11:12
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Odd how the Bible bans same-sex sex but not mother-son sex - or where did everyone come from if not from Eve + Cain or Abel? Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 11:25
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Why is that blown so out of proportion? I mean, it made sense when that small nomadic tribe put a ban on homosexuality, as they probably needed children and infant mortality was high. No great surprise that the priests came up with a ban to ensure survival. But thousands of years afterwards, should not our changed circumstances be taken into consideration? X, Adam had a first wife, Lilith. [ Sunday, May 25, 2003 11:30: Message edited by: ef ] -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 11:51
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What about Noah and his two daughters? -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 12:18
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Where does Lilith appear in the Bible? She's not anywhere in the first few chapters of Genesis as far as I can tell. —Alorael, who is sure mangophobia is directed at Drakey, whose unholy passion for fruit (and passionfruit) is probably a sin. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 12:24
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Lilith was in one of the two original creation myths that ended up in the Bible. I can't remember much about her (it was a long time ago) but I think she was demonish, or something. -------------------- Grammar wenches beware: This is the house that the malt that the rat that the cat that the dog that the cow that the maiden that the man that the priest that the cock that the farmer kept waked married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in. My Website desperance.net - Leave your sanity at the door Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Sunday, May 25 2003 13:15
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The tale of Lilith originates in a medieval work called "the Alphabet of Ben-Sira," a work whose relationship to the conventional streams of Judaism is, to say the least, problematic. The difficulty with Genesis I and II is that they are two different creation myths. As far as we know, Genesis II derived from sumerian origins, while Genesis I was added later (around 700 BC) by the Hebrew Priesthood. There are references to demonic creatures called Lili or Lilu in the sumerian traditions, but the full story of Lilith comes from Ben-Sira (somewhen between 600 and 1000 AC). Liliths notorious fame is due to her insistence on being equal to Adam (won't go into details here). When Adam protested, she went to the Lord God, got his secret name out of him, and calling that out loud, was able to leave the Garden Eden. Though enforcer angels were sent after her to bring her back (Adam had started to miss her), her threat of harming women in childbed was dire enough for the Lord to decide to let her be. [ Sunday, May 25, 2003 13:44: Message edited by: ef ] -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
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written Monday, May 26 2003 09:04
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Also, Adam had daughters too. Granted, sister-brother incest is no better than mother-son incest, but there's more than one way to skin a cat. Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Monday, May 26 2003 09:16
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Who's saying that's wrong? Hell, who's saying that any act of sexual "deviancy" is wrong? -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Monday, May 26 2003 09:32
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A species as genetically complex as humans cannot propagate itself from 2 members, nor can most species. And if they could do it once, they most certainly couldn't do it twice. Genesis reeks of myths written by a society with no clear concept of inbreeding. -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Monday, May 26 2003 09:37
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But Alec, God's woo-hoo sparkley magical holiness ka-plow powars(™) can change all of that. Who needs science, when one can delude one's self into Jesus? -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 14
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written Monday, May 26 2003 09:42
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If the whole world but Noah's family drowned in the great flood, why is Genesis even there? Wouldn't that make Noah the father of present humanity, even if he is descended from those two ultimately? -------------------- Dragyn Bob "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here!"-The Divine Comedy Posts: 1481 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 366
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written Monday, May 26 2003 10:47
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Incest is disgusting. The Bible is a good storybook but not much else. Homosexuality is great if you can get it. Homophobics need a good kicking. Jesus existed, but was not the son of God. -These are just my humble opinions and are not intended to offend in any way- -------------------- I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. I say let's evolve. Let the chips fall where they may. Posts: 1277 | Registered: Sunday, December 9 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Monday, May 26 2003 11:11
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quote:from www.lilitu.com/lilith: Explanation number one is perhaps the best—Qabalistically speaking. As we know, Adam was created to perfection. He was created in the perfect image of "Elohim." Of course, God is not seen as being either male or female, but as both at once. Even the Name Elohim is a feminine word (Eloah—Goddess) with a masculine plural suffix. Thus, if God is male and female, the mother and the father, then Adam (which translates as "Mankind") must also have originally been male and female in one. To be otherwise would have been to be unbalanced, and thus imperfect. And thus was Adam's perfection, said to be even greater than the Angels. In fact, in this view, Adam was not a human at all—but a Cosmic Being known as Adam Kadmon. He was the Archetype upon which humans would later be based. Now, enters the passages from Genesis II. Just as the Unity of God was divided in two (the separation of the Waters by the Firmament) to create the Universe, so too was mankind created by the separation of the Archetypal Man into "its" two halves—male and female. Thus, woman was separated from man, and Adam Kadmon became an unbalanced creature—a human. This imperfection finally led to the Fall, the manifestation of the Human Race from Archetypal to the Actual. The woman was called Eve, which literally translates as "Life." Mankind was given Life, and the rest is history. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Monday, May 26 2003 11:20
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Actually, women were generally not recorded at the time the Bible was written. Of course, if they were significant, they were included, but... well, not to compare women to cats, but think of it as putting someone's pet cat in a history book today. As for the legitimacy of the Bible, I have a book somewhere that can probably answer all of your questions by itself. Last time I looked I couldn't find it, though... I'll run through all the bookcases in my house again and see if I can find it this time. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1506
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written Monday, May 26 2003 12:58
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Good to know the Bible declares me an idiot just because I don't have enough genitals. *seething rage* Sorry, this is one of the few topics that really gets me angry. -------------------- desperance.net -- Come on in, we don't bite. Well, I don't. Posts: 218 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 39
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written Monday, May 26 2003 13:06
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David, babe, it was the power of love that brought me back. Here to preach the word of tolerance and respect, honeybunch. It doesn't hurt you if I choose to stick my johnson in some guy, does it? Not at all. You wouldn't even know, would you? Also, sweetkins, why's it up to you to decide what's a sin and what isn't? Wasn't it the Big JC himself who said "JUDGE NOT LEST YE BE JUDGED?" Why don't you take care of your immortal soul, and I will take care of mine, hm, dearie? Why don't you leave the judgement to God and just allow people to live peaceful lives the way they choose? Why must you be such a harpy about it? -------------------- desperance.net - honestly, no biting. Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 366
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written Monday, May 26 2003 13:16
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I'm sure the world would be a much happier place if we could choose who we fell in love with or were attracted to, but as it is, we can't. Since we really don't have a choice in the matter then why all the gay-bashing in the world? It's like discriminating against someone because of their height or hair colour... ---Newsflash--- WE CAN'T HELP WHO WE FALL FOR!!! I'd rather be in a happy lesbian relationship than an unhappy straight one, even if the rest of the world had a problem with it. Gay relationships are no more or less stable than any other relationship, and since people should keep their nose out anyway nobody should be in the least bit bothered what goes on behind closed doors. I'm sure everyone has far more important things to worry about. -------------------- I say never be complete. I say stop being perfect. I say let's evolve. Let the chips fall where they may. Posts: 1277 | Registered: Sunday, December 9 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Monday, May 26 2003 13:42
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David, we probably would not agree on the meaning of the word 'legitimacy'. Though the bible is decidedly patriarchal, my version seems to be very different from yours. Hawkgirl: Do you know, why Lilith left Adam? It was because she didn't agree with the 'missionary position'. I'm quite serious here. As to Genesis it may perhaps be of interest that the serpent was worshipped in Palestine long before Jahwe. The early Hebrews participated in that cult, their priests called themselves "Sons of the great Serpent Leviathan". The Leviathan was worshipped together with his Goddess, "the Moon". Hebrew coins from the first and second centaury before Christ still show Jahwe as a serpent-god. It is also interesting that the persian "pairidaeza" (paradise) was a miraculous garden, in which the tree of life grew with its fruits of immortality. The hebrew word "pardes" means "garden" and has the same root. But "pairidaeza" was also the divine virgin, who gave birth to the divine child - the persian variation of the egyptian Isis (Horuschild) and the biblical Mary. That double vision of the paradise as a garden and the garden as the female body can be found in the symbolism of many religions. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 1506
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written Monday, May 26 2003 14:03
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I'm not sure exactly why you mentioned that, ef, but I find myself on Lilith's side. To make myself clearer: I don't have a particular problem with the Bible. I have a major problem with prejudice against people solely on the basis of their sex. [ Monday, May 26, 2003 14:04: Message edited by: Hawkgirl ] -------------------- desperance.net -- Come on in, we don't bite. Well, I don't. Posts: 218 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Monday, May 26 2003 14:22
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I belive it's time this topic was locked. Who really cares. -------------------- VCH VCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop attacking Cloutier!! Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |