Avernum 4

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AuthorTopic: Avernum 4
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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Well, someone has to do this. We've been speculating for a while (here, for instance), and it turns out the new game after GF3 will in fact be A4. I base this on Jeff's comment in the BoA board:

quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:
I need to finish the Geneforge 3 and Avernum 4 engines
What do people think? I myself have tremendously mixed feelings.

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3368
Profile #1
I dont see how it would work. But if it did... welll... eh.

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Posts: 287 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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Tremendously mixed, and mostly bad. Don't think he should do it until some stuff gets fixed in his earlier games.

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Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
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It seems like a very odd decision to make Avernum 4 after Blades of Avernum has already been released. By the time it's finished, there'll be a good couple of years' worth of BoA scenarios out, many of which are likely to conflict with whatever material Jeff adds to the canon in A4.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Agent
Member # 27
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I think everyone's curiosity will get the better of them in the end, if, in fact, he is writing Avernum 4.
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
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It seems real strange to me that he would attempt an A4 without an E4, which he has said he wasn't going to make. Also, as Thuryl said, he should have released A4 before releasing BoA, as it would get much more business. Without some revision to the game, I doubt if it will be worth buying.

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Guardian
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Absolute crap.

We don't need an A4. We don't (for the most part) want an A4. I thought he said he was going for something new and unique?

I still pray for NG2.

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Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
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Well, who knows... he may just mean putting out a scenario of epic proportions, one that puts the four that came with BoA to shame. He may delve into the past, as in before Avernum was even found... what would the surface situation be like?

Perhaps a continuation of the game for only legendary parties (i.e.: past gamewinners) would be in order, though it'd be hard to convert old save files to a standard new format.

I think we should just give Jeff the benefit of the doubt for now, particularly since he's done so well with past games (barring a few unpleasant bugs/issues).

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Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Apprentice
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I will play anything Jeff comes out with. I don't think an A4 wouldn't fit in because they pretty much ended it after A3/E3. I guess it could be something completly diffrent then what we are thinking but then it probably wouldn't be A4.

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Posts: 30 | Registered: Tuesday, September 21 2004 07:00
Babelicious
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quote:
Originally written by Ephesos:

Well, who knows... he may just mean putting out a scenario of epic proportions, one that puts the four that came with BoA to shame.
Just like Bandit Busywork!

No, seriously, if he's talking about the Avernum 4 engine, it's going to be a new game. Why he can't just come up with a new world is a mystery to me.

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Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2238
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Heck, I'll come up with a world for him.

If it is, indeed, a prequel, perhaps I can live with that. At least I won't have played it before!

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Demonslayer is "a five star hit!" raves TIMES Weekly!

"I've never heard such thoughtful comments. This man is a genious!" says two-time Nobel Prize winning physicist Erwin Rasputin!
Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #11
We know the name of the game, though not what comes after the colon (did the Avernums get colons like Exile #: Blah blah blah?). We know the world and, despite the protestations of certain individuals, I happen to think it's a fine world. We know absolutely nothing at all about the plot, but we do know that it will be a different engine.

In short, we know almost nothing at all. I put this in the same category as most preliminary scenario plot announcements by novice designers: it could be great, it could be terrible, or it could be somewhere in between. It's all in the execution.

—Alorael, who liked all the Exiles/Avernums and Nethergate. He thinks he might like Geneforge if he could get past the engine and register. So besides the Blades games, which A4 is not, Jeff hasn't done so badly. As long as A4 isn't a slap in the face to the BoE/A community, it should be a good thing.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Agent
Member # 2820
Profile #12
I just hope he is toying with the name [Avernum 4] and uses it as a humorous reference to the "sparkling new engine".

It better be sparkling. But he says that he is almost done with Geneforge 3, which is pretty good progress, in my opinion. Of course this whole vacation issue seems either very odd, or pressing.

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Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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I liked Spiderweb quite a lot when I was just a casual player of the Avernum Trilogy, Nethergate, and Geneforge series. It wasn't until I got involved with Blades that I felt anything negative towards anyone in the company. I feel that A1, A2, and A3 were pretty darn good games.

That said, I don't know. I've joked before upon hearing that he was considering doing A4 that it was good to hear that he was going to port At the Gallows, but I felt it really should be Stareye to do that. There's an element of seriousness there, though: some designers (Creator, Alcritas) write scenarios in their own universes. Some (Stareye) write scenarios within the Avernum universe. To have a great scenario become non-canonical after it was released because of A4 would be incredibly frustrating.

Yet... I liked A1. I liked A2. I liked A3. Every new game SW releases, I have a lot of fun playing. Part of me would love to see A4, to revisit that world, to see new plotlines and meet new characters, fight new battles and travel to new continents. But... that's what Blades was for!

I don't know. Maybe we can talk Jeff into letting a bunch of BoA designers beta test A4, and if anything disagrees too strongly with any of the scenarios already made, then we can let him know. Heck, maybe I'll be able to do this myself.

I just feel like there's a right way and a wrong way to make an A4, and I'm a little worried that he's going to choose the wrong way.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Agent
Member # 27
Profile #14
quote:
I don't know. Maybe we can talk Jeff into letting a bunch of BoA designers beta test A4, and if anything disagrees too strongly with any of the scenarios already made, then we can let him know. Heck, maybe I'll be able to do this myself.
On a negative note, I don't think that the Avernum-based scenerio designers make up a majority of the potential customers.

Edit: On the other hand, besides curiousity, I cannot seriously see myself shelling out another 30 bucks for an Avernum based game, which I can get for free with BoA.

[ Monday, September 27, 2004 18:33: Message edited by: Lacicraf Htils ]
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
Profile #15
I think it is great news, as I never thought of BoA as an Avernum game at all. I also agree with Alorael, it's a fine world and we've been away for too long already.

Then to the bad part. All great works come in trilogies. I can't see how Jeff could squeeze out something new and engaging from the world of Avernum. It's all been used by now, really. The beginning, the struggle and the end. If unlucky, we will just recieve some poor BoA-like extended scenario, which has nothing to do with Avernum itself.

I'm not saying Jeff couldn't pull it off. I just don't see how he's going to do it. He must have something really special in mind, though, if he's ressurecting that olde beast. Let's hope he simply surprises us all and blows our minds away.

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Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
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I don't see what the pessimism is all about. Of *course* it will conflict most horribly with everything that has been established by fans so far. I'm convinced there will in fact turn out to be six continents, none of which is Doston, Erika and Rentar-Ihrno are resurrected and become friends, and the name of the world turns out to be not Ermarian, but anything else that does not remotely sound the same. And guess Jeff's likely reaction to someone telling him about such a conflict.

Why so pessimistic? We know the way it's going to turn out anyway. :rolleyes:

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Edit: Of course, in order to not be unilaterally negative; you know what I'd like to see done with this world? Some exploration of background, not the same setting over and over. What 'Jeff-stuff' do we know of Vantanas except for the name? What of Pralgrad and Aizo? It is like he made up those continents to make his world deeper, but he never even remotely developed them, not even on a map (that was done by the arena, iirc).

If he ever went to the trouble of making a scenario set, for instance, before Avernum and in the time of Hawthorne II, or the time of the abandoning of Skylark Vale's school of magery, or the discovery of Vantanas... I'd pay anything for a game like that, and I'm convinced so would a lot of people.

Jeff seems to me like a piano player who only uses one range of keys over and over and over. If he makes anything new, he gets himself a new piano, like NG and Geneforge. But why not set other plots in Ermarian? It's all there, the conflict of magic and church, the conflict of magic and non-magical emperors, exploration of new continents, settling, founding of empires, treason, wars, Vahnatai creations turning against them, everything. There's Nethergate and Geneforge in Ermarian, and much more.

Instead Jeff chooses to run with what he had all the time. Cave. Escape to surface. Take revenge on surface. Defeat surface. Make peace with surface. Everything else set in the world is pitifully small, being a scenario. A small school of magery, a minor bandit lair, a Slith war and so on. I don't think it's only for the plot that A Small Rebellion is counted as the best of Jeff's scenarios. It's because for once, he actually sits down and develops his world, a large chunk of its geography, its history and its politics.

Why not do that again? :)

[ Monday, September 27, 2004 20:06: Message edited by: Also rather a nutcase. ]

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Warrior
Member # 4987
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Jeff's likely reaction to hearing about a conflict that was arisen because someone else made a scenario that made the problem would most likely be responded by something along these lines, but not worded exactly the same. "Go to hell, I made the world, you just play it."
Posts: 60 | Registered: Sunday, September 19 2004 07:00
BANNED
Member # 4623
Profile Homepage #18
quote:
Originally written by Also rather a nutcase.:

There's Nethergate and Geneforge in Ermarian, and much more.
Didn't quite get that one.. But the rest, I mostly agree with.

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Posts: 417 | Registered: Sunday, June 27 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
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I meant 'potentially'. Nethergate is about powerful Romans discovering and conquering Britain, and about a conflict of worldly power (Romans) and magic (Celts and Elves, etc). The same themes and issues arise in Ermarian about Valorim, the Anama, magic being outlawed, etc.

GF is about all-powerful wizards creating living beings, who then develop an own will and rebel. If you look at Vahnatai creationism theories, it's much the same: Vahnatai make humans/troglos/etc., and have to leave the surface.

(Admittedly, that last example loses all value as an argument if Drakefyre developed Vahnatai Creationism after Geneforge came out.)

Anyway, the plot for both of these games could have been easily drawn into an Ermarian-based setting as well; that is what I'm getting at.

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The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki!
"Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft.
"Really, Spiderweb is just a big, steaming pool of estrogen." --- Robin
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
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FS, before you start complaining that A4 can't have anything that BoA doesn't have already, remember the sparkly new engine. I happened to like the change from Exile to Nethergate, although I'm less crazy about Geneforge. Maybe Jeff will pull something amazing out and bowl us all over. Hey, we need a little bit of optimism here!

On the plot side, I'd like to give Jeff a little bit of credit. With the slight lapse of E3/A3, his games have had succesively better plots (I'm extrapolating from the details of the Geneforge demos). Hopefully Jeff is savvy enough to fall into the pitfall of milking his cash cow of the Avernum plot arc when the arc is clearly over. The new engine makes me think that he's also going to be going in a slightly different direction even if he does keep the same world.

—Alorael, who also wouldn't mind seeing more of Ermarian. Yes, the problem of revisiting places that came up in scenarios is present and in fact inevitable given the scope of history (from vahnatai creationism to Stareye's scenarios). Still, it's possible that Jeff won't invalidate anything too harshly, and even if he does, it certainly doesn't turn At the Gallows into a worthless waste of time. Even if history becomes a muddle, the scenarios and game can stand on their own merits.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
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Even if history becomes a muddle, here's to hoping that it will remain at two alternative histories. Assuming that Jeff will make one canon worldline, and those who don't follow it instead follow the fan-established one.

The thing to fear, of course, is that with Jeff bringing out his own canon information, some designers might turn this into a free-for-all and we have dozens of different versions.

But that remains to be seen.

Whatever happens, it's sure to give me more work for my encyclopedia, so I'm kind of eager to see it. :D

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The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki!
"Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft.
"Really, Spiderweb is just a big, steaming pool of estrogen." --- Robin
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #22
Well, there's another way you could look at it. In one series, you notice that the cave is called Exile; in the other, Avernum. There are also other small details that changed, like the slime wizard's name. It could be possible to think of Avernum as a parallel universe of Exile, and then it's not so bad if he contradicts some of the established Exile/BoE plotline.
Hopefully, though, he'll actually makes omething good that won't contradict the community.

As a side note, I intend to create a couple different RPG engines (maybe other types too, like platformers) once I learn to program, that will come with extremely powerful, easy to use editors. If I release any more modules/scenarios after the initial one that comes with the program, I'll also try not to ignore the community's ideas. And I'll frequently upgrade and not be a jerk. Best of all, they may be free. But that last part is to be decided. Hopefully I'll get enough money to start a store/arcade that will support me financially. Of course, this is not going to happen for several years, so this is all useless info for now.

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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Babelicious
Member # 3149
Profile Homepage #23
quote:
Originally written by The Almighty Doer of Stuff:

As a side note, I intend to create a couple different RPG engines (maybe other types too, like platformers) once I learn to program, that will come with extremely powerful, easy to use editors. If I release any more modules/scenarios after the initial one that comes with the program, I'll also try not to ignore the community's ideas. And I'll frequently upgrade and not be a jerk. Best of all, they may be free. But that last part is to be decided. Hopefully I'll get enough money to start a store/arcade that will support me financially. Of course, this is not going to happen for several years, so this is all useless info for now.
A couple? Do you have any goddamn idea how hard and time-consuming it is to make such an engine? And then to provide quality content development tools? One such product is enough work for a lifetime, believe me.

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I've got a pyg in a poke.
Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Apprentice
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Profile #24
i think blades of exile 4 then avernum 4 because blades of exile series r always first

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