Do you think there is a Hell?

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AuthorTopic: Do you think there is a Hell?
Master
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quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion:

If god were were perfect, he'd be happy without companionship. Also, why make us flawed so that we needed to be saved? Some say that god is benevolent and just. I just had a Sadr, where the 10th plauge was described, which was killing all Egyptian first born sons. They had nothing to do with the fact of Jewish enslavement. If god were just, he would have punished the Pharoh.
God was using this as a final sign that it was he who was performing these miracles and it would get worse if he didn't let the people go. This was finally bad enough that he consented.

All those firstborns got a just judgement: if they chose to believe in God, they made it to heaven quicker than all their longer-living peers. Now that's unfair. :P

quote:
Originally written by Tbg10101:
why are so mant religeous people so devoted to their religeon?
You mean Christians? They're insuring their way to heaven and doing God's will in the process.

quote:
Originally written by hawk king:
when you turn 13 if you die and said no you go to hell 13 is the line once your there you can no longer claim ignorance its up to you now
Nuh-uh. They only age limit is when you become old enough to find out how to devote yourself to God.

Oh, and hawk king, your last post was tl/dr. If you would have used sentences, paragraphs, commas, capital letters and better grammar, I might have read it all. ;)

quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:
I don't resent God. I dislike Christianity and Catholicism because they are hypocritical and no body who is guided by those faiths can answer my questions. They all have faith in something they barely understand. Why fallow a God you don't know and can't comprehend?
We should be growing and growing in our knowledge of God over the course of our whole life. It doesn't just come overnight. Only through prayer, reading the Bible, and devotion to God can you gain a good understand of how God works.
quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion:
The universe may be eventuely comprehensible. You assume god never will. That is the difference between facts and faith. And no one has answered my question.
I doubt the universe will even be close to fully comprehensible by the Second Coming. I think the End Times are just around the corner. Humans are just simply uncapable of fully understanding God, however.

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quote:
Originally written by 1001011001000:

All those firstborns got a just judgement: if they chose to believe in God, they made it to heaven quicker than all their longer-living peers. Now that's unfair. :P
Life's unfair. On us. For having to deal with you.

End yourself.

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Warrior
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Acoording to your creed, those first born would go to hell because Jesus hadn't come yet. Very fair. Also, other animals are sentient. Apes and Dolphins communicate with us, and there are reports of animals studying the scientists. But I guess since they're animals, they just are all the same, and none have any difference. Only humans have the wisdom and foresight to come out of the wild and help make the world a better place.(Sarcasm)

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Law Bringer
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Well... perhaps those firstborn sons didn't want to go to heaven or hell yet?

I wouldn't mind living another couple of years before entering the afterlife, especially if it's the afterlife of some weird new religion I've never heard of (as Judaism was for the Egyptians then).

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Electric Sheep One
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I do not assume God will never be comprehensible, at least not at the level of comprehensibility involved in answering simple questions. I am agnostic about the ultimate comprehensibility of God. I merely point out the inconsistency of expecting people to explain God, when no-one can even explain (for example) quantum gravity. The universe is subtle, strange, and difficult to imagine; any God worthy of the name must be at least equally so. The complexity of a theology is the last thing that should be held against it.

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The difference is of mindset. Scientists never throw up their hands and say that something will never be solved. Apparentely, religous people do.

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quote:
Originally written by 1001011001000:

<Insert youthful "insight" on Christianity here>
Ben, I believe there's a fellow that has some Kool-Aid for you somewhere...
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Electric Sheep One
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If there is such a sharp distinction between religion and science, I don't see how that can be it. Some religious people think they have all the answers already. Many others are confident, or at least hopeful, that all the answers will eventually be revealed. Some scientists doubt that some important questions have answers comprehensible to humans. Practically all scientists admit that many questions will go unanswered for the foreseeable future, and the distinction between that and 'forever' does not seem to have many practical consequences. And of course many scientists are religious.

[ Monday, April 25, 2005 12:05: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shaper
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Ben-
If animals don't have souls (which they do) than why did God give the sensations of fear and joy? Why would God give a creature thought and desires similar to ours, only to deny them the next realm?

“God made us in his own image” Image as in what? He looks like us or thinks like us? I'm guessing in body, due to when he created us we were made ignorant. Only after eating the forbidden fruit did we gain consciousness greater than that of animals.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Master
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Science and religion are not the same thing. Science deals with exploring the universe we live in and our environment and figuring out how things work and how we can use them. Religion deals with the realm outside of and higher than the universe. It deals with our Creator, God, and the workings of the supernatural. Since humans are not supernatural, we can never fully understand what goes on in the supernatural realm, but we can pray to God and use the power he gives us to perform things from the supernatural.

These are what we call miracles. Sometimes, the miracles come directly from God and can be helped to happen through prayer. Sometimes, God bestows some of his power into some human and allows them to perform the miracle, but you must remember, God is the one actually performing the miracle through the human. Humans can't perform miracles on their own.

Now, we have discussed miracles before that, and basically, you say that all "miracles" can be explained by sceince. But that is an assumption based on the beleif that God doesn't exist. If you can prove to me that all miracles can be explained by science, I might be moved from my mindset.

Also, if you can prove that animals have this same kind of interaction with God, or any interaction with God for that matter, I might be moved to believe that animals in fact do have souls. However, there is no evidence that animals follow any type of religion, and I think their lives are operated purely by God-given instinct and earthly experiences, but they don't voluntarily follow God.

I have heard that the people that died before Jesus died on the cross did go to hell unless they had properly offered sacrifies for all of thier sins, which was very unlikely, if not impossible. However, I have also heard that we Jesus died, he gave everyone in hell a chance to accept him. This seems weird, unfair, and unlikely, and it really does. But that's what I've heard; it could very likely have been different, but no one will ever know.

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Shaper
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quote:
Originally written by 1001011001000:

However, there is no evidence that animals follow any type of religion,
NO SIR THAT IS NOT TRUE THE BUNNY RABBITS WORSHIP FRITH AND BELIEVE THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS MADE FROM FRITH'S POO! I READ IT IN A BOOK SO IT MUST BE TRUE

:)

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Master
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BUT COMMON SENSE TELLS YOU ITS NOT.

:)

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-ben4808

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quote:
I have heard that the people that died before Jesus died on the cross did go to hell unless they had properly offered sacrifies for all of thier sins, which was very unlikely, if not impossible. However, I have also heard that we Jesus died, he gave everyone in hell a chance to accept him. This seems weird, unfair, and unlikely, and it really does. But that's what I've heard; it could very likely have been different, but no one will ever know.
Actually ben, I've recently discovered a verse in the Bible that says that no one(revise to no believer in the Abrahamic God) went to hell until after Jesus's death. Give me a minute(or 20) to look it up.

Edit: OK, Romans 3:25,26 "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

It's a bit different from no one going to hell before Jesus but not being a scholar this is how I understand it: Before Jesus' death those who had faith that God was going to send a messiah were not punished for their sins even if they died before doing the proper sacrifices because of their faith, just as those afterwards are saved by their faith that Jesus is the messiah. Children would still be considered innocent as they don't have enough understanding to believe in God, and any who had never heard of the God of Abraham fell under the same umbrella as those who have never heard the Gospel. You alredy know my view on those.

Also, I would not be surprised if there were animals in heaven for the simple fact that they are all wonderful creations of God.(well maybe not the mosquito) The Bible does not say so we are left in the dark. May I entertain the thought that those animals that show compassion and understanding are actually angels in disguise? Or that they are showing these traits only as an extension of God's will for them to do so?

[ Monday, April 25, 2005 14:29: Message edited by: Gizmo ]

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Not true, Dolphin. Since God doesn't have any corporeal form according to the latest in theology, the only image we can have is mental and spiritual. Even before knowledge of good and evil we were the only creatures to have the level of intelligence that we have, and we are and always have been the only animals to have spirituality and a link with God, as Ben points out. Or so goes the argument. Since the Bible doesn't address the issue, I don't see why animals aren't inherently in a state of grace because they are free from original sin and all ability to sin.

Ben, science can explain everything. There may be no way for us to ever gain the data neccessary to understand everything, but at some level everything makes sense (or doesn't make sense, but that can be shown too). That's admittedly hair-splitting, but I think it's a fair thing to point out.

—Alorael, who would like to point out that the science can (currently) explain miracles argument doesn't necessarily rest on atheism. It rests on the fact that all miracles that occur today aren't miracles at all. Shams are depressingly common, as are mistakes, as are events based on the power of mass suggestion, and so on and so forth. If God acts, he acts too subtly to be distinguished from luck.
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Electric Sheep One
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I wish I were so confident science could explain everything. The highest goal of physics seems to be determine the ultimate equations of motion, leaving the initial conditions of the universe a complete mystery, even though everything would depend on them. Yet my mind boggles at the idea that everything, down to the minutest detail of creation, should be logically necessary; which is what the existence of an explanation of the initial conditions would seem to mean. I am left confused about even what I ought to mean by 'explain'.

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Master
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Alo, I just don't see how science can explain anything that it not detectable to the five senses and that can be outside the universe.

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Shaper
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quote:
originally written by 1001011001000:
Also, if you can prove that animals have this same kind of interaction with God, or any interaction with God for that matter, I might be moved to believe that animals in fact do have souls. However, there is no evidence that animals follow any type of religion, and I think their lives are operated purely by God-given instinct and earthly experiences, but they don't voluntarily follow God.
Humans are the only animal capable of a worshiping a higher being, but there are many humans who have no connection to God, or don't believe in God at all. Does that mean some humans don't have a soul?

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All humans have a choice to connect to God. Some just choose not to.

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Bob's Big Date
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quote:
Originally written by 1001011001000:

Alo, I just don't see how science can explain anything that it not detectable to the five senses and that can be outside the universe.
Science is the process of thorough testing of a rational hypothesis. It can explain anything you want, given enough data and a few good thinkers.

The position of current scientific understanding (separate and distinct from 'science' - the process itself; the c.s.u. can be wrong, but science is never procedurally wrong, and in fact corrects the c.s.u. when it is) is that God might exist, and might not. Jimmy Carter is far more likely to exist, being as how more people living have seen him, spoken to him, etc. It might benefit human understanding to pursue the extance of either.

But pursuing the validity of either's decrees? Useless, subjective, and time-wasting. Just because you want to believe a violation of one man's rights represents a fundamental blow to human dignity on the say-so of a supposed Georgian peanut farmer doesn't mean you should waste everyone's time 'proving' his opinion is inherently true.

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quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

Humans are the only animal capable of a worshiping a higher being,...
I believe Jane Goodall's research revealed examples of coordinated, ritualistic behavior among tribes of chimps. These displays were most often observed at the sites of striking natural phenomena, such as waterfalls. Goodall interpreted the behavior as a form of primitive animism, similar to the most primal of human religions.

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quote:
Originally written by Gizmo:

All humans have a choice to connect to God. Some just choose not to.
I'm quoting this in a different context, but really, that statement is as offensive as this one:

All humans have a choice to believe in a God that doesn't actually exist. Some just choose not to be deceived.

Or how about this one?

All humans have a choice to try connecting to a God that doesn't care about them anymore than humans care about or are connected with ants. Some just choose not to waste their time.

[ Tuesday, April 26, 2005 05:44: Message edited by: andrew miller ]
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This thread has gotten really, really deep into circular argument. Ben, you're provoking a burden of proof post, because one cannot say "prove that at no point in time has God ever done something which cannot be explained by science", as then an attempt to prove it would need to scientifically and systematically explain every event that has ever occurred. The burden of proof - or at least, the burden of finding examples - rests on you in this case.

ADoS, your skull is vacant. :P

This thread is going home.

[ Tuesday, April 26, 2005 06:38: Message edited by: Imban ]
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