Do you think there is a Hell?
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, April 17 2005 02:47
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Surely it's possible to want something without having the ability to take action to fulfil that want. If, as you say, we need to be perfect, why not make us perfect in the first place? [ Sunday, April 17, 2005 02:48: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, April 17 2005 06:32
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quote:Spoiling a child makes it happy. The eventual consequences make it unhappy. God is both capable of "spoiling" us indefinitely so that we never suffer for it and able to spoil us far more carefully than any human parent. quote:Free will isn't consciousness, as Thuryl pointed out. And for that matter, God could give us enough free will to choose our own kind of happiness while still preventing unhappiness. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, that shouldn't be an impossible task at all. —Alorael, who believes God did create humans perfectly happy and almost perfect. The problems started with a faux pas in Eden. That seems a little bit like a setup by God too, though. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Sunday, April 17 2005 07:45
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Now that you mention it, Alo, I brought the Garden of Eden up at Desp. quote:Therefore, either way, the Bible is lying to you. [ Sunday, April 17, 2005 07:46: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ] -------------------- The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5550
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written Sunday, April 17 2005 12:15
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Someone said that if gays were truely Christian, they would become heterosexual. This view point has caused much pain and suffering. When a gay person "converts", s(he) is really just hiding the fact of their gayness. Then, to prove to their religous leaders and family, they get married to the opposite sex. The attraction never goes away, and eventually they lose control and have an affair with a a person of the same sex. A long, painful divorce happens, and its even more messey if kids are involved. So by convincing gays to "convert", priests are causing much pain and suffering, which leads to adultry, which I believe is in the commandments. If God hates gays, I don't think I'd enjoy spending time with him.And the point of my post about Pope Urban II is that obivously this guy accepts Jesus, and after doing all these awful things, he still gets to go to heaven? What a place. Also, why did God need to vreate us in the first place? If he were perfect, he wouldn't need us. And if he were all powerful, how come he couldn't make the devil disapear with a wave of his metaphysical hand? If he if perfect, why couldn't he make us perfect? -------------------- Most Important Questions: Why does one sock go missing? What is the purpose of meaning? What is the purpose of girls? What happened to the other one? Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Sunday, April 17 2005 17:10
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quote:I disagree. If God didn't want people to be gay, as it says in the Bible, he wouldn't create them to be hetrosexual or homosexual. That's a decision people make by themselves. quote:Because we'd all be rulers of the universe next to him. God created Adam and Eve sinless and faultless, but their human nature caused them to sin, and therefore mankind because imperfect. Only God can forgive us of our sins. I think God created people in the first place because he wanted companionship. It would be no fun to be the absolute ruler of everything, which is nothing. He gave humans souls and spirits, so they could accept him, worship him, and spread his word. However, the Devil, after trying to overpower God, was out of heaven and into sin, so he still trys to win souls of people, which he does by keeping people from believing in God with all their various doubts. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Sunday, April 17 2005 17:38
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quote:You don't know any homosexuals do you? Most say it is not a choice. I didn't choose to be heterosexual, I just am. It applies to most people. It's instinct, not choice. quote:If God created people sinless and faultless they would not have sinned. To sin is a fault, a weakness shall I say. It is a contradiction to say humans were created perfect and than to say they were imperfect enough to sin. quote:You are saying all the people who don't believe in God (or the Christian God that is) are under the influence of the Devil? This discounts free will entirely. Free will means that we have the ability to think for ourselves. If free will exists than people would be able to make such choice under their own influence. For that matter people who don't follow your God don't necessarily believe in the Devil either. [ Sunday, April 17, 2005 17:40: Message edited by: Dolphin ] -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
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written Monday, April 18 2005 02:01
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quote:I did not say that. I said that your God created sinners intentionally and consciously, according to your religion. I also do not believe in heaven or hell, so that is completely irrelevant. Believing that God is both omnipotent and merciful, in my opinion, is a paradoxal religious view. quote:What you feel is simply faith, not the will of God. quote:A worthy effort to riposte my words. quote:Nearly. If there is a God, which I see as impossible, then He either decides to remain silent or constantly lies. It's striking how much of His own laws God breaks. quote:How much do God's children suffer before they finally die? quote:If you are so stubborn and ignoring, I will stop arguing about this. quote:You have no proof that this "peculiar sensation" is not just a simple psychological phenomenon. If God exists, your claim is not necessarily correct. quote:Then why is a ceremonial burial so melancholic? quote:If you ask me to regard the subject as a religious person, my answer is yes. However, the fact that God creates murderers does not mean that they do not need to be imprisoned for our safety. quote:Do homosexuals disadvantage you in any way, short-sighted idiot? Discrimination is illegal. You should be cautious. quote:Again, your using an argument which we proved to be invalid. quote:And again, the Bible is used as the "proof" for this statement. quote:God does not simply allow suffering to happen: He is the cause of it. quote:Oops. I accidentally committed genocide. quote:This is paradoxal. quote:If God didn't want people to be sadistic, cruel and sinful, as it says in the Bible, he wouldn't create them. Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5550
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written Monday, April 18 2005 02:49
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Being gay is being born, not a choice. Why would people want to be gay? Because of the discrimination? The fact you're teenage years will be miserable? The possiblity of your family disowning you? The fact that your religous leader will dispiese you or try to "convert" you? Some choice. -------------------- Most Important Questions: Why does one sock go missing? What is the purpose of meaning? What is the purpose of girls? What happened to the other one? Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, April 18 2005 03:36
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quote:He wasn't talking to you, and he's not on the side of religion in this argument. Keep track of who's arguing what, please. -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5721
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written Monday, April 18 2005 04:08
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I don't... *Feels out of place* Posts: 5 | Registered: Monday, April 18 2005 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Monday, April 18 2005 16:46
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That's because you probably haven't read the topic yet (in it's entirety, which is getting longer and longer). So we're back to talking about homosexuals. No, I don't know any homosexials and they haven't disadvantages me per se, but I'm just telling you it was a wrong thing to do. I'm sure many of you are hetrosexual and have nothing to do with homosexuals, but you still argue to defend them. So stop criticizing me for that. quote:There you go. You see that homosexuality is against Christianity. Therefore it's against God, and, since God is perfect, it's a bad and perverse thing to do. tMind - My "Binary Code" is actually binary for 4808. [ Monday, April 18, 2005 16:48: Message edited by: 1001011001000 ] -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Monday, April 18 2005 17:08
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The bible isn't always as clear-cut on the issue as the NIV is, and a look at the KJV reveals the infamous "the effiminate, and the abusers of themselves with mankind" phrase, which is open to a lot more interpretation. The phrase is commonly interpreted to refer to homosexuals, and clearly the NIV interprets it as such, but translation is always at least partially interpretation. (EDIT: On the other hand, I'm somewhat annoyed by how some more liberal-seeming bibles would translate the phrase. "A person who does sex sins, (...) or people who do sex sins with their own sex" seems silly.) Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Monday, April 18 2005 17:12
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quote:Have a taste of your own medicine, Mind. ;) -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Monday, April 18 2005 17:19
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I quote from here: Religion.... quote: -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Monday, April 18 2005 17:35
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quote:There is some evidence to suggest that homosexual males have certain hormone levels of heterosexual females and vice versa. There is a physiological, a chemical or physical difference, in the neurology of homosexuals. Many behaviors are like this and are pretty much beyond our control. More serious cases, like skitzophrenea or bipolar disorder, require treatment. Homosexuality used to be considered a disease. I'm not saying that it should be classified as one, but it has phisiological causes, which a person cannot control. How then do you reconcile real scientific results with your statement? -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Monday, April 18 2005 17:58
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quote:I will be kind and resist calling you an idiot, but you certainly are shortsighted. I can only assume you too young to understand anything outside your box you call the bible. -------------------- Nena Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, April 18 2005 18:55
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There have been many, many people who were, by our standards, psychotic. They have at times committed horrific crimes in the name of God based on the divine communication given to them and only to them. Unless you too are insane (by my standards, admittedly, but I think society at large agrees), you will say that these people were crazy. They were probably also sick. Now I won't say that all experiences of contact with the divine are insanity, but what quantitative difference is there between what you experience religiously and what they do besides the result? —Alorael, who would also like to point out that enough people somehow talk to God while following different religions that there is an obvious inherent problem with trusting such communication. Even if you only take the ones who are urged or encouraged to act righteously, how can you claim that your messages are true while other messages are false without falling back on circular logic based on the Bible? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
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written Tuesday, April 19 2005 06:27
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quote:If God is omnipotent, why does he not eliminate the devil? quote:That is irrelevant. The suffering happening to God's creations is purposeless, anyhow. quote:If that was the case, I would not even point out that my argument was ignored. If there was no suffering, compassion would not be necessary. Also, you cannot learn to empathize others. quote:Hope. quote:Psychopats are born without empathy. quote:I sincerely apologize for my arrogance, but I cannot tolerate that you discriminate homosexuals with such nonsensical excuse. As a side note, a member of my family is a homosexual. quote:You might not be aware, but something which is proved to be wrong cannot be valid. quote:If the devil can simulate to be God, as you postulate, than how can you be so certain the author of the Bible was spiritually inspired? He could also have been inspired by the devil, or simply by himself. The latter statement, obviously, is the most logical one. quote:This is not even an argument. I will retain my viewpoint that faith can impossibly be rationally explained. Faith is an intuitive perspective, unconsciously used as a source of naive hope. [ Tuesday, April 19, 2005 07:13: Message edited by: Mind ] Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4784
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written Tuesday, April 19 2005 09:14
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quote:Because the Bible has unrivaled documentation. There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament most available for inspection now. Norman Geisler makes several key observations for consideration: No other book is even a close second to the Bible on either the number or early dating of the copies. The average secular work from antiquity survives on only a handful of manuscripts; the New Testament boasts thousands. The average gap between the original composition and the earliest copy is over 1,000 years for other books. The New Testament, however, has a fragment within one generation from its original composition, whole books within about 100 years from the time of the autograph [original manuscript], most of the New Testament in less than 200 years, and the entire New Testament within 250 years from the date of its completion. The degree of accuracy of the copies is greater for the New Testament than for other books that can be compared. Most books do not survive with enough manuscripts that make comparison possible. From this documentary evidence, then, it is clear that the New Testament writings are superior to comparable ancient writings. "The records for the New Testament are vastly more abundant, clearly more ancient, and considerably more accurate in their text." In addition to the many thousands of New Testament manuscripts, there are over 86,000 quotations of the New Testament in the early church fathers. There are also New Testament quotations in thousands of early church Lectionaries (worship books). There are enough quotations from the early church fathers that even if we did not have a single copy of the Bible, scholars could still reconstruct all but 11 verses of the entire New Testament from material written within 150 to 200 years from the time of Christ. The Dead Sea Scrolls prove the accuracy of the transmission of the Old Testament. In fact, in these scrolls discovered at Qumran in 1947, we have Old Testament manuscripts that date about a thousand years earlier (150 B.C.) than the other Old Testament manuscripts then in our possession (which dated to A.D. 900). A full copy of the Book of Isaiah was discovered at Qumran. Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text. The 5 percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling. The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the copyists of biblical manuscripts took great care in going about their work. These copyists knew(believed) they were duplicating God's Word, so they went to incredible lengths to prevent error from creeping into their work. The scribes carefully counted every line, word, syllable, and letter to ensure accuracy. tAlo- I'm sorry, I don't understand how you get "God can't be perfect because he is perfect." from "God's particular tyranny is not tyrannical because God is perfect." Is it that I can't use a 'He is too!' to Mind's 'He is not!'? Then I say tyrany doesn't have to mean imperfect. Most forms of government (including communism) work on paper. The problems arise when the leaders become corrupt. I say that God cannot be corrupted, therefore he can be a perfect tyrant. RE:"Even if the Bible does contain the word of God, why isn't he lying to you? It may be for your own inexplicable good!" If it was God's intent to write a book of fiction for his creations to fight over, then he is cruel and sadistic, indeed! If it is so then I doubt it will matter much what we do with this life because with a cruel and sadistic tyrant, Heaven will be just as bad as Hell if either really exsists. So since that belief would make all life meaningless, I choose not to believe it and increase my faith instead in what brings hope, meaning, and purpose. [ Tuesday, April 19, 2005 09:57: Message edited by: Gizmo ] -------------------- Forever Always on Past the End tracihedlund@charter.net[/url] TrueSite for Blades - Blades Walkthroughs Pixle Profusion - BoE Graphics Archive Posts: 563 | Registered: Tuesday, July 27 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, April 19 2005 09:46
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quote:That's not the problem. The NT could be copied with extremely high accuracy from the time of the first written copy, but that first copy was written some time after the events it recorded. quote:That's more meaningful, but how early are these early church fathers and how reliable are the quotations of said fathers quoting NT? quote:And even the Dead Sea Scrolls were penned long after the events of the OT. Copyist accuracy is good, but there's still no evidence that the original was accurate or even factually based. Thuryl's point stands. [Edit: Saying God's tyranny is not tyrannical because God is perfect presupposes God's perfection, which is the subject under debate. If you don't start with that assumption, his tyranny is of course by nature tyrannical. Only by assuming that God is incorruptible and infinitely good can you prove that his reign is good, and that circular logic holds no water with anyone who disagrees with you.] —Alorael, who also would say that the errors in translation are far more likely to introduce changes in meaning than errors in copying. If Moses could get horns of light, as absurd as that seems, what else could have changed in nonsensical ways? Even if you have no understanding of Hebrew yourself, a quick comparison of, for example, the KJV and NRSV will show how different translations can be. [ Tuesday, April 19, 2005 09:50: Message edited by: Justice by Travesty ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Tuesday, April 19 2005 10:09
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I would just like to say a couple things. Ben, you are a lagot. Mind, you are also a lagot. Gizmo, you clearly do not know the meaning of the word "tyrant". That is all. -------------------- The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) Famous Last Words - A local pop-punk band They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, April 19 2005 10:32
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Stories can get severely garbled within days. Thirty years is plenty of time for legends to grow from nothing. So I should put implicit faith in a story for which we only have fragments of 30-year-later copies of accounts written 30 years after the events they describe, just because all other ancient documents are so much worse? With this kind of logic, I could expect to sell this nice parchment deed to the Brooklyn Bridge, as long as I put it in a window display along with a pack of counterfeit bills made by a kid with a black crayon on green construction paper. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
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written Tuesday, April 19 2005 10:36
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quote:Exactly what is "lagot" supposed to mean? [ Tuesday, April 19, 2005 10:36: Message edited by: Mind ] Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5550
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written Tuesday, April 19 2005 11:58
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Scientific studies have shown that when people are praying or participating in religous ceremony, their brain gets flooded by endorphins, the "feel good" hormone of the body. This also happens when one eats or hangs outside on a sunny day. This is the "holy spirit" that keeps on being used as proof. -------------------- Most Important Questions: Why does one sock go missing? What is the purpose of meaning? What is the purpose of girls? What happened to the other one? Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, April 19 2005 12:06
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quote:Well, maybe the big G is flooding their minds with endorphins as a reward for their behavior? :) I felt the same way back when I was way more Christian than I am now (deist me). I felt the same way when I told my fiancee that I loved her the first time, as well as when I asked her to marry me. In retrospect, I don't think it's the Holy Spirit - unless it's the holy spirit I'm feeling every time I orgasm. [ Tuesday, April 19, 2005 12:09: Message edited by: andrew miller ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
