Do you think there is a Hell?

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AuthorTopic: Do you think there is a Hell?
...b10010b...
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Surely it's possible to want something without having the ability to take action to fulfil that want.

If, as you say, we need to be perfect, why not make us perfect in the first place?

[ Sunday, April 17, 2005 02:48: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

Spoiling a child will not make it happy, which is what you are saying God should do for us. We can only become perfectly happy when we become perfect.
Spoiling a child makes it happy. The eventual consequences make it unhappy. God is both capable of "spoiling" us indefinitely so that we never suffer for it and able to spoil us far more carefully than any human parent.

quote:
Suffering is the denial of a want, whether it is 'I want that toy' or 'I want you to stop hurting me'. How can a being that doesn't have any free will want anything?
Free will isn't consciousness, as Thuryl pointed out. And for that matter, God could give us enough free will to choose our own kind of happiness while still preventing unhappiness. If God is omnipotent and omniscient, that shouldn't be an impossible task at all.

—Alorael, who believes God did create humans perfectly happy and almost perfect. The problems started with a faux pas in Eden. That seems a little bit like a setup by God too, though.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
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Now that you mention it, Alo, I brought the Garden of Eden up at Desp.

quote:
Originally written by The Almighty Doer of Stuff:

Secondly, the creation story of Adam and Eve. This is what happened in 10th grade English class while we were studying creation myths (when I say "myth" I refer to any and all stories about any given religion and in no way intend to imply falsity). The teacher said he had to leave the room. He put his bag of stuff on a desk in the middle of the room and said "Do whatever you want while I'm gone, but don't touch the bag in the middle of the room!" then left. People did stuff, threw things, etc. Inevitably, someone opens the bag. The teacher, who was secretly watching through the window in the door, bursts in and says "Aha! I caught you!" Then he told us the meaning of the exercise and its relation to what we were about to study, which was the creation myth of Adam and Eve.

God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, and said "I'm going away now. Do whatever you want, but whatever you do, don't eat the shiny red fruit on the big pretty tree right in the middle of the Garden!" They did whatever and ate whatever and whatever, and inevitably they ate the fruit, and got shows up and says "Aha! I caught you!"

Where am I going with this, you wonder? God is omniscient, correct? Therefore, knowing that red is the color that attracts the most attention, that big things attract more attention than smaller things, and that humans are naturally curious creatures, and, even disregarding the previous three points, being all-knowing, he must have known beforehand that Adam and Eve were going eat from the tree. Therefore, either the Bible is not telling you the whole truth when it says God didn't want them to eat from the tree, or it's not telling you the whole truth when it says God is infallible.

Therefore, either way, the Bible is lying to you.

[ Sunday, April 17, 2005 07:46: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ]

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Someone said that if gays were truely Christian, they would become heterosexual. This view point has caused much pain and suffering. When a gay person "converts", s(he) is really just hiding the fact of their gayness. Then, to prove to their religous leaders and family, they get married to the opposite sex. The attraction never goes away, and eventually they lose control and have an affair with a a person of the same sex. A long, painful divorce happens, and its even more messey if kids are involved. So by convincing gays to "convert", priests are causing much pain and suffering, which leads to adultry, which I believe is in the commandments. If God hates gays, I don't think I'd enjoy spending time with him.And the point of my post about Pope Urban II is that obivously this guy accepts Jesus, and after doing all these awful things, he still gets to go to heaven? What a place. Also, why did God need to vreate us in the first place? If he were perfect, he wouldn't need us. And if he were all powerful, how come he couldn't make the devil disapear with a wave of his metaphysical hand? If he if perfect, why couldn't he make us perfect?

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Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00
Master
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quote:
Originally written by Gizmo:
Being 'gay', I believe, is the way you're born.
I disagree. If God didn't want people to be gay, as it says in the Bible, he wouldn't create them to be hetrosexual or homosexual. That's a decision people make by themselves.
quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion:
Also, why did God need to vreate us in the first place? If he were perfect, he wouldn't need us. And if he were all powerful, how come he couldn't make the devil disapear with a wave of his metaphysical hand? If he if perfect, why couldn't he make us perfect?
Because we'd all be rulers of the universe next to him.

God created Adam and Eve sinless and faultless, but their human nature caused them to sin, and therefore mankind because imperfect. Only God can forgive us of our sins. I think God created people in the first place because he wanted companionship. It would be no fun to be the absolute ruler of everything, which is nothing. He gave humans souls and spirits, so they could accept him, worship him, and spread his word. However, the Devil, after trying to overpower God, was out of heaven and into sin, so he still trys to win souls of people, which he does by keeping people from believing in God with all their various doubts.

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quote:
originally written by 1001011001000:
I disagree. If God didn't want people to be gay, as it says in the Bible, he wouldn't create them to be hetrosexual or homosexual. That's a decision people make by themselves.

You don't know any homosexuals do you? Most say it is not a choice. I didn't choose to be heterosexual, I just am. It applies to most people. It's instinct, not choice.

quote:
God created Adam and Eve sinless and faultless, but their human nature caused them to sin, and therefore mankind because imperfect. Only God can forgive us of our sins.
If God created people sinless and faultless they would not have sinned. To sin is a fault, a weakness shall I say. It is a contradiction to say humans were created perfect and than to say they were imperfect enough to sin.

quote:
the Devil, after trying to overpower God, was out of heaven and into sin, so he still trys to win souls of people, which he does by keeping people from believing in God with all their various doubts.
You are saying all the people who don't believe in God (or the Christian God that is) are under the influence of the Devil? This discounts free will entirely. Free will means that we have the ability to think for ourselves. If free will exists than people would be able to make such choice under their own influence. For that matter people who don't follow your God don't necessarily believe in the Devil either.

[ Sunday, April 17, 2005 17:40: Message edited by: Dolphin ]

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion
So you are saying that a comepletely evil person who believes that by killing and destroying people that he is doing Jesus's and God's will will go to heaven?
I did not say that. I said that your God created sinners intentionally and consciously, according to your religion.

I also do not believe in heaven or hell, so that is completely irrelevant.

Believing that God is both omnipotent and merciful, in my opinion, is a paradoxal religious view.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Aside from sensical not being a word... It makes sense to me. I very often have a physical tingling sensation when I worship, pray, read the Bible, and write stuff like this. I have felt it over and over and over. I cannot, by my own power, replicate the feeling, but it has been replicated so often that I cannot scientifically deny the connection. I do A, B happens. Again and again and again. Cause and effect. I cannot show it to you but it is proof to me.
What you feel is simply faith, not the will of God.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Now it is you who presumes to know the will of God.
A worthy effort to riposte my words.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Or is this just you saying 'There is no God. He does not talk.'?
Nearly.

If there is a God, which I see as impossible, then He either decides to remain silent or constantly lies.

It's striking how much of His own laws God breaks.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
[If]God exsists, then so does an afterlife. Any innocent who lived on the earth would be swept away to this afterlife, thus they are not really dead. And other than children and mentally handicapped, there are no innocents
How much do God's children suffer before they finally die?

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Because it still applies. What good is being capable of compassion if we never learn to use it? It is a desireable quality in one's character. One God wishes us to develop.
If you are so stubborn and ignoring, I will stop arguing about this.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
[If] God doesn't exsist then you are right. [If] God does exsist then you are wrong. I have my own proof... what is yours?
You have no proof that this "peculiar sensation" is not just a simple psychological phenomenon.

If God exists, your claim is not necessarily correct.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Possibly, but it does not change all the lives her death has 'advantaged'.
Then why is a ceremonial burial so melancholic?

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
This is also a cop out. You formed your comment to me on the basis that God does exsist, and I formed my question of you on the basis that God does exsist. Please form your answer on the basis that God exsists.
If you ask me to regard the subject as a religious person, my answer is yes. However, the fact that God creates murderers does not mean that they do not need to be imprisoned for our safety.

quote:
Originally written by Binary Code
As for gays, I'm sure God frowns down upon them, but if they truly believed in God, I think they could get to heaven. On the other hand, if they truly believed in God and the Bible, they would stop their homosexual behavior. So, I'm going to say it would be hard for a gay to be a good Christian and a lot harder to earn their ticket to heaven.
Do homosexuals disadvantage you in any way, short-sighted idiot?

Discrimination is illegal. You should be cautious.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Man is fallible, man is corruptable, man cannot compare to God.
Again, your using an argument which we proved to be invalid.

quote:
Originally written by The Creator
It seems that how you treat the 'brothers of the king' is going to have a big impact on your afterlife. Just as well that he lets them suffer, isn't it?
And again, the Bible is used as the "proof" for this statement.

quote:
Originally written by An Unworthy Assiociate
Although God has the power to stop wars, senseless wars continue unabated. Although God has the power to stop the dictators, he does not.
God does not simply allow suffering to happen: He is the cause of it.

quote:
Originally written by Khoth
One genocide can be an accident.
Oops. I accidentally committed genocide.

quote:
Originally written by Binary Code
God created Adam and Eve sinless and faultless, but their human nature caused them to sin.
This is paradoxal.

quote:
Originally written by Binary Code
I disagree. If God didn't want people to be gay, as it says in the Bible, he wouldn't create them to be hetrosexual or homosexual.
If God didn't want people to be sadistic, cruel and sinful, as it says in the Bible, he wouldn't create them.
Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00
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Being gay is being born, not a choice. Why would people want to be gay? Because of the discrimination? The fact you're teenage years will be miserable? The possiblity of your family disowning you? The fact that your religous leader will dispiese you or try to "convert" you? Some choice.

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Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00
...b10010b...
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quote:
Originally written by Mind:

quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion
So you are saying that a comepletely evil person who believes that by killing and destroying people that he is doing Jesus's and God's will will go to heaven?
I did not say that. I said that your God created sinners intentionally and consciously, according to your religion.

He wasn't talking to you, and he's not on the side of religion in this argument. Keep track of who's arguing what, please.

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I don't...

*Feels out of place*
Posts: 5 | Registered: Monday, April 18 2005 07:00
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That's because you probably haven't read the topic yet (in it's entirety, which is getting longer and longer).

So we're back to talking about homosexuals. No, I don't know any homosexials and they haven't disadvantages me per se, but I'm just telling you it was a wrong thing to do. I'm sure many of you are hetrosexual and have nothing to do with homosexuals, but you still argue to defend them. So stop criticizing me for that.

quote:
1 Corinthians 6:8-10:
8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

There you go. You see that homosexuality is against Christianity. Therefore it's against God, and, since God is perfect, it's a bad and perverse thing to do.

tMind - My "Binary Code" is actually binary for 4808.

[ Monday, April 18, 2005 16:48: Message edited by: 1001011001000 ]

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-ben4808

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The bible isn't always as clear-cut on the issue as the NIV is, and a look at the KJV reveals the infamous "the effiminate, and the abusers of themselves with mankind" phrase, which is open to a lot more interpretation.

The phrase is commonly interpreted to refer to homosexuals, and clearly the NIV interprets it as such, but translation is always at least partially interpretation.

(EDIT: On the other hand, I'm somewhat annoyed by how some more liberal-seeming bibles would translate the phrase. "A person who does sex sins, (...) or people who do sex sins with their own sex" seems silly.)
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Master
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quote:
Originally written by Mind:

quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion
So you are saying that a comepletely evil person who believes that by killing and destroying people that he is doing Jesus's and God's will will go to heaven?
I did not say that. I said that your God created sinners intentionally and consciously, according to your religion.

I also do not believe in heaven or hell, so that is completely irrelevant.

Believing that God is both omnipotent and merciful, in my opinion, is a paradoxal religious view.


That's because you've never known anything to be omnipotent and merciful, but God is.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Aside from sensical not being a word... It makes sense to me. I very often have a physical tingling sensation when I worship, pray, read the Bible, and write stuff like this. I have felt it over and over and over. I cannot, by my own power, replicate the feeling, but it has been replicated so often that I cannot scientifically deny the connection. I do A, B happens. Again and again and again. Cause and effect. I cannot show it to you but it is proof to me.
What you feel is simply faith, not the will of God.

What she feels is simply the will of God.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Now it is you who presumes to know the will of God.
A worthy effort to riposte my words.

Nobody ever know the exact will of God, but like Gizmo said, he can give us clues.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Or is this just you saying 'There is no God. He does not talk.'?
Nearly.

If there is a God, which I see as impossible, then He either decides to remain silent or constantly lies.

It's striking how much of His own laws God breaks.


Sure, the Devil does. Maybe that's because that's where you hear all those lies. Just because he remains silent sometimes means he lies when he speaks? It doesn't make sense.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
[If]God exsists, then so does an afterlife. Any innocent who lived on the earth would be swept away to this afterlife, thus they are not really dead. And other than children and mentally handicapped, there are no innocents
How much do God's children suffer before they finally die?

Not near as much as they would have in hell.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Because it still applies. What good is being capable of compassion if we never learn to use it? It is a desireable quality in one's character. One God wishes us to develop.
If you are so stubborn and ignoring, I will stop arguing about this.

You just can't think of a good argument for it because it's so true.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
[If] God doesn't exsist then you are right. [If] God does exsist then you are wrong. I have my own proof... what is yours?
You have no proof that this "peculiar sensation" is not just a simple psychological phenomenon.

If God exists, your claim is not necessarily correct.


It happens often when she prays. You can't attribute every spiritual anomaly to a pshychological phenomenon. Tell me exactly which one this must be.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Possibly, but it does not change all the lives her death has 'advantaged'.
Then why is a ceremonial burial so melancholic?

Think of how many people that person might have brought to Jesus and ultimately to heaven with them.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
This is also a cop out. You formed your comment to me on the basis that God does exsist, and I formed my question of you on the basis that God does exsist. Please form your answer on the basis that God exsists.
If you ask me to regard the subject as a religious person, my answer is yes. However, the fact that God creates murderers does not mean that they do not need to be imprisoned for our safety.

God created people that choose to be murderers instead of law-abiding citizens. It's really there fault. It's a good example of free will.

quote:
Originally written by Binary Code
As for gays, I'm sure God frowns down upon them, but if they truly believed in God, I think they could get to heaven. On the other hand, if they truly believed in God and the Bible, they would stop their homosexual behavior. So, I'm going to say it would be hard for a gay to be a good Christian and a lot harder to earn their ticket to heaven.
Do homosexuals disadvantage you in any way, short-sighted idiot?

Discrimination is illegal. You should be cautious.


Don't call me a short-sighted idiot and read my above post.

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo
Man is fallible, man is corruptable, man cannot compare to God.
Again, your using an argument which we proved to be invalid.

But it's true.

quote:
Originally written by The Creator
It seems that how you treat the 'brothers of the king' is going to have a big impact on your afterlife. Just as well that he lets them suffer, isn't it?
And again, the Bible is used as the "proof" for this statement.

So it is.

quote:
Originally written by An Unworthy Assiociate
Although God has the power to stop wars, senseless wars continue unabated. Although God has the power to stop the dictators, he does not.
God does not simply allow suffering to happen: He is the cause of it.

An invalid assumption.

quote:
Originally written by Khoth
One genocide can be an accident.
Oops. I accidentally committed genocide.

Whoops.

quote:
Originally written by Binary Code
God created Adam and Eve sinless and faultless, but their human nature caused them to sin.
This is paradoxal.

I meant that they hadn't yet sinned and neither had mankind, but that didn't mean they weren't capable of sin. They were humans.

quote:
Originally written by Binary Code
I disagree. If God didn't want people to be gay, as it says in the Bible, he wouldn't create them to be hetrosexual or homosexual.
If God didn't want people to be sadistic, cruel and sinful, as it says in the Bible, he wouldn't create them.

God wants people to refrain from homosexuality.
Have a taste of your own medicine, Mind. ;)

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I quote from here:
Religion....

quote:
originally written by Cavanoskus:

1 Corinthians 6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind...

The word effeminate here is translated from the Greek word malakoi which is traditionally translated in English as "effeminate." It may mean exactly that (unmanly or lacking virility), or it could also mean "soft." Paul was a Jewish theologian. Someone from a Jewish background would consider "unmanly" or "effeminate" behavior etc. to be unacceptable. Greeks did not feel this way about effeminate behavior. However the part of this that is actually used against homosexuals in today’s Fundamentalist Christian society is the part that refers to “abusers of themselves with mankind”. The Greek word used for this is arsenokoitai. This word is made up of two parts, arsen, meaning “man," and koitai, meaning "beds." An ancient pre-Christian translation of the Old Testament into Greek translated the Hebrew word qadesh as arsenokoitai. We already know the meaning of quadesh from before. It meant male temple prostitute. Some leaders in the early Christian church also thought it meant temple prostitutes.

quote:“Some authorities believe that it simply means male prostitutes with female customers -- a practice which appears to have been a common practice in the Roman empire. One source refers to other writings which contained the word arsenokoitai: (Sibylline Oracles 2.70-77, Acts of John; Theophilus of Antioch Ad Autolycum). They suggest that the term refers ‘to some kind of economic exploitation by means of sex (but not necessarily homosexual sex).’ Probably ‘pimp’ or ‘man living off of the avails of prostitution’ would be the closest English translations. It is worth noting that ‘Much Greek homosexual erotic literature has survived, none of it contains the word arsenokoitai.’”

There are others who believe it means “masturbators”. Also some that believe the word refers to catamites (a boy or young male who engaged in sexual activities with older men -- these were usually slaves). Now there are so many different theories about the word because the original meaning has been lost. There is no way to know what it is actually referring to, but I am certain that it does not refer to consensual, committed homosexual relations as we know them today.


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quote:
I disagree. If God didn't want people to be gay, as it says in the Bible, he wouldn't create them to be hetrosexual or homosexual. That's a decision people make by themselves.
There is some evidence to suggest that homosexual males have certain hormone levels of heterosexual females and vice versa. There is a physiological, a chemical or physical difference, in the neurology of homosexuals.

Many behaviors are like this and are pretty much beyond our control. More serious cases, like skitzophrenea or bipolar disorder, require treatment. Homosexuality used to be considered a disease. I'm not saying that it should be classified as one, but it has phisiological causes, which a person cannot control.

How then do you reconcile real scientific results with your statement?

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quote:
Originally written by 1001011001000:

Don't call me a short-sighted idiot and read my above post.
I will be kind and resist calling you an idiot, but you certainly are shortsighted. I can only assume you too young to understand anything outside your box you call the bible.

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There have been many, many people who were, by our standards, psychotic. They have at times committed horrific crimes in the name of God based on the divine communication given to them and only to them.

Unless you too are insane (by my standards, admittedly, but I think society at large agrees), you will say that these people were crazy. They were probably also sick. Now I won't say that all experiences of contact with the divine are insanity, but what quantitative difference is there between what you experience religiously and what they do besides the result?

—Alorael, who would also like to point out that enough people somehow talk to God while following different religions that there is an obvious inherent problem with trusting such communication. Even if you only take the ones who are urged or encouraged to act righteously, how can you claim that your messages are true while other messages are false without falling back on circular logic based on the Bible?
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by 4808:
Sure, the Devil does. Maybe that's because that's where you hear all those lies. Just because he remains silent sometimes means he lies when he speaks? It doesn't make sense.
If God is omnipotent, why does he not eliminate the devil?

quote:
Originally written by 4808:
Not near as much as they would have in hell.
That is irrelevant. The suffering happening to God's creations is purposeless, anyhow.

quote:
Originally written by 4808:
You just can't think of a good argument for it because it's so true.
If that was the case, I would not even point out that my argument was ignored.

If there was no suffering, compassion would not be necessary.

Also, you cannot learn to empathize others.

quote:
Originally written by 4808:
It happens often when she prays. You can't attribute every spiritual anomaly to a pshychological phenomenon. Tell me exactly which one this must be.
Hope.

quote:
Originally written by 4808:
God created people that choose to be murderers instead of law-abiding citizens. It's really there fault. It's a good example of free will.
Psychopats are born without empathy.

quote:
Originally written by 4808:
Don't call me a short-sighted idiot and read my above post.
I sincerely apologize for my arrogance, but I cannot tolerate that you discriminate homosexuals with such nonsensical excuse.

As a side note, a member of my family is a homosexual.

quote:
Originally written by 4808:
But it's true.
You might not be aware, but something which is proved to be wrong cannot be valid.

quote:
Originally written by 4808:
So it is.
If the devil can simulate to be God, as you postulate, than how can you be so certain the author of the Bible was spiritually inspired? He could also have been inspired by the devil, or simply by himself. The latter statement, obviously, is the most logical one.

quote:
Originally written by 4808:
God wants people to refrain from homosexuality.
This is not even an argument.

I will retain my viewpoint that faith can impossibly be rationally explained. Faith is an intuitive perspective, unconsciously used as a source of naive hope.

[ Tuesday, April 19, 2005 07:13: Message edited by: Mind ]
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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
I do not understand how people can pick and choose which parts of the Gospel they want to believe are real.
It makes perfect sense if one sees the Bible as a historical document like any other, shaped by a large number of people with varying influence and intentions over a long period of time. Remember, the Gospels weren't actually put into writing by the disciples to which they're attributed; they're basically a series of traditions which were codified in written form only centuries later. Most myths are known to contain a mixture of historically verifiable aspects and utterly fantastic aspects; why should yours be any different?

Because the Bible has unrivaled documentation.

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament most available for inspection now.

Norman Geisler makes several key observations for consideration:

No other book is even a close second to the Bible on either the number or early dating of the copies. The average secular work from antiquity survives on only a handful of manuscripts; the New Testament boasts thousands.

The average gap between the original composition and the earliest copy is over 1,000 years for other books.

The New Testament, however, has a fragment within one generation from its original composition, whole books within about 100 years from the time of the autograph [original manuscript], most of the New Testament in less than 200 years, and the entire New Testament within 250 years from the date of its completion.

The degree of accuracy of the copies is greater for the New Testament than for other books that can be compared. Most books do not survive with enough manuscripts that make comparison possible.

From this documentary evidence, then, it is clear that the New Testament writings are superior to comparable ancient writings. "The records for the New Testament are vastly more abundant, clearly more ancient, and considerably more accurate in their text."

In addition to the many thousands of New Testament manuscripts, there are over 86,000 quotations of the New Testament in the early church fathers. There are also New Testament quotations in thousands of early church Lectionaries (worship books).

There are enough quotations from the early church fathers that even if we did not have a single copy of the Bible, scholars could still reconstruct all but 11 verses of the entire New Testament from material written within 150 to 200 years from the time of Christ.

The Dead Sea Scrolls prove the accuracy of the transmission of the Old Testament.

In fact, in these scrolls discovered at Qumran in 1947, we have Old Testament manuscripts that date about a thousand years earlier (150 B.C.) than the other Old Testament manuscripts then in our possession (which dated to A.D. 900).

A full copy of the Book of Isaiah was discovered at Qumran.

Even though the two copies of Isaiah discovered in Qumran Cave 1 near the Dead Sea in 1947 were a thousand years earlier than the oldest dated manuscript previously known (A.D. 980), they proved to be word for word identical with our standard Hebrew Bible in more than 95 percent of the text.

The 5 percent of variation consisted chiefly of obvious slips of the pen and variations in spelling.

The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the copyists of biblical manuscripts took great care in going about their work.

These copyists knew(believed) they were duplicating God's Word, so they went to incredible lengths to prevent error from creeping into their work.

The scribes carefully counted every line, word, syllable, and letter to ensure accuracy.

tAlo- I'm sorry, I don't understand how you get "God can't be perfect because he is perfect." from "God's particular tyranny is not tyrannical because God is perfect." Is it that I can't use a 'He is too!' to Mind's 'He is not!'? Then I say tyrany doesn't have to mean imperfect. Most forms of government (including communism) work on paper. The problems arise when the leaders become corrupt. I say that God cannot be corrupted, therefore he can be a perfect tyrant.

RE:"Even if the Bible does contain the word of God, why isn't he lying to you? It may be for your own inexplicable good!"

If it was God's intent to write a book of fiction for his creations to fight over, then he is cruel and sadistic, indeed! If it is so then I doubt it will matter much what we do with this life because with a cruel and sadistic tyrant, Heaven will be just as bad as Hell if either really exsists. So since that belief would make all life meaningless, I choose not to believe it and increase my faith instead in what brings hope, meaning, and purpose.

[ Tuesday, April 19, 2005 09:57: Message edited by: Gizmo ]

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Posts: 563 | Registered: Tuesday, July 27 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #270
quote:
Originally written by Gizmo:

The New Testament, however, has a fragment within one generation from its original composition, whole books within about 100 years from the time of the autograph [original manuscript], most of the New Testament in less than 200 years, and the entire New Testament within 250 years from the date of its completion.
That's not the problem. The NT could be copied with extremely high accuracy from the time of the first written copy, but that first copy was written some time after the events it recorded.

quote:
In addition to the many thousands of New Testament manuscripts, there are over 86,000 quotations of the New Testament in the early church fathers. There are also New Testament quotations in thousands of early church Lectionaries (worship books).
That's more meaningful, but how early are these early church fathers and how reliable are the quotations of said fathers quoting NT?

quote:
In fact, in these scrolls discovered at Qumran in 1947, we have Old Testament manuscripts that date about a thousand years earlier (150 B.C.) than the other Old Testament manuscripts then in our possession (which dated to A.D. 900).
And even the Dead Sea Scrolls were penned long after the events of the OT. Copyist accuracy is good, but there's still no evidence that the original was accurate or even factually based. Thuryl's point stands.

[Edit: Saying God's tyranny is not tyrannical because God is perfect presupposes God's perfection, which is the subject under debate. If you don't start with that assumption, his tyranny is of course by nature tyrannical. Only by assuming that God is incorruptible and infinitely good can you prove that his reign is good, and that circular logic holds no water with anyone who disagrees with you.]

—Alorael, who also would say that the errors in translation are far more likely to introduce changes in meaning than errors in copying. If Moses could get horns of light, as absurd as that seems, what else could have changed in nonsensical ways? Even if you have no understanding of Hebrew yourself, a quick comparison of, for example, the KJV and NRSV will show how different translations can be.

[ Tuesday, April 19, 2005 09:50: Message edited by: Justice by Travesty ]
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #271
I would just like to say a couple things.
Ben, you are a lagot.
Mind, you are also a lagot.
Gizmo, you clearly do not know the meaning of the word "tyrant".
That is all.

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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #272
Stories can get severely garbled within days. Thirty years is plenty of time for legends to grow from nothing. So I should put implicit faith in a story for which we only have fragments of 30-year-later copies of accounts written 30 years after the events they describe, just because all other ancient documents are so much worse? With this kind of logic, I could expect to sell this nice parchment deed to the Brooklyn Bridge, as long as I put it in a window display along with a pack of counterfeit bills made by a kid with a black crayon on green construction paper.

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Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 4214
Profile #273
quote:
Originally written by The Almighty Doer of Stuff:

I would just like to say a couple things.
Ben, you are a lagot.
Mind, you are also a lagot.
Gizmo, you clearly do not know the meaning of the word "tyrant".
That is all.

Exactly what is "lagot" supposed to mean?

[ Tuesday, April 19, 2005 10:36: Message edited by: Mind ]
Posts: 356 | Registered: Tuesday, April 6 2004 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5550
Profile Homepage #274
Scientific studies have shown that when people are praying or participating in religous ceremony, their brain gets flooded by endorphins, the "feel good" hormone of the body. This also happens when one eats or hangs outside on a sunny day. This is the "holy spirit" that keeps on being used as proof.

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Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #275
quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion:

Scientific studies have shown that when people are praying or participating in religous ceremony, their brain gets flooded by endorphins, the "feel good" hormone of the body. This also happens when one eats or hangs outside on a sunny day. This is the "holy spirit" that keeps on being used as proof.
Well, maybe the big G is flooding their minds with endorphins as a reward for their behavior? :)

I felt the same way back when I was way more Christian than I am now (deist me). I felt the same way when I told my fiancee that I loved her the first time, as well as when I asked her to marry me. In retrospect, I don't think it's the Holy Spirit - unless it's the holy spirit I'm feeling every time I orgasm.

[ Tuesday, April 19, 2005 12:09: Message edited by: andrew miller ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00

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