Do you think there is a Hell?
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BANNED
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written Monday, April 11 2005 16:34
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Alec, this is very related to your point, just in more Christly rhetoric. I'm going to borrow from Kushner, a Rabbi whose ideas (within the context of modern liberal democracy christianity) make a good deal of sense. Let me first posit that you yourself do not and cannot believe this. There is no solice in knowing that your extreme suffering has a "purpose." Did six million jews have to die to teach us that killing is bad? (And honestly, if that's in god's plan, then his plan bites hard- I suppose 24 hours is too many for a baby with an instantly fatal disease?) When you grow up and have children and one of them gets leukemia, you will not be able to believe the same dry, soulless words you're spouting off here. Honestly, it's a little offensive to people who had lost loved ones. In the book of Job, there are three suppositions made about Job, only two of which can logically be true. Let me outline them: 1) Job is a good person. 2) God is just. 3) God is omnipotent. ---- I will go through the three scenarios in turn. 1) Job is not a good person. If god is just and can act in all instances, then any misfortune which falls upon all human beings is 100% deserved, as point three assumes that god is 100% omnipotent. Therefore, Job is not a good person. This sounds ridiculous, but it isn't. In fact, often times, people hide their suffering to protect their own moral integrity at face value. We live in a society that values its individuals by their respective abilities to produce and be prosperous. How do you think Job felt when his friends told him that he had it coming and left him to rot? (And note that this is a phenomenon exclusive to the first world- any third world christian would tell you immediately that this first assumption is easily debunked.) 2) God is unjust. If god is active 100% of the time and Job is a good human being, then any punishment which befalls him is because god is punishing randomly and being very unGodly. 3) God is not omnipotent. It has to be so. The book of Job clearly states that Job is a good man and it can also be reasonably assumed that god is just, and therefore the only assumed that god is not omnipotent. Suffering happens to the good, and god lets it happen- assuming that he can. The Jews are not evil, nor did god support the Nazis. He was on the side of those being killed. It's like I said before. Christ has no hands but ours. (And as an aside, if your main argument is "Christians suffer less from lethal diseases," then it is either totally baseless or stated, or verifiable due to the emotional stability granted by the child's religion due to the people who taught her/him.) ---- EDIT: And yes, that's my point. When god becomes a doling machine for free christian goodies, religion becomes a cruel joke. If being christian means being rich, not feeling pain, etc., not only does god become subject to man's whims, but it's an exploitative relationship rather than a loving one. (Ooh- I wonder if you know about the LIFE dichotomy? But that's obscure catholic doctrine for another day.) Put blunty, if god intercedes on the behalf of the faithful, religion becomes a shopping network for divine lewt. [ Monday, April 11, 2005 16:37: Message edited by: Le Martyre de la Terreur ] -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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The Establishment
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written Monday, April 11 2005 16:48
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quote:As I have said before, medical tests have an error rate associated with them. What is the success/failure rate of the diagnostic procedures used? What was the nature and extent of the "heart blockage"? The term in and of itself is very vague: was it a clot, foreign object, arterial buildup? These are very important as it determines the actual chance that a "miracle" occurred. If the success rate of the test was 80% and the "heart blockage" itself was transient having a 10% chance of self-removal in 24 hours, the fact that it didn't exist later on is not that surprising. The point is Ben, you need to be very quantitative when describing events. If there is a very significant probability for no explanation other than a miracle, then we would be more inclined to believe. But until you give some measure, we cannot determine. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Monday, April 11 2005 16:53
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That is why I never fallowed Christianity. None of it seems right. If everyone sins, and Jesus died so our sins would be forgiven, why do people suffer so much? People who go to church every Sunday, pray before every meal and every night, give to charity, and raise god fearing children still can have painful lives. And people who do awful things can live blissful lives. Please don't tell me these people suffer due to free will. This is not always the case. Children can be born to abusive families, or grow up with no food. Is that God's will as well? I simply don't understand how the tradition outlook on God can nonsense such things away. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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BANNED
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written Monday, April 11 2005 17:54
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God could come in and make everything right- but then loving god would not be a voluntary action, it would become mandatory. (Which goes nowhere to explain the OT, but there's a whole slew of issues with that thing.) -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, April 11 2005 18:32
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If God fixed everything, free will would be trivial. I'm not so sure why we assume free will, though, since an omnisicient and omnipotent God would make much more sense in a clockwork universe. In fact, it could explain the inexplicable bad things happening to good people, too. We're all just puppets, and what happens to us is for the good of the play. Or whatever metaphor you prefer. Ignoring the dichotomy between omniscience, including the future, and free will, I have to say that TM is right. There's no good way to justify the bad things that happen. Maybe it is all according to God's will, and maybe it is all for the better. But that's loss of free will again, isn't it? If God plays with us, why don't we just give up and concede that not only does he have all the advantages, we don't even understand the rules? The only thing that makes any sense at all is that God doesn't intervene all the time. That could go under non-omnipotent or non-good God, but it could also be considered a kind of patronizing view. God could do everything, but we get our chance to make things work or screw up for ourselves. You can argue that that's not good either, but even parents let their kids go live their own lives eventually. God does the same. Going back to the original question (well, a previous question), though, doesn't this non-inteference policy mean miracles don't happen? I'd say yes, mostly. Maybe there's some incomprehensible formula governing when God may intervene. Prayer might be a factor. So might magnitude of action and effect. Holding up the falling piano over the head of the baby is too Biblical for modern times, but maybe on the quantum uncertainty level God is allowed to fudge with the numbers and have the wind swing the piano on its rope so that it knocks the baby out of the way on its way down. —Alorael, who puts God's policies on his list of things to figure out post-mortem. People have been arguing since they had a language to do it in and have no consensus yet. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Tuesday, April 12 2005 10:43
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I wasn't gone that long was I? quote:Because the Bible tells me to and I believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. Romans 12:2 "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is - His good, pleasing and perfect will." “If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him” (James 1:5). “Be still before the Lord and wait patiently for Him…” (Psalm 37:7). “…Show me the way I should go, for to You I lift up my soul” (Psalm 143:8) “Guide me in Your truth and teach me…” (Psalm 25:5) These verses not only tell me that I can know God's will (at least in part), but also that I should seek God's will by asking him to reveal it to me. No one knows the entirety of his will but it is easy enough for us to know snippets of it as he reveals it to us. quote:Because God is a personal God who will deal with people on an individual basis. Perhaps realizing that God is willing to help you with such a trivial task as finding your keys leads you to be grateful, so grateful that you decide to devote your life to foreign missions. So you move to a third world country where thousands of children starve to death every day and minister to them as you are able and you change their lives in doing so. I do not mourn very much for the child who starves to death. Let me tell you why before you call me heartless. That child will never suffer again, will never hunger again, will never thirst again, will never be cold or sick or alone ever again because s/he has a place prepared for him/her in Heaven. The table is already set with the feast they will now enjoy that they did not get to enjoy in life. quote:I have a very nice illistration written by John Fischer about this. "I had a hummingbird trapped in my dining room today. I cranked the windows wide open and waited for the bird to fly out but nothing doing. I even tried to shoo it out waving my arms but that didn’t work either. The problem was, every time the bird would try and fly, its instincts told it to fly upwards, so it would skate all over the ceiling, buzzing its wings furiously against it, chirping all the way until it would tire and come to rest on the curtain over the window or the light fixture. I left it alone for a while to see if it would eventually discover the open windows, but each time it took off to fly, it flew upwards and skated on the ceiling like before. It was frustrating — almost tragic — to watch it sit over the open window, catching its breath, oblivious to the fact that freedom lay only a few inches below. I finally succeeded in freeing it by literally sweeping the hummingbird off the ceiling with a broom. It took a number of tries, and it hit the window on the way out, but it flew off unharmed. All the while I was doing this, I was trying to imagine what it would be like if I were that bird. I am aware that I am trapped, and I am trying to free myself the only way I know how, when this very large figure comes after me. I have absolutely no way of knowing that this giant thing, swatting at me with a broom, wants what is best for me; indeed, he is the only one who can set me free. And then this creature sweeps me off the ceiling and slams me into this invisible barrier, and it is only then, in my attempt to recover from that trauma, that I find I am suddenly free. Is this not what happens to us with God? He throws some pretty scary stuff at us, and it’s hard to believe He has our best interests at heart. He may even be telling us to fly down, but we don’t hear Him, so He brings something into our lives that forces us down, and only then do we find that down was the way out. What we have that the bird doesn’t have is a word from God that He is in control. Everything happening to us is happening for a purpose and we will see it someday, but in the meantime, it is for us to trust, and take what He sends our way as coming from His hand." In another illistration similar to this, a farmer want's to show a flock of birds how to fly into his barn to stay warm on a freezing night but the birds are afraid of him and don't understand him. The farmer wishes he could turn into a bird so he can show them the way. In the same way Jesus was God born as man to show us the way to live. quote:You cannot be 'forced' to follow God, it is always your choice to do so. And if you choose to follow God 'only' because you want the rewards of Heaven (or to escape hell) it is at least a first step towards Christlikeness. If you 'really' follow God, you will discover on your journey that there are better reasons to follow him. As for your illistration of Job I would say that God is just in taking away what Job had because He had given it to him in the first place. Even Job exclaimed 'The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away!' God is also just by what he gave Job after he proved himself to be a faithful servant. Much more then what he had started with. Since we are all God's creation and all we have is his also he is just in taking that which was already his. That "Suffering happens to the good, and god lets it happen" does not make him any less powerful. Sure, He could stop it but in doing so he would stop the growth of our character which cannot be tested, tried, or proven to be true without adversity. [quote} Originally written by Alorael: I'm not so sure why we assume free will, though, since an omnisicient and omnipotent God would make much more sense in a clockwork universe.[/quote] I have addressed a similar question elsewhere. "God wants everyone to choose to worship him. He does not want us to worship him because we have to or because it is the only thing we are capable of. He wants us to worship him because we 'want' to worship him. Having a servant who chooses to stay with you when he is free not to, is immesureably better then having a slave who only serves you because he has no other choice." "If he wanted drones he would have created them, instead he gave us free will which tells me he wants us to choose, but he wants us to choose him." For the previous question, I answer no. God may not intervene all the time but that does not mean he doesn't intervene at all. And while most miracles have only testimony as proof, it does not make all of those miracles false. A final verse for thought. Luke 16:31 (Jesus speaking a parable.) "He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.'" Even with all the tests possible done and available for review, it would still not be enough. -------------------- Forever Always on Past the End tracihedlund@charter.net[/url] TrueSite for Blades - Blades Walkthroughs Pixle Profusion - BoE Graphics Archive Posts: 563 | Registered: Tuesday, July 27 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Tuesday, April 12 2005 11:16
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quote:It would be nice if instead of helping me find my keys God would give that hungry child a steak. Also you don't feel bad for them because they will get to heaven? According to ben if they are not devoted to Jesus they have no place in heaven. I doubt these starving dying children would be comforted by the reassurance of paradise in the existence to come. quote:Just to make the argument, many people fallow God because they were raised to do so, or out of fear of suffering. They may not know there are other ways to love God other than Christian beliefs. Forgive me, but I don't see why Christianity is the “correct” faith. [ Tuesday, April 12, 2005 11:17: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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The Establishment
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written Tuesday, April 12 2005 12:19
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quote:I am happy you do not feel the need to question and analyze your belief systems in any way. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Tuesday, April 12 2005 12:52
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Do you believe the Bible is divinely inspired because it tells you so? :) -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Tuesday, April 12 2005 18:01
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I do analyze my belief system. For a more thurough look at part of my analization look at Back from Brainwash City in desp (beware... it is a harsh country). The reasons why I believe the Bible is true are numerous. They start with what the Bible says itself and continue with personal experience, study, meditation, and prayer. Plus there's the filling of the Holy Spirit that reassures me time and time again. I have made a commitment to study all other holy books but with the personal proof I have for myself (which I can only testify to so it doesn't hold much water with you) I expect only to confirm what I already believe. If I find otherwise, I'll be sure to let you know. Re starving children: If they are children, they are innocent and do not have the understanding needed to make a decision about God, same with the mentally disabled. I go extensively into my thoughts on this at desp. (if you can find them, it turned into quite a long post) And if God gave every hungry person a meal to eat every time they were hungry how would we be able to exercise our generosity, sympathy, and hospitality? God allows for pain in the world so we can learn. Again, without adversity our character cannot grow. -------------------- Forever Always on Past the End tracihedlund@charter.net[/url] TrueSite for Blades - Blades Walkthroughs Pixle Profusion - BoE Graphics Archive Posts: 563 | Registered: Tuesday, July 27 2004 07:00 |
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Master
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written Tuesday, April 12 2005 18:01
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quote:Just let me say that God isn't going to spontaneously help every person in the world. So of the responsibility, as Gizmo hinted at in the paragraph you quoted, falls on us to carry out God's work. As for believing the Bible, one good piece of evidence that it's true is all the prophecies that were fulfilled and are continuing to be fulfilled today. The reforming of Israel was prophcied, as well as many wars and the end times. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 3688
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written Tuesday, April 12 2005 18:11
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quote:Well, here you also put light on how even the holy rollers here don't really believe in an omnipotent god creating miracles. For an all powerful god, it is just as easy to lift a stone as it is to erase the sun. Yet why do prayers only ask for something that is statistically probable? Why not prayers asking god to return my dead wife to life, something that couldn't happen without a miracle, but instead prayers asking to have someone survive and illness, something that can happen without a miracle? The fact that prayers and miracles are limited to the realm of possability shows that even those who proclaim to worship an almighty god do not truly believe. Posts: 23 | Registered: Friday, November 14 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
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written Tuesday, April 12 2005 18:27
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quote:Why would you learn anything new when you are only looking for confirmation? -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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The Establishment
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written Tuesday, April 12 2005 18:45
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quote:I hardly think these count. The reforming of Israel was a forced thing by the powers that be after World War II. It happened not through divine intervention or chance, but because people willed it to happen to confirm the prediction. It's like me making a prophecy that a specific person will get a million dollars and then that person spends his or her whole life making that come true. Would I be considered a great prophet? Well, one at giving out self-fulfilling ones, I suppose... Many wars, like? Specifics here! What exactly was predicted? That great wars will happen? Well, just about many religious traditions talk about major wars. Major wars have been happening all the time, it's just the scale was different. The war was big relative to the "size" of the world. If there was a prediction saying that in the 20th century there would be a war across the globe, the slaughtering of Jews, ending with weapons of incredible power, that would be a lot nicer. I got news, the end times haven't happened yet... The problem with prophecy is that they are really too vague to substantiate anything. I can make prophecies so general that they are bound to happen sometime in the next few thousand years. Please, tell me specifically what prophecies have been/are being fufilled today. quote:Why bother? If you go in with the attitude that you expect to confirm what you already know, I suspect you will never find anything to contradict that. That's true for most things. Right now the burden of proof is on the other books, and I suspect it is just as high as it needs to be such that you never need to challenge your belief systems. Let me be the last to tell you how to run your life, but I think that examining other holy books (and secular ones too, I should add) with a critical eye, making the burden of proof on your belief system, would be a lot more convincing. [ Tuesday, April 12, 2005 18:53: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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BANNED
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written Tuesday, April 12 2005 19:15
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Let me first state that God is a selfish and cruel bastard. "Because the Bible tells me to and I believe that the Bible is divinely inspired." Way to dodge the subject. If you assume an Abrahamic god, then it is patently easy to argue for its texts. The abortion topic was locked for such patently cyclical logic, and I'm not sure how this topic is any different. (This is, incidentally, why scripture has no real bearing on me- I'm an atheist, and using your book is a damnedly poor way to advocate anything.) "I do not mourn very much for the child who starves to death. Let me tell you why before you call me heartless. That child will never suffer again, will never hunger again, will never thirst again, will never be cold or sick or alone ever again because s/he has a place prepared for him/her in Heaven." That's a very convenient excuse to dismiss the fact that said child has been robbed of a fulfiling life here on earth- You live in middle class suburbia, well-fed, using a computer. This blatant lack of pity for the mind-bogglingly destitute is testament to the fact of christianity's former role as a guardian of classism. (Now it's been overtaken by the undiluted free market, but that's neither here nor there.) Let me put it this way, then- god put us here for us to learn to love him, correct? That doesn't go very far to explain child abductions, infant suffocations, et cetera. Wouldn't a loving god who wanted all human beings to be graced with the opportunity to love him allow said vulnerable peoples to live? (Of course, therein lies a paradox of free will that basically demands Kushner's resolution, but nevertheless.) And if god placed us here without a purpose, then he's a cruel and spiteful bastard. "[. . .that large story I'm not going to quote for sake of saving space. . .]" That story is cute- it also assumes that god's ministry is perfect, which is patently false. Stating that "all things bring people closer to god" is a very conventient argument, which is a pattern with you, I find. What brings people closer to god when they are comitting murder? (And what about the person whose life was destroyed to facilitate this "assistance"? Or do only saved people who don't need it get shot?) So far, all that this world has been bringing all of us towards more prevalent consumerism and the bigotry that it gives us as baggage. And if god's ultimate goal is ruined lives, twisted sexuality, hypocrisy and murder, then she's doing a very good job. "And if you choose to follow God 'only' because you want the rewards of Heaven (or to escape hell) it is at least a first step towards Christlikeness." So it's christlike to paint crosses on shields before going into battle so god can beat the crap out of your enemies, or make you rich? God is a candy dispenser at that point- the relationship becomes an exploitative one. Constantine, for example, wrote the Edict of Milan and converted Rome into a christian state. On the other hand, he declared himself god, continued to practice greco-romanism pantheon paganism, and was a ruthless leader like any previous one. I'm not sure how god's giving him victory aided his development in christ- the christian movement was gaining popularity in the lower class and would have spread anyway. "As for your illistration of Job I would say that God is just in taking away what Job had because He had given it to him in the first place." So you're telling me that god is a kinky dominatrix tease. Thanks for the info. "God is also just by what he gave Job after he proved himself to be a faithful servant. Much more then what he had started with." So god's justice is ultimately measured in material wealth, and Job is fine with losing his family at that point? Now I'm not only questioning this spiteful deity, but its followers as well. "That 'Suffering happens to the good, and god lets it happen' does not make him any less powerful." That's a sin via inaction. Or is god allowed to be a hypocrite? "Sure, He could stop it but in doing so he would stop the growth of our character which cannot be tested, tried, or proven to be true without adversity." I agree 100%; this is basic free will doctrine. Which doesn't go far to explain why you just argued for divine intervention. Eh. "Even with all the tests possible done and available for review, it would still not be enough." Thanks for making the coda to your argument an insult! Have fun living on cloud nine. No, seriously- ignorance is bliss; it's no wonder I'm so irritated. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 03:09
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quote:Do you have any explanation for this conviction? quote:The inquisitors believed to know the cruel will of God: Genocide, torment and suffering. quote:You cannot fathom death. Claiming to know wether or not there is a postmortem realm with complete indubitableness is very haughty. The suffering of the dead has probably ceased, indeed. We do not need to empathize them, but those who are currently suffering on this world. quote:This contradicts that God is omnipotent, which is very paradoxal. quote: quote:The inquisitors did not share your opinion. quote:You illustrate God as a very conservative and egocentric Shaper, creating, tormenting and absorbing its creations. quote:The suffering happening to us proves that either God is not omnipotent or is very cruel and sadistic. quote:This statement also contradicts that God is omnipotent. quote:Why must we learn? If he is so powerful, he can simply write the information in our minds. quote:It would simply no longer be necessary. quote:If this is supposed to be an argument, it is very poor. quote:The tales in the Bible are meant to be interpreted as metaphors. [ Wednesday, April 13, 2005 03:27: Message edited by: Mind ] Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 11:23
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quote:I am not looking for confirmation, I expect confirmation. What I find is as of yet unknown. Just like you expect not to be swayed by any religous argument here but who can really tell how it will affect you? quote:Because I asked God to give me wisdom and He told me to study. Just knowing the mechanics of other faiths will help me. But as I said before, I already have personal proof that tells me I'm already on the right track. tTM - I can always count on you. Many of your questions I have already answered but I will answer them again since you ask again. quote:The 'book' is the essence of my beliefs. It is the reason people believe in a hell (which is the subject of the topic) Without it this topic would not exsist therefore it should be valid for use in this topic. You can disagree with me all you want, but telling me I can't even use my beliefs in my arguments crosses the line. quote:Would said child have a fulfilling life here on earth? Not everyone does. I will have compassion for them as long as they live, I do what I am able to ease their sufferings but once they have already passed I can only be glad that they no longer have any pain. quote:Again this is the question, 'Why does God allow bad things to happen to good people?' Only this time it is innocent people. All previous answers still apply. God did give us a purpose in life, He gave us at least five. But those are based on the Bible so I will not list them here. I will look at it in theoretical terms for your sake. [If} there is a God who has created us, then we [have] to have been made for a purpose. Even if it is only for his own sadistic pleasure to watch us fight over him. Since a purpose [has] to exsist [if] God exsists then it is up to us to discern what that purpose is. What resources exsist for us to discern this purpose? All holy books. Are all holy books true? No, they cannot be because some are exclusionary. Which are true? It is up to us to find out, thus why I plan to study them all. [If] God does not exsist then we [cannot] have a purpose because we are created by random chance and evolution. [If] we do not have a purpose, why do we want to find one? You yourself said that it would be cruel and sadistic to creat us without a purpose. Why if you believe we have no purpose anyway? Why is it cruel not to have a purpose? quote:I would say all things 'can' bring people closer to God. But it is always their choice. The hummingbird, once free, still did not understand that the guy with the broom was trying to help it, it will be even more afraid because it was hurt by the 'monster'. There are still those who do not realize or refuse to realize that the hand of God is working in their lives. They run from it, they refuse to believe it because they are unwilling to entertain the notion that those crazy fanatical fundamentalists just might be right. And refusing to believe themselves wrong they wander through life trying to find an alternate purpose for their lives since they have turned their back on their real purpose. quote:The First Step does not encompass the whole. It is better for a drug addict to submit to Christ then to stop doing drugs. Once submitted he must continue to submit as the realization of what he is doing is wrong comes to him. Growth is a process and spiritual growth doesn't happen over night. Neiter do I expect God to make me rich for doing his service. I expect him to do for me whatever it takes for me to learn what I need to know. Those who don't want to learn miss out on the opportunities that God gives them. (Of course you're not sure how god's giving him victory aided Constantine's development in christ. Neither do you know how many others were affected or how many would have not been affected if it didn't happen as it did. Neither do I. Just because we don't understand how God's hand has worked to shape every life doesn't give us reason to deny he exsists or that he never intervenes.) quote:Despite that I said nothing of the sort... Everything we have is God's. We are borrowing it from him. He can take it back at any time because it is his. You call it teasing, I call it simple property rights. quote:God's justice is ultimately measured by rewards for the faithful and punishment for the unfaithful both in the afterlife. The words of Job about his family and wealth being taken away from him. Job 1:20,21 "At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: Naked I came from my mother's womb and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised." He was fine with it before he was rewarded. It does not say what he felt after being rewarded but I can only conclude that he was at peace with his previous loss. quote:Why is it a sin for God not to act? What is sin? If God exsists then sin is what God says is sin. If God doesn't exsist then there is no such thing as sin. So which commandment has God broken by allowing the good to suffer? quote:Because God can and does do both. You seem to want all or nothing and will be satisfied with nothing less. The idea that God exercises his own free will to choose when to help and when not to help seems to upset you. Can't you be satisfied that God (if he exsists) knows what trials and encouragements his creations need to be prepared for the eternal home and tasks he has for them? If he doesn't exsist why even bother with me? Why waste what precious little life you have on earth arguing with a crazy fanatic like me who you have little to no chance of getting to agree with you. quote:It is only an insult if you take it for one. You can only be offended by what you allow to offend you. My meaning is that no matter how much evidence there is those who do not want to believe in miracles will not. You do not believe in God, therefore you do not believe in miracles and all the evidence I pile up in front of you will not change your mind if you do not want it to be changed. tMind - I will address you at a later time. [ Wednesday, April 13, 2005 11:24: Message edited by: Gizmo ] -------------------- Forever Always on Past the End tracihedlund@charter.net[/url] TrueSite for Blades - Blades Walkthroughs Pixle Profusion - BoE Graphics Archive Posts: 563 | Registered: Tuesday, July 27 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 11:54
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Gizmo, where is this evidence of miracles? Is there even enough of it to pile up? You may take comfort in the fact that so many people believe the same way that you do, but that doesn't prevent every one of you from being wrong. Consider Nazi Germany. Consider Islam, or all the Hindu practitioners, or all the Buddhists out there. One of these groups (or all of them!!!) have to be wrong. All of these groups have writings that at times are as inane as the Bible. I think the fact that you were raised in the American Midwest among like-minded Christian individuals has more to do with why you believe the way you do than the inherent truth in the material. I was subject to the same influences, growing up a block and a half away from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. But I ultimately couldn't find their answers compelling, despite that the implications of them not being true terrified me at the time, and still do, to a lesser extent, because I like being alive. [ Wednesday, April 13, 2005 12:10: Message edited by: andrew miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 11:59
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Don't try to argue that the Bible is apocryphal. Obviously some people believe that, and others take it literally. That begs the question that we've been arguing about. On the other side, assuming the Bible is true to support your assertion that the Bible is true is also begging the question. The topic started about whether or not we believe in hell, but it hasn't stayed that way, and at no point was the Bible accepted as unconditionally true in the discussion. How much free will do we have if God can play with us like bugs if he wants to? I guess that doesn't take away will, but it still leaves us without any effective means of controlling our environment. Furthermore, what does it say about God that he kills Job's family in order to make a point to an underling? Okay, so maybe they were faithful and would immediately go to heaven even though the concept is not emphasized in the Old Testament. Then why doesn't God strike down everyone who would go to heaven immediately so they can stop suffering on Earth? Once again, it doesn't add up. God is not omnipotent, God is not compassionate, or God is completely beyond our understanding. This last is the only reasonable explanation, but then we might as well throw all attempts to think out the window. —Alorael, who doesn't swallow the doctrine that God gave humans intelligence so that they could exercise their right to not think. Jacob was honored for wrestling with God. Shouldn't everyone else follow his example? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 12:15
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quote:This is a contradiction. If you are expecting it than you are looking for it. If your opinions are set in stone you are very unlikely to see what you don't want to see. As for my religious views I am not a Christian, but I have never denied the existence of a deity. Please understand there are other views on what God is, and I grew up with Catholics. I know their doctrine very well and disagree with it. It is hypocritical to say the least. quote:I am curious if this is intuition of do you have tangible proof? quote:All holy books teach different perspectives on God and life. Most of them contradict each other to some degree. It is interesting that you would be open to learning about the beliefs of others, as you sound like you are already certain of what reality truly is. You never did answer why the Bible and Christianity are correct above all others. It would be cruel to have no purpose as we are instinctually driven to find one. Not to claim all, but most people spend their lives trying to find their puzzle piece, what they are meant to be doing. To put us here without even the slightest intention of a place of being is slightly frustrating. quote:There are countless drug addicts who love Jesus, and believe it or not they still use drugs. For one thing not all of them feel it to be wrong, and second they may feel God will forgive them due to their love of Jesus. quote:This is the root of Christen philosophy; God is all and you are nothing. Is it not possible that God loves its creations enough to view us as part of it, and not positions? quote:Please elaborate on this. Does this apply to those who have never heard of God as you see it. Do Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and natives go to hell for their different faith? -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 03:18
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quote:A prophecy predicted the end times and was fulfilled? I didn't realize the end times are here yet... though looking at this mess I see a point... As far as prophecies go... wars are easy: Lo! I see a future, dark and terrible, And a world running crimson with blood A great war is coming, within three centuries Of this day! Made it up just now. And I have no doubt it will be fulfilled. [ Thursday, April 14, 2005 03:19: Message edited by: Annuit Coeptis ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 06:11
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quote:Greetings, God. quote:Can I convince you to do so? quote:God, according to your religion, gave us our lives. By ending our lives, he greatly disadvantages us, but does not advantage anyone. quote:Assuming that the idea that being unfaithful is wrong is not nonsensical, should He not be punished for creating unfaithful persons? quote:He is responsible for every event in the universe. [ Thursday, April 14, 2005 06:11: Message edited by: Mind ] Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5550
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 13:17
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Do you believe that the people who are challenging you should go to hell. Because according to you can only go to heaven if you believe in Jesus. Do you believe that disbelief is a big enough crime to merit eternal punisment. Also, you say that the bible is literally true and that all of it is correct. In one passage, women who wear pants should be stoned to death. So tell me, do you often go to jail because of your throwing rocks at women on the street? -------------------- Most Important Questions: Why does one sock go missing? What is the purpose of meaning? What is the purpose of girls? What happened to the other one? Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 16:01
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quote:For the most part, the most rabid conservative will draw a line between practicality and impossibility even concerning the bible. And, although this is possibly the place where such an argument has the most value it can have... Setting up a known and accepted bad standpoint ("stoning women") and pinning it on one's opponent's stance ("the bible is literally true") is called a "strawman" (alternatively "slippery slope"), is a fallacy and unusable in debate. Regardless, I don't think there is anyone in the the world who knows the whole bible and believes that every single word in it is solid and immutable fact and law. Even the clergy does not maintain this, and those people who do and do so with all their honesty (mostly, forgive me for this generalization, ignorant hillbillies) have never read those parts of the bible you mention. [ Thursday, April 14, 2005 16:03: Message edited by: Novus Ordo Seclorum ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4784
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written Friday, April 15 2005 09:24
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In response to Mind. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: Because the Bible tells me to and I believe that the Bible is divinely inspired. Do you have any explanation for this conviction? Yes. The Lord has and continues to reveal himself to me. The most convincing is the physical feeling I get when I worship Him. The 'filling of the Holy Spirit' as it is called in the Bible. I cannot deny this feeling and that I get it mostly in direct correlation with times of prayer and worship leads me to connect the two. Other 'touches' have led me to feel warned or encouraged when warning or encouraging was needed. Other things most skeptics would toss away as coincidence and say that I only see it as God because I am looking for God, but I will provide more examples if you wish. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: These verses not only tell me that I can know God's will (at least in part), but also that I should seek God's will by asking him to reveal it to me. No one knows the entirety of his will but it is easy enough for us to know snippets of it as he reveals it to us. The inquisitors believed to know the cruel will of God: Genocide, torment and suffering. The inquisitors did not practice the love taught by Jesus. They became proud when Jesus had told them to be humble. They are akin to the pharasies that Jesus rebuked. What matters most is your heart, the inquisitors did not believe this. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: That child will never suffer again, will never hunger again, will never thirst again, will never be cold or sick or alone ever again because s/he has a place prepared for him/her in Heaven. You cannot fathom death. Claiming to know wether or not there is a postmortem realm with complete indubitableness is very haughty. The suffering of the dead has probably ceased, indeed. We do not need to empathize them, but those who are currently suffering on this world. I can fathom death as far as my beliefs allow, as far as the Bible explains it to me. You claim it to be haughty to believe on the Word of God as written in the Bible. Just because you are not certain doesn't mean I cannot be. I have already told you what personal proof I have for my indubitableness. If I am wrong... I'll never know the difference anyway so I choose to live for the purposes I have found in Christ. There is great peace in knowing your purpose. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: "Is this not what happens to us with God? He throws some pretty scary stuff at us, and it’s hard to believe He has our best interests at heart. He may even be telling us to fly down, but we don’t hear Him, so He brings something into our lives that forces us down, and only then do we find that down was the way out." This contradicts that God is omnipotent, which is very paradoxal. quote:god n 1: the supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe; the object of worship in monotheistic religions [syn: God, Supreme Being] I do not see a contradiction. I only see that God chooses most times to use other than miraculous events to guide us where we need to go. Again, why must God always use his omnipotent power for immediately beneficial results for you to admit that he has said power? God has his own free will and may use whatever means he chooses to teach our resistant minds. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: You cannot be 'forced' to follow God, it is always your choice to do so. The inquisitors did not share your opinion. The inquisitors were able to force people to 'say' they followed God, but they could not change anyone's heart. It is possible to lie about following God. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: As for your illistration of Job I would say that God is just in taking away what Job had because He had given it to him in the first place. You illustrate God as a very conservative and egocentric Shaper, creating, tormenting and absorbing its creations. Would that be deffinition one or deffinition three of egocentric?. If it is deffinition one I agree with you, three not so much. Tormenting is such a harsh sounding word, how about distress? I rather think that he doesn't necessarily do the tormenting, he just allows it to happen to us. Never-the-less we should be willing to be tormented if it is what we need to be made more like Christ. Not saying we'll like it, but we should be willing to endure. And I don't know where you get absorbing from. You'll have to expound on that one. I would also add to the list... but it'd be a loong list. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: That "Suffering happens to the good, and god lets it happen" does not make him any less powerful. The suffering happening to us proves that either God is not omnipotent or is very cruel and sadistic. So a parent who allows their rebellious teen to spend the night in jail is sadistic and cruel? Or also one who allows for a painful medical procedure so that the child can get better? These skate below omnipotence but there is a connection. Our souls would not be able to develop the character God desires in us if we didn't go through these sufferings. God wants us to learn compassion, we cannot learn compassion if there is no one to have compassion on. What you call cruel, I call logical. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: God may not intervene all the time but that does not mean he doesn't intervene at all. This statement also contradicts that God is omnipotent. I ask if you think being omnipotent means you have to use your power. Because that it itself is a paradox. If you are all-powerful no one can make you use your power and you can choose never to use it if you like. It doesn't mean you don't have it. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: God allows for pain in the world so we can learn. Why must we learn? If he is so powerful, he can simply write the information in our minds. I think he can and does write informaiton in our minds, it's caled our conscious and instincts. We don't always recognize thoughts as coming from him and sometimes he waits for us to ask for wisdom. There is also the freewill issue. Just giving everyone all knowledge would bypass our decisions and make us boring drones. By withholding knowledge and making us learn our integrity is revealed and our character is cultivated. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: And if God gave every hungry person a meal to eat every time they were hungry how would we be able to exercise our generosity, sympathy, and hospitality? It would simply no longer be necessary. Yes, and it would not be learned. Originally written by Gizmo: Because I asked God to give me wisdom and He told me to study. Greetings, God. I am not God. Just a humble servant. How you can get that I am(or claim to be) God from that statement is beyond me. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: He gave us at least five. But those are based on the Bible so I will not list them here. Can I convince you to do so? Since you asked yes. The five basic purposes outlined in the Bible are Worship, Fellowship, Discipleship, Ministry, and Evangelism. All purposes are meant to be carried out in balance. I will expound on each if you ask. quote:Originally written by Gizmo: Despite that I said nothing of the sort... Everything we have is God's. We are borrowing it from him. He can take it back at any time because it is his. You call it teasing, I call it simple property rights. God, according to your religion, gave us our lives. By ending our lives, he greatly disadvantages us, but does not advantage anyone. How do you know that no one is advantaged? Will none be advantaged by Terri Shivo's death? Will none gain compassion for the helpless? Will none sit down to write a living will so that their family can avoid a similar heartache? Will none choose to act for a betterment of the world because of her? I say all have already been done and her death was not in vain. quote:Originally written by The Inquisitor: God's justice is ultimately measured by rewards for the faithful and punishment for the unfaithful both in the afterlife. Assuming that the idea that being unfaithful is wrong is not nonsensical, should He not be punished for creating unfaithful persons? Everyone had the ability to be faithful, everyone had the choice to be so. True he knows what we will choose because he knows the future, but he also knows all the lives that will be affected by our exsistance in the world however short. quote:Originally written by The Inquisitor: Why is it a sin for God not to act? He is responsible for every event in the universe. So you decide to go on a murder spree and kill ten people for whatever reason that you deemed worth doing so and then you blame God for the deaths because he created you and knew you would do it before he put you on the earth? Sounds almost like the same 'The Devil made me do it!' cop out to me. It is often said that everyone must take responsibility for their own actions. God's action was to create you even in the knowledge that you would be a murderer. Your actions were to murder ten people. So is God really responsible? I can understand your argument that it is and on the flipside as a Christian say that God has already taken responsibility. Christ lived a life without sin then died an excruciating death for attonement of our sins. One needs only to accept said attonement to give up the responsiblity for the penalty of their sins. In response to Dolphin: I am not looking for confirmation, I expect confirmation. What I find is as of yet unknown. Just like you expect not to be swayed by any religous argument here but who can really tell how it will affect you? This is a contradiction. If you are expecting it than you are looking for it. If your opinions are set in stone you are very unlikely to see what you don't want to see. As for my religious views I am not a Christian, but I have never denied the existence of a deity. Please understand there are other views on what God is, and I grew up with Catholics. I know their doctrine very well and disagree with it. It is hypocritical to say the least. You are correct. I worded it wrong. I can expect to win a game but come out in the end finding I have lost. I can expect a present on my Birthday from family and friends, but it does not guarantee that I will get one. I may be looking for confirmation of my faith but I still don't know what I will find. I am open to gaining insight, what I am not willing to do is give up Christ because of the personal proof I already have. Because I asked God to give me wisdom and He told me to study. Just knowing the mechanics of other faiths will help me. But as I said before, I already have personal proof that tells me I'm already on the right track. I am curious if this is intuition [or] do you have tangible proof? My proof is only tangible to me as I cannot just give you a filling of the Holy Spirit and you only have my testimony that it is true. The realization to study actually came more from my being immersed in questions over at desperance that I had never thought about before. The only way I can answer some of those questions is to study. I say 'God told me to study' because I would have no desire to do so if I had not asked him for wisdom in the first place. All holy books teach different perspectives on God and life. Most of them contradict each other to some degree. It is interesting that you would be open to learning about the beliefs of others, as you sound like you are already certain of what reality truly is. You never did answer why the Bible and Christianity are correct above all others. It would be cruel to have no purpose as we are instinctually driven to find one. Not to claim all, but most people spend their lives trying to find their puzzle piece, what they are meant to be doing. To put us here without even the slightest intention of a place of being is slightly frustrating. Aah, another question that for the answer I must study. I must know what is in all other holy books to be able to give a qualitative answer. Why I believe so before I begin study is again because of my 'personal proof'. I agree that as humans, we are driven to find a purpose. It is one small reason why I believe in a God at all. If there was no God, thus no purpose to life, I would not expect us to want one so badly. There are countless drug addicts who love Jesus, and believe it or not they still use drugs. For one thing not all of them feel it to be wrong, and second they may feel God will forgive them due to their love of Jesus. And, I've little doubt they will be forgiven. There could be a few exceptions. The Bible claims that in order to be forgiven by God you must also forgive those who sin against you, and there is an issue of repentance. If someone continues to commit what they know is a sin without regret or remorse thinking only that Jesus will forgive them because they 'say' they love him, I would question the validity of that love. Genuine love for Jesus leads to genuine change in ones life, actions, and perspective of thinking. quote: Despite that I said nothing of the sort... Everything we have is God's. We are borrowing it from him. He can take it back at any time because it is his. You call it teasing, I call it simple property rights. This is the root of Christen philosophy; God is all and you are nothing. Is it not possible that God loves its creations enough to view us as part of it, and not [possessions]? It is possible only if the Bible is not true, thus why I argue the other way. quote: God's justice is ultimately measured by rewards for the faithful and punishment for the unfaithful both in the afterlife. Please elaborate on this. Does this apply to those who have never heard of God as you see it. Do Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and natives go to hell for their different faith? I will grab an answer I gave over at desperance that explains my personal beliefs on this. The Bible does not specifically say. So... "I don't know. Do you wish me to speculate? For a brief time believed that reincarnation was a feasible idea since any who had not heard of Christ could just be reincarnated until they had that chance. There is nothing in the Bible to support this and there is some that is argued to counter it. But what I really think is this. You can know for sure, right now if you're going to Heaven or not by believing Jesus is God's son, asking Him for forgiveness of your sins, and giving your life to Him. If you do this there is no doubt, you will be judged and every hidden sin revealed, but you already claim the gift Jesus has given. If you have never heard of Jesus in your lifetime you will be judged and have to give an account of your life. Then and there Jesus will decide whether to show you mercy or not based on mostly character. [and also your faithfulness in serving 'a' god thinking you were serving the correct god] If you have heard of Jesus and have rejected Him, He will also reject you. So I guess if I really believe this, what I have to ask myself is do I really want to tell others about Jesus and risk that they will reject Him for the benefit of those who will accept Him and have the security of Heaven?" I also think that if you have any doubt that you are serving the right God/in the right way and do not make any effort to find the answer, your lack of action will also be judged. Someone else has aready said that on judgment day, those who have never heard may have the chance there to accept his grace but I rather think that after death everything is left in the Lord's hands. In response to Maxmillion: Do you believe that the people who are challenging you should go to hell. Because according to you can only go to heaven if you believe in Jesus. Do you believe that disbelief is a big enough crime to merit eternal punisment. Also, you say that the bible is literally true and that all of it is correct. In one passage, women who wear pants should be stoned to death. So tell me, do you often go to jail because of your throwing rocks at women on the street? I'm not sure if you meant me or Ben but I will answer like you meant me. I neither want nor think my challengers should to go to hell. They are all sinners the same as me, they are all on the same journey of life as me. The difference between us is that I found the answer and I want to share it with the rest. I do not expect a warm welcome or a fond farewell, I only plant seeds in the hope that someday they will sprout. Look to my previous answer for who I think will get into heaven. Re eternal punishment: I do not like the idea of eternal punishment any more than you but I can neither change God's choice of punishment or fathom his reason for such punishment. Still I trust God is just in the punishments he chooses. Another quote from desp. "I choose to believe in hell becaues the bible says it exsists, but I will make this concession. If the idea of hell hampers your desire to worship God then don't believe in it. In the end it won't matter if you believe in Hell or not. What we believe won't change what is. What will matter is if you chose to worship God. Whether or not hell exsists, I still believe that those who choose not to worship God will not go to heaven." I do not say that the Bible is litterally true, just divinely inspired. Jesus himself spoke in parables which he had to explain to his disciples. There are many other parts of the Bible I consider metaphoric instead of literal. Revelation for one. So for women who are to be stoned for wearing pants, I look to the reason for the rule. It was a cultural appropriateness for a woman to wear a dress. A woman who wore pants was most likely trying to pretend to be a man. So if a woman was caught pretending to be a man they were to be stoned for their deception. These days, American culture at least has no qualm with women wearing pants and a woman who wears pants is most likely trying to be comfortable, not pretending to be a man. Since there is no inherent deception in wearing pants, it is not a sin (in our culture) to do so. All scriptures need to be studies to see what was really being punished not just the examples of what merrited said punishment. [ Friday, April 15, 2005 09:34: Message edited by: Gizmo ] -------------------- Forever Always on Past the End tracihedlund@charter.net[/url] TrueSite for Blades - Blades Walkthroughs Pixle Profusion - BoE Graphics Archive Posts: 563 | Registered: Tuesday, July 27 2004 07:00 |
