Do you think there is a Hell?

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AuthorTopic: Do you think there is a Hell?
Master
Member # 1046
Profile Homepage #75
quote:
Originally written by Mr.knowitall:

And no Wise man we are not only talking about"Christian's heaven", but like I said before you all know if there is hell or heaven as soon as you pass away.....
The real heaven does not exist. The real hell is real life. Your point?

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Polaris - Weather balloons, ninjas, and your big daddy Wise Man. What more could you want?
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Posts: 3323 | Registered: Thursday, April 25 2002 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5619
Profile Homepage #76
quote:
Originally written by Wise Man is quite the:

quote:
Originally written by Mr.knowitall:

And no Wise man we are not only talking about"Christian's heaven", but like I said before you all know if there is hell or heaven as soon as you pass away.....
The real heaven does not exist. The real hell is real life. Your point?

I not trying to make a point here for your information, and what is your point saying real hell is real life.

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If you fail to plan, you plan to fail.
Posts: 90 | Registered: Wednesday, March 23 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5550
Profile Homepage #77
I find it hard to believe Christian Doctrine because of the hypocrisy of so many Christians. Example:

Priest: Today, I wish to focus this sermon on tolerance. Jesus taught tolerance, compassion and respect. Thus we should try to follow these pricipals in our daily lives.

Person: Hello, I am a homosexual and

Priest: Get out of my church! You are a blasphemer by existing. Your presence sickens me.
Now if you will excuse me, I have to meet a young boy in the back room.

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Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #78
I am a Quaker - or consider myself one - for precisely that reason. The Society of Friends does not turn away homosexuals; it used to marry them before people started getting a fire under their backsides about that in the 50s.

It's a lot closer to the message of Jesus than the entire bowing-scraping-following deal most Christians got.

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Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Warrior
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Which is one of the reasons why I respect Quakers a lot more than I do most other Christians.

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Most Important Questions:
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Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #80
quote:
Originally written by ben2:

But they don't realize that Jesus is the one that created them and that made is possible for them to go to heaven. You can't get to heaven only by good works.
The Catholic Church (before it was the Catholic Church) disagreed, and it maintained that disagreement through the Reformation. I'm not on top of modern Catholic theology, but there's still a strong implication that whether or not you can be saved by works remains a question.

I'd like to see the scripture behind the arguments. I tried to find some for myself online and what I found wasn't convincing.

quote:
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. 
Isaiah 64
And it continues. I get a sense that humans are less than nothing compared to God, but the entire passage is a lament mostly unrelated to the argument. It's also not about damnation or salvation, as the Old Testament tends not to address that issue so strongly.

quote:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2
This is the famous passage, but it's not clear. Again, it strikes me as a warning against pride because great accomplishments do not lead to salvation. Whether good works are "works" is, in my skeptical mind, debatable. The following verses are concerned with changes in practices, notably waiving the requirement of circumcision.

And then, to muddy everything further:

quote:
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 
Titus 3:5

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. 
James 2:26

The first of those is the first clear declaration that good works aren't necessary. It isn't specifically spelled out that faith saves rather than ritual, but at least the works are out. James then disagrees strongly: it may not be works alone that save, but they're a necessary component.

And two more:

quote:
The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight. 
Proverbs 15:8

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination. Proverbs 28:9

Cited as signs that God rejects those who are not saved by faith. I don't really like judging this without translating the Hebrew, but doesn't "wicked" imply deeds rather than faith? Similarly, turning away from law is a comment on behavior, not thought. Proverbs is from the Old Testament, and thought-crime wasn't fashionable back then.

—Alorael, who will stop now and wait for someone to either argue or find better scripture denying the value of works and affirming salvation through faith.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 5450
Profile Homepage #81
Took me a while to read that one, Alorael. I don't think that doing 'good works' and nothing else equals a ticket to heaven, nor do I think that only faith constitutes a heavenly eternity. A good example of some-one doing both would be Ned Flanders off The Simpsons, and he seems to be in favour with God. But back on topic. Those passages you put in to your post were interesting to read, and I think that you prove a fair point.

Just out of curiosity, where did you get the quotes from?

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Polaris
Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #82
http://www.carm.org/bibleonline.htm. I believe it's the King James Version.

—Alorael, who can understand why God made everything clear-cut in the OT and then added shades of gray, inconsistencies, and loophole nightmares in the NT. When your son (or Son) is there to handle paperwork you can afford to keep sloppy books!
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #83
We appear to agree about some common "intutive" morality and disagree to remarkable extremes about the origins.

Some pass off the origins as their very own decision but this is just a smokescreen they put up obscure some nonobliging liberty to adjust theirs morals posthoc, after they have caught themselves "sinning". It amounts to avoiding the issue and pampering their own moral genius egos, imho.

So where do our morals originate from, historically, logically, or spiritually?

Alorael is right in that that the ethical tradition is far more widespread than the Bible and includes it rather than is based upon it.
It appears to me however, that revolutionary movements that break with tradition like the French Revolution, IIIrd Reich in Germany, Mugabe in Zimbabwe start by appealing to that intuitive morality and then usurp it into some idiology to substitute a new emperor for the former king.

So morals carry immense political power.
Unless we face up to the origins of our morals, we remain unoriented objects of manipulation.
Take that you moral individualistic egomaiacs.
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #84
I cannot argue, Alorael. I learned that Christ taught the way of the heart, and that the heart can be seen as a transformation center, a meeting point where the socalled 'higher' and 'lower' aspects of man, his spiritual and his human nature, come together. So that it is through our heart, through our feeling, that we connect to both spiritual and human realm, that the heart is the bridge between the two. That we have to differentiate (as the english language already does) between 'emotion' and 'feeling', that emotion moves in waves, up and down, always changing, while feeling never changes, it is what it is. That love is a 'feeling', and as such not an 'emotion', rather a state of being. That emotion is part of our human nature, while love is an expression of our spiritual self.

So that when the Bible speaks of accepting Christ in our heart, it speaks of the establishment of that bridge within us, of the link with our spiritual self, a link that Christ manifested and lived to the fullest. Without that link, we cannot 'reach heaven', that is have no awareness of that which transcends our human part. No effort of ours establishes this link, it is there and we receive it, once we open ourselves to it.

Always made sense to me.

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4784
Profile Homepage #85
quote:
Originally written by Alorael:

I'd like to see the scripture behind the arguments. I tried to find some for myself online and what I found wasn't convincing.

quote:
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. 6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
Isaiah 64
And it continues. I get a sense that humans are less than nothing compared to God, but the entire passage is a lament mostly unrelated to the argument. It's also not about damnation or salvation, as the Old Testament tends not to address that issue so strongly.

quote:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2
This is the famous passage, but it's not clear. Again, it strikes me as a warning against pride because great accomplishments do not lead to salvation. Whether good works are "works" is, in my skeptical mind, debatable. The following verses are concerned with changes in practices, notably waiving the requirement of circumcision.

And then, to muddy everything further:

quote:
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Titus 3:5

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
James 2:26

The first of those is the first clear declaration that good works aren't necessary. It isn't specifically spelled out that faith saves rather than ritual, but at least the works are out. James then disagrees strongly: it may not be works alone that save, but they're a necessary component.

And two more:

quote:
The sacrifice of the wicked [is] an abomination to the LORD but the prayer of the upright [is] his delight.
Proverbs 15:8

He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination. Proverbs 28:9

Cited as signs that God rejects those who are not saved by faith. I don't really like judging this without translating the Hebrew, but doesn't "wicked" imply deeds rather than faith? Similarly, turning away from law is a comment on behavior, not thought. Proverbs is from the Old Testament, and thought-crime wasn't fashionable back then.

—Alorael, who will stop now and wait for someone to either argue or find better scripture denying the value of works and affirming salvation through faith.

In the Old Testament, it [was] works that saved you. You had to make the proper sacrifices to atone for your specific sins. The first instance of sacrificing was in the story of Cain and Able who were born to Adam and Eve. God accepted Able's sacrifice and rejected Cain's sacrifice because Cain did not offer to God what God had requierd. The Old Testament had to be clear on what was required because they were laws that [had] to be followed.

Jesus was a man without sin, without 'blemish'. (Which is what was required of the animals in the OT sacrifices) The death of Jesus on the cross was the ultimate sacrifice for sins. Because he willingly let himself be sacrificed, we no longer are required to sacrifice anything. Instead all we are required to do is accept Jesus as the sacrifice for our sins.

This is where it starts to get mixed up on the NT. All that is required is acceptance of Jesus as your saviour (as shown by the theif on the cross next to Jesus whom Jesus told would see him in Heaven that day) but the issue becomes 'What is acceptance?'

The Bible says you have to accept Jesus with your heart, not only with your mouth. The verse 'faith without works is dead' means that the person who says they have faith but do nothing in the way of works did not take Jesus to heart (they do not LOVE Jesus). Accepting Jesus means relinquishing control of your life and putting Jesus in control. Accepting Jesus means giving up what you want for God's will. It is a natural succession that once you accept Jesus as your saviour, you will want to do good works. And out of your love for him you do good works automatically.

There is such thing as falling out of grace where those who have accepted Jesus decide to regain control of their lives and leave Jesus on the sidelines. This is why many who profess to be Christians don't act like Christians. They have read the gospel, they believe the gospel, but they have stopped living the gospel.

Conclusion: Works are not neccessary in order to get into heaven, but out of a greatful heart that has accepted Jesus, good works will flow.

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Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #86
As I have said before, I'd like to think maybe 4 out of five people will die. But I'm going to be the one who doesn't. Are we sure everybody die? Can you say that with 100% confidence? Do we have records of very person to ever live? No. So yeah just like 4 out of five dentists prefer, I wont go anywhere.

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Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 3480
Profile Homepage #87
quote:
Originally written by Jewels of the Forest:

I don't think what Ben is doing is stupid. His religion says to go out into all the world and preach the gospel. That the people who frequent this board are diverse should only give him more incentive to do so
My relegion commands me to destroy all other forms of life, so by your reasoning it should be allowed? Ok great, I will start with your family members.

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What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it.
Posts: 169 | Registered: Wednesday, September 24 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5550
Profile Homepage #88
The thing about religous doctrine that supposedly comes from god or Jesus or Mohamed is that it is all unprovable. There is no definitive proof for the bible's, torah's, or quoran's statement of anything. And while it makes sense to some people, it made sense to Pope Urban II to wage holy war and ultimately cause about 1 million lives to be lost.

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Most Important Questions:
Why does one sock go missing?
What is the purpose of meaning?
What is the purpose of girls?
What happened to the other one?
Posts: 154 | Registered: Saturday, February 26 2005 08:00
Agent
Member # 3364
Profile Homepage #89
quote:
Originally written by Timber-Wolf:

quote:
Originally written by Jewels of the Forest:

I don't think what Ben is doing is stupid. His religion says to go out into all the world and preach the gospel. That the people who frequent this board are diverse should only give him more incentive to do so
My relegion commands me to destroy all other forms of life, so by your reasoning it should be allowed? Ok great, I will start with your family members.

I offer you my other cheek as well.

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"Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05

"Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley
Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #90
quote:
Originally written by Jewels of the Forest:

quote:
Originally written by Timber-Wolf:

quote:
Originally written by Jewels of the Forest:

I don't think what Ben is doing is stupid. His religion says to go out into all the world and preach the gospel. That the people who frequent this board are diverse should only give him more incentive to do so
My relegion commands me to destroy all other forms of life, so by your reasoning it should be allowed? Ok great, I will start with your family members.

I offer you my other cheek as well.

It is easy to forgive those who have yet to harm you.

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Nena
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
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Profile Homepage #91
AFAIK, hell means only the final extermination. The second death, in fire. An eternal death. Not a place, not a torture. The only thing eternal is the death.

And being an action and not being a place, there's no hell right now. People who die don't go to heaven or hell, they're just dead until Judgement Day.

Or so the Bible says. :P

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"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9
Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3980
Profile Homepage #92
ef wrote:
quote:
... I learned that Christ taught the way of the heart, and that the heart can be seen as a transformation center, a meeting point where the socalled 'higher' and 'lower' aspects of man, his spiritual and his human nature, come together. So that it is through our heart, through our feeling, that we connect to both spiritual and human realm, that the heart is the bridge between the two.
ef, I do not ask you to "prove" what you state but jst be honest and admit that I do not understand a word. Not only that I could not point to one sentence in the bible to explain what you write, but what you call "heart" is as much a mystery to me as what is "hell" or "heaven".

I believe that there is a treasure of experience with attitudes over the ages condensed in the various teachings but the language is alien to me.
And the idea that I profit from the crucifiction even without even understanding a word is just hot air to me.

I think and feel by communicating with other people - sometimes virtually withpeople I remember, but my whole identity, the person ME is my interface and it goes when I stop communicating.
Posts: 311 | Registered: Friday, February 13 2004 08:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #93
But in our spiritual bodies time ceases to exist. :P
quote:
Originally written by Mr.knowitall:
If you are a Christian, then yes you must be baptises.
Where do you get that? Baptizing is an outward expression to the world of your faith toward God. You don't really have to be baptized to go to heaven, and just because you're baptized doesn't mean you'll go to heaven.

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Infiltrator
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Profile Homepage #94
quote:
Originally written by ben2:

But in our spiritual bodies time ceases to exist. :P
quote:
Originally written by Mr.knowitall:
If you are a Christian, then yes you must be baptises.
Where do you get that? Baptizing is an outward expression to the world of your faith toward God. You don't really have to be baptized to go to heaven, and just because you're baptized doesn't mean you'll go to heaven.

Actually, Jesus said we have to be baptized (to born again). It's not only an outward expression to the world, it's borning again. Since we born as sinners, we must born again through Christ. And if you consider Christ as an example, then you should consider that He was baptized.

Baptism doesn't grant automatic salvation, but is required.

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"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9
Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #95
Just out of interest, which denomination of Christianity do each of you hail from, ben and Overwhelming?

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Agent
Member # 2210
Profile #96
It is very simple they put all the decent souls in one place and they call it heaven. Then they put all the bastards in one place and it becomes hell.

The ones who are undecided on whether they are a bastard or not, or are just confused end up in limbo.

[ Sunday, April 03, 2005 13:39: Message edited by: Toasty Warm ]

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Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 5450
Profile Homepage #97
What is Limbo?

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I'll put a Spring in your step.

Polaris
Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
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Profile Homepage #98
quote:
Originally written by Are run? Kite are.:

Just out of interest, which denomination of Christianity do each of you hail from, ben and Overwhelming?
I don't belong to any religious denomination. I'm christian, I identify myself with some protestant religions (like seventh day adventists and baptists), but I don't belong to any denomination/church. It just happens that some are more in harmony with my own beliefs, that are a result of self-learning: reading and studying the Bible and everything else comparing to the Bible.

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"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." Colossians 2:6-9
Posts: 483 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #99
quote:
ef, I do not ask you to "prove" what you state
How could I prove it? It's what I remember I learned at school. But then you have to consider that that was in the late sixties, people went to India to meditate and study the human energy system, so my religious instruction may have been a bit unusual, especially if you look at it with the so much more dogmatic eyes of today. We were taught to try and reach beyond the pecularities of each religion to find the truths that would be valid for everyone, no matter what faith s/he belonged to.

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00

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