Do you think there is a Hell?

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AuthorTopic: Do you think there is a Hell?
Shaper
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quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion:

Scientific studies have shown that when people are praying or participating in religous ceremony, their brain gets flooded by endorphins, the "feel good" hormone of the body. This also happens when one eats or hangs outside on a sunny day. This is the "holy spirit" that keeps on being used as proof.
Well, maybe the big G is flooding their minds with endorphins as a reward for their behavior? :)

I felt the same way back when I was way more Christian than I am now (deist me). I felt the same way when I told my fiancee that I loved her the first time, as well as when I asked her to marry me. In retrospect, I don't think it's the Holy Spirit - unless it's the holy spirit I'm feeling every time I orgasm.

Perhaps it is. examples would be Tantra, and the Kama Sutra. Reaching God through the experience of pleasure.

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Nena
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quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion:

Scientific studies have shown that when people are praying or participating in religous ceremony, their brain gets flooded by endorphins, the "feel good" hormone of the body. This also happens when one eats or hangs outside on a sunny day. This is the "holy spirit" that keeps on being used as proof.
Well, maybe the big G is flooding their minds with endorphins as a reward for their behavior? :)

I felt the same way back when I was way more Christian than I am now (deist me). I felt the same way when I told my fiancee that I loved her the first time, as well as when I asked her to marry me. In retrospect, I don't think it's the Holy Spirit - unless it's the holy spirit I'm feeling every time I orgasm.

Perhaps it is. examples would be Tantra, and the Kama Sutra. Reaching God through the experience of pleasure.

Well, buddhists describe Nirvana as "a never-ending spiritual orgasm" if I remember correctly...

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Please, lets have this topic go into different forms of sex. Its kinda irrelevent.

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Guardian
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Sex is never irrelevant where humans are concerned.

That said, I don't believe the Kama Sutra carries any real value as a religious text. I've never read it, but I understand it's largely just a positions manual, with some mystical flourishes. Valuable to legions of lovers over the ages, I'm sure, but not of much interest to religious scholars.

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Stughalf

"Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita.
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Shaper
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I'm not trying to get into a discussion on different forms of sex. The point to brining that up is that the frequency of God is the same frequency of the state of extreme joy.

An orgasm is just an example of humans in a state of bliss, as is the example of people in love. Sex is not irrelevant as it relates to humans. We are one of the very few creatures that experience that form of pleasure. It is one of the things that separates us from the animals, that and among other things the awareness of the possibility of God.

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Nena
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Actually, mammals in general experience pleasure during sex. Also, scientists have found that apes and dolphins have sex for pleasure, just as humans do. So it only separates us from some animals.

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Shaper
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Note that I didn't say we are the only creatures. It is one of the factors in being human due to sex being emotional for us.

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Nena
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EDIT: Sorry... I think it's the first time I've done that. I thought it was screwey that my edit magically put everything into quotes. :o

[ Wednesday, April 20, 2005 19:48: Message edited by: Gizmo ]

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ADoS - you are correct that I never looked up the exact deffinition.

quote:
From here:

1 a : an absolute ruler unrestrained by law or constitution b : a usurper of sovereignty
2 a : a ruler who exercises absolute power oppressively or brutally b : one resembling an oppressive ruler in the harsh use of authority or power

God, as I understand him, would be an absolute ruler, unrestrained by law or constitution that his holiness didn't require anyway. He is sovereign. He would exercise absloute power and looking at the OT, he can be brutal but mostly only to his declared enemies. To his faithful subjects though, he will lavish love and mercy and reward. Those who decide to serve him have nothing to fear from his absolute power. And after the second coming there will be no more sin, therefore no more need for God to use his absolute power brutally.

I think I understood the word enough to form my earlier statements.

Mind -

quote:
It's striking how much of His own laws God breaks.
God is not bound by his own laws. He has made the laws because some things he reserves the right to do himself. For example; judgment(condemning) and ending one's time on Earth (murder). He is the King who tells his subjects that there are certain things that they cannot do because he wants the final decision for it.

quote:
How much do God's children suffer before they finally die?
It is different for everyone. I'd say just enough. (I have deleted much rambling that wasn't relevant to the question.)

quote:
Then why is a ceremonial burial so melancholic?
Because despite some being advantaged, death is still sad for friends and family who did not wish them to pass yet. This is very elementary. Plus even with faith there is a quality of mystery in death that makes it a scary thing. Even knowing(believing) that someone will be waiting in Heaven for you doesn't negate the fact that you will still have to experience death before you can see them again.

quote:
Again, your using an argument which we proved to be invalid.
My proof is meaningless to you, I hold little water for your 'proof' also. I will always maintain that God has integrity beyond any of our wildest dreams (or would that be most modest dreams) could ever hope of reaching. Hitler and Stalin were alike to God in authority style only, and even they will have to answer to him.

Ben - Word of wisdom from someone with a bit of experience. Never be quick to judge anyone be it homosexual, murderer, terrorist, or any member of another faith. We do not have final say in anyone's destination, nor should we presume to know. Warn but do not condemn, there is always hope. If I have overstepped for anyone, I sincerely appologise.

Re being spoiled by God:
This discussion only shows the selfishness of human nature. Do we really want to have everything we desire? I mean, I know by deffinition we 'want' it but would this state of always having everything we desire really be fulfilling? Where's the sense of acomplishment?

Aloreal - I know that the documentation of the Bible still leaves ample time for exaggeration. Thuryl's question was what makes the Bible different from everything else. I'm sure that much of the OT was passed on by story before it was ever written down but it is not hard for me to imagine that the original letters that make up most of the NT were still around to be copied from when our earliest copies are dated. The gospels themselves are meant to be compared with one another. Not everything agrees exactly and it shows how some people remember things differently but there is enough similarity to discern that they are talking about the same events and that they experienced these events. If it were really all a conspiracy I would expect them to be closer to word for word since they would have had to agree together on what to put into their books.

[ Wednesday, April 20, 2005 17:14: Message edited by: Gizmo ]

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quote:
Originally written by Gizmo:

Because despite some being advantaged, death is still sad for friends and family who did not wish them to pass yet.
But despite this fact, you doubt that death disadvantages anyone?

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo:

Re being spoiled by God:
This discussion only shows the selfishness of human nature. Do we really want to have everything we desire? I mean, I know by deffinition we 'want' it but would this state of always having everything we desire really be fulfilling? Where's the sense of acomplishment?

"Everything" includes sense of accomplishment.
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Law Bringer
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"But despite this fact, you doubt that death disadvantages anyone?"

Well, if I died, I wouldn't be disadvantaged as such (though I'd be plenty pissed I guess). Unless of course it turns out that there is a god and he wants to roast me in hell for criticizing Dubya.

But most people I know would (I should *hope*! :eek: ) feel somewhat... distraught? They're obviously disadvantaged.

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"I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik
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Shaper
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I don't believe death to necessarily be a disadvantage. I suppose it could be if the next incarnation is worse than the one said being is experiencing now. The concept of hell is fascinating in the sense that it claims that an ethereal being has sensation. Pain and pleasure are perceptions of the body.

Hell could be a mental realm. Perhaps one spends eternity with their fears, or things and people they never wish to encounter. Most faiths depict hell as extreme heat, cold, or different forms of torture. Maybe the memory of having felt pain will alive is enough to cause the spirit to experience sensation as they would while living.

I have a better feeling about heaven and hell being different states of life. The generous are born wealthy, and the greedy born poor. The compassionate receive love, and the hateful receive pain. Of course this demands some sort of justice in the universe, but so dose Christianity is determining who in born into heaven, and who is condemned to hell.

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Nena
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I one wants justice, one must look some place else. Greedy and/or undeserving people have most of the money, Martin Luther King, Lincoln and Kennedy were all shot, religous hate and fundelmentalism is on the rise, the global economy is on the brink, geneocide is alive and well, and its the non-ethical and unscrupulous that are in power. If this is god's will, then its obvious that we've got a Macivelli on high.

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By Committee
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quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion:

IMAGE(http://www.kressworks.com/Science/chicken_little_3.gif)
fyt

It's going to be okay, man - the world's not quite that bleak! :)

[ Thursday, April 21, 2005 11:47: Message edited by: andrew miller ]
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quote:
Originally written by andrew miller:

quote:
Originally written by Maxmillion:

IMAGE(http://www.kressworks.com/Science/chicken_little_3.gif)
fyt

It's going to be okay, man - the world's not quite that bleak! :)

Actually, it is. What counter-arguments do you have? ;)

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The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki!
"Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft.
"I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik
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quote:
Originally written by Mind:

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo:

Because despite some being advantaged, death is still sad for friends and family who did not wish them to pass yet.
But despite this fact, you doubt that death disadvantages anyone?

I never made that argument. [You] made the argument that no one was ever advantaged by a death. I said some are, not that all are.

quote:
Originally written by Mind:

quote:
Originally written by Gizmo:

Re being spoiled by God:
This discussion only shows the selfishness of human nature. Do we really want to have everything we desire? I mean, I know by deffinition we 'want' it but would this state of always having everything we desire really be fulfilling? Where's the sense of acomplishment?

"Everything" includes sense of accomplishment.

I don't think I'd feel like I'd acomplished anything if everything I wanted was handed to me on a silver platter. It's nice to be spoiled once in a while but if it's all the time, I'd think it'd get rather boring rather quickly.

[ Thursday, April 21, 2005 15:03: Message edited by: Gizmo ]

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Yes, that is also the reason why "god-moding" in a roleplay is not fun for very long. A perfect world would be boring.

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The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki!
"Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft.
"I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik
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Master
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...Because there'd be nothing to argue about on Spiderweb. :P

I'd just like to say that while some bad people are rich on Earth, some criminals are successful, some impoverished people are God-fearing, and some kind people are never treated kindly back, this is only our earthly live. We will all face a final judgement when the time comes, and someone who hasn't accepted Jesus and devoted their life to material wealth will not get to heaven while that poor God-fearing person will. Then the rich and lucky will wish they had lived differently.

Indeed, the Bible says that people should not store up treasures on Earth, but treasures in heaven. For this reason, it also says that that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to inherit the Kingdom of God. But that doesn't mean there's no hope; even a dirty rich Devil-worshipping man can make it to heaven if he turns from his ways.

I'm not saying that being rich is a bad thing. I'm just saying that the richer you are, generally the more you focus on your possessions and the less you focus on God. And without your focus on God, your life loses it's purpose.

[ Thursday, April 21, 2005 17:56: Message edited by: 1001011001000 ]

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quote:
I don't think I'd feel like I'd acomplished anything if everything I wanted was handed to me on a silver platter. It's nice to be spoiled once in a while but if it's all the time, I'd think it'd get rather boring rather quickly.
I think his point was that God could easily edit our minds directly to give us that sense of accomplishment and remove that boredom.

[ Thursday, April 21, 2005 17:53: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Or God could let us accomplish without letting us fail in such a way that others suffer. And while triumphing in the face of adversity feels good, I don't think anyone would protest an end to mosquito bites, say, or hayfever. Or genocide.

—Alorael, who thinks divine editing would constitute something of a breach of free will and/or meaningful existence. If humans were left with no way to accurately perceive the world they might as well not have any power to act at all.
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(In response to Thuryl)

Also for this reason, people are never satisfied with what they have and always want something more, because if you're used to having this level of living "handed to you on a silver platter," to gain that same kind of surprise and achievement, you need more and more.

Kind of like a tobacco addiction. :P

[ Thursday, April 21, 2005 18:01: Message edited by: 1001011001000 ]

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quote:
Originally written by 1001011001000:

Also for this reason, people are never satisfied with what they have and always want something more, because if you're used to having this level of living "handed to you on a silver platter," to gain that same kind of surprise and achievement, you need more and more.

Kind of like a tobacco addiction. :P

And whose fault is it that human nature is like that? :P

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So here's a question. Would anyone choose to go mountain climbing if there were no risk of death or serious injury?

—Alorael, who believes people would. An adrenaline rush is an adrenaline rush. Other things can similarly have positive rewards for effort without consequences for failure. Why does that risk exist, then? If God isn't going to run out of carrots but he can either give or withold them, why does he apply the stick so often?
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quote:
Originally written by Gizmo:

I don't think I'd feel like I'd acomplished anything if everything I wanted was handed to me on a silver platter. It's nice to be spoiled once in a while but if it's all the time, I'd think it'd get rather boring rather quickly.
That's paradoxal, as I explained.

quote:
Originally written by To sail the shoreless skies an come:

A perfect world would be boring.
Something can't be both perfect and boring. It is only extremely hard to imagine it.

quote:
Originally written by 4808[b:

Indeed, the Bible says that people should not store up treasures on Earth, but treasures in heaven. For this reason, it also says that that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to inherit the Kingdom of God. But that doesn't mean there's no hope; even a dirty rich Devil-worshipping man can make it to heaven if he turns from his ways.[/b]
So those who possess a large amount of wealth have no empathy? Bill Gates shares a considerable amount of his money with the world.

How much would you try to reduce the suffering in the world, if you were more conscious of the fact that every moment, literally infinite beings suffer, while your God can cease it instantly?

quote]Originally written by 4808
Also for this reason, people are never satisfied with what they have and always want something more, because if you're used to having this level of living "handed to you on a silver platter," to gain that same kind of surprise and achievement, you need more and more.

Kind of like a tobacco addiction.
[/quote]And there is an endless amount of metaphoric tabacco.
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Why does God need us if he's perfect. If he was perfect he'd be happy without us.

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