Avernum 4

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AuthorTopic: Avernum 4
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #50
Y'know, from the "It's His Property" angle, and justifying it financially, a lot of things are possible to justify, as has been discussed in 2 (two) threads this week already.

Why should Jeff fix any bug at all? Once a game's bought, it's bought! Suing someone over 30$, especially from abroad, costs much more than it would benefit. Why should Jeff give his designer community any support? Those are HIS games, you know, not theirs. Plus, it's cheaper to make money of all those 8-year-olds and septugenarian eskimos than fix some obscure shortcoming of an outdated engine. [/sarcasm].

I don't hold Harry Potter and the Chronicles of Narnia proofs of the contrary. They rather prove the point itself. Harry Potter would have been better off either as one trilogy, or as an ongoing series like Starwars (and I would never have read it in that case). As it is, seven books are too much to form together as an arcing, gripping plot. Things repeat; you can stop after any one book and never feel as if you have to read the next (try that with Lord of the Rings). And I don't want to discuss Narnia now... :rolleyes:

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #51
Hopefully, Jeff will turn out a relatively bug-free product. That being said, any designer has an incentive to fix bugs because it increases his market's satisfaction with the product. This in turn leads to an increased satisfaction with his company/brand, and presumably, any further titles he comes out with down the road, leading to greater revenue. Unless he's planning on pulling a fast one on us and getting out of the business, it's in Jeff's interest to take care of the bugs and turn out a quality product.

I find it ironic that people who rely on Jeff to have enough funds to host this forum so that they can post here dump on the product that will likely provide said funds. Way to support the continued existence of this community! :) Instead of spending so much time biting the hand that feeds you, why don't you find a new hand? There are many scenario builders out there with as much capability and much more glitz. Maybe you've just forgotten how much you actually like his products after all - otherwise, why keep creating scenarios using his software?

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My examples aside, my point is that stories are as long and in as many volumes as they need to be; whether they're good is a separate matter. It doesn't follow that a series or storyline is better because it takes place in three volumes.

[ Thursday, September 30, 2004 12:43: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #52
quote:
Originally written by Andrew Miller:

Instead of spending so much time biting the hand that feeds you, why don't you find a new hand? There are many scenario builders out there with as much capability and much more glitz. Maybe you've just forgotten how much you actually like his products after all - otherwise, why keep creating scenarios using his software?

Okay, name them. Blades of Avernum is probably the most simple while being the most powerful and while being cost effective editor on the market. It has the core components there and support would easily make it even better. Besides, complaining has made better service and, to some degree, better products from Spiderweb. That's what we really want.

As far as A4, we, Spiderweb's customers, are just saying that we think it's a bad idea. Yes, it is Jeff's world; yes, he is free to do as he pleases with it, but his customers have a full right to tell him that they really do not want another Avernum game, they want something else. It is to Jeff's benefit to listen to the desires of his customers as they are the ultimate arbitors of his work.

FYI: The community existed before there were these boards. It was not as large, but there were still a decent number of dedicated people.

[ Thursday, September 30, 2004 14:26: Message edited by: *i ]

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Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #53
quote:
Originally written by Andrew Miller:
Hopefully, Jeff will turn out a relatively bug-free product.
One key word: hopefully. While the regular games seem to generate far less complaints that the Blades games, the introduction of a new engine will undoubtably mean many bugs. Hopefully Jeff will be able to find many beta-testers to make his game spotless as possible before its release. Personally, I would give him some time before buying an A4, waiting for him to [maybe] fix any bugs that will be found.

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Babelicious
Member # 3149
Profile Homepage #54
quote:
Originally written by Andrew Miller:

I understand what you are implying - that the entire Jurassic Park story had been told.
No, I'm noting that Jurassic Park 1 and 2 were based on books, where 3 was not. There's the parallel.

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Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #55
Nethergate was (mostly) bug-free, although it had occasional weird graphics glitches and druid circles could be abused during character creation. I can't speak for Geneforge, but I'm unaware of anything game-stopping there, either.

BoE and BoA were pushed to the limits by other designers. When Jeff can control everything that happens, he can get it right. The new engine is unlikely to be the source of problems.

—Alorael, who thinks the plot is far more of a worry than the engine. As long as Spiderweb doesn't fall to the all shiny, no substance philosophy, it still has a chance to fill its niche's needs. And no, the Avernum engine is not all shiny. Just look at Nethergate.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
Profile #56
quote:
Originally written by Corrigere:

quote:
Originally written by Seaweed:

Avernum 4 could tell the story of the First Expedition. You know, "a small band of Empire adventurers descended to the unexplored caves where dragons and demons freely roamed etc".

Only then it would have to end with everyone being slaughtered. A pity.

This, I believe, would be a fiercely interesting game: Skip the useless level-building since you already have Demonslayer, Giantslayer, Smite, etc, and have every tactical challenge revolve around the situations of the members of the expedition- each chapter could be the story of each member. (And it's not assumed that every one of them died- just that their equipment scattered. After all, there IS a physical exit to Exile/Avernum at that point, and since falling off of a cliff inevitably means that the person is still alive, it's plenty feasible that they might only be assumed to be dead.) The various chapters would be gauntlets where the single party member could have people join his/her crew, and most paths end in slaughter- there would be lots of fleeing.

Unfortunately, there would be few (if any) goblin dungeons and little senseless slaughtering. So much for that idea.

I think leveling up your character is a huge part of the fun. Along with finding and stealing exciting new stuff from the still warm corpses. I'm not sure if it's a good idea to put it all on one card - which would be the plot. Don't overestimate the tactical combat part. I don't think it would be that much of a bait. Surely not with standard players who just want a standard RPG.

So yes, I'm kicking the ass of my own suggestion. Not a very commercial concept. Someone could try it out in a BoA scenario, though.

Djur: I wasn't speaking literally. Just pointing out that A4 would give the whole Avernum saga a good shake, maybe even unbalance it a little. Which we all know, of course.

EDIT: Okay then, so unbalance it a lot.

[ Thursday, September 30, 2004 23:07: Message edited by: Seaweed ]

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Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 22
Profile #57
Ignore post.

[ Thursday, September 30, 2004 21:35: Message edited by: Morgan ]
Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 4391
Profile #58
A4 is a useful paper size.
Posts: 14 | Registered: Sunday, May 16 2004 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3368
Profile #59
YA W00!!!!! VAHNA7A1 F00!!!! W007!!!!

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Posts: 287 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00
BANNED
Member # 3688
Profile #60
quote:
Originally written by *i:

Okay, name them. Blades of Avernum is probably the most simple while being the most powerful and while being cost effective editor on the market.
Ehh...true. Realmz is pretty outdated now (though still fun), and Coldstone makes action RPG's. Aescapia's RPG creator and Pygmalion might be pretty good, but they won't be out for a few months.

As for Avernum 4...I dunno, it seems like he's running out of ideas. The Avernum games were Exile remakes, and Geneforge was good but the sequel...I was a little iffy about the fact that entire colonies from the first game were secretly transported from the island so that you can rehash the same fueds in the first.

Eh...at least it'll be interesting to see how this turns out.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Friday, November 14 2003 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #61
How about NWN?
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
BANNED
Member # 3688
Profile #62
For the mac, the editor isn't out.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Friday, November 14 2003 08:00
Babelicious
Member # 3149
Profile Homepage #63
And is also action-oriented, although I dearly love it.

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I've got a pyg in a poke.
Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Agent
Member # 4506
Profile Homepage #64
I accept that you are just giving "friendly" advice, but he's going to make it now, since he said he will. So really, mooning, grumping, and stropping like 2 year-olds about it won't make any differences. I know this will be a blow to some of you, but just simply get a life and grow up!

:D

- Archmagi Micael

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"You dare Trifle with Exile?" - Erika the Archmage
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Posts: 1370 | Registered: Thursday, June 10 2004 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
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Although combat in NWN is in realtime, I think it does do a pretty good job of implementing the d20 system. My big complaint about it is that in single-player mode, your party is tiny. KOTOR, which I believe was built on the same engine, handled this much better, but of course, it wasn't built with an editor in mind.

Anyway, NWN does have a fairly easy-to-use editor. (I didn't know it wasn't out for Mac - my bad! :( ) There are tons of scenarios for it at this point, some of which are very good. One of my favorites was a complete redux of the old Pool of Radiance Gold Box game. :)

[ Monday, October 04, 2004 10:06: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Master
Member # 4614
Profile Homepage #66
quote:
Originally written by Archmagi Michael:
So really, mooning, grumping, and stropping like 2 year-olds about it won't make any differences.
Maybe Jeff will read this thread. *reconsiders this comment, considers the chances, and then decides against it in the long run*

I'm pretty sure Jeff has a pretty good idea for an A4, though, or else he wouldn't be making it. Or maybe he's just experimenting to see if it causes civil unrest throughout the community. :rolleyes:

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Agent
Member # 27
Profile #67
quote:
I'm pretty sure Jeff has a pretty good idea for an A4, though, or else he wouldn't be making it.
Jeff's definition of a good idea might be different than yours or the majority of the gamers here. Although he may have Avernum 4 set in a new place, with exciting new terrain and cities, in the end it will just be the same game he makes every time with new variables. Like long versions of his BoE/BoA scenerios, only with bunch loads of pointless sidequests where you hack the heads off of goblins for money (DWTD, Hillgoblin Quest). I'd doubt it would be controversial.
Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 5190
Profile #68
Hang on - why are we (almost) all assuming that Avernum 4 has nowhere to go after A3? As far as I remember, A3 was frustrating to the extent that only one of the continents, Valorim, was explorable. So there are 5 others. There is, of course, also the option of a prequel. Why not play for the other side - begin as a group in Hawthorne's army? There would then be open-ended scenarios - do you focus on magery and end up like Garzhad, or on fighting and become a Dervish and beyond? Alternatively, you could pick a single person from the series and play them in a single person game. Personally, I'd love to be Erika, but I can imagine one of the dragons, or Rentar-Ihrno (or others) could be fun, too. Etc, etc - there's no reason it can't go on evolving indefinitely. It is supposed to be a world, after all...

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Posts: 6 | Registered: Saturday, November 13 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #69
Jeff already handed evolution over to BoE and BoA. If he starts mucking around and changing/making history, the designers of some scenarios will be justifiably upset. At the Gallows presents one of those other continents. What if Jeff decides that it's actually completely different?

We're also assuming that A4 won't be a huge departure from its predecessors. You don't play Erika, you play a party created by you. (Besides, playing Erika would probably mangle Chains). After the Geneforges, it's possible that Jeff will try conflicting endings, but that would also be different from the other Avernums, so the open-ended plot also seems unlikely.

We don't know exactly what Jeff has in mind, but we know (or think we know) what he's most likely to do. There are problems with it. If the game is really good, he'll probably be forgiven, but if the game isn't stunning and it messes up Blades of Exile/Avernum, everyone will be justifiably annoyed with him.

—Alorael, who supposes this topic revival isn't terrible even after a month. At least the post has actual contents instead of "me too!" or some such noncommunication.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 22
Profile #70
quote:
I know this will be a blow to some of you, but just simply get a life and grow up!
Oh, the irony.
Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #71
I think this thread will be ongoing as we get screenshots (soon, supposedly) and more news about the game.

Some people are annoyed because they kept begging and begging for an Exile 4 but never got one, instead getting the Avernum Trilogy, which was the same as the Exile Trilogy, Jeff's way of selling us the same thing twice.

Some people are worried about the havoc this will wreak in BoA, as Alorael nicely pointed out above.

Some people really doubt Jeff's ability to make a decent storyline and just think it will suck regardless. Because of A3, I am a little worried that he'll make this game similarly huge but equally stupid in terms of over-arching plot. I just don't want to see the Avernum universe butchered.

On the other hand, as stupid as it was, I really liked A3, because the details brought it to life, even as the general plot killed it. I'm probably going to buy A4, and I'm probably going to like it, too. I'm just a little worried about it.

I suppose I haven't said anything new in this post, but meh.

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Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4256
Profile #72
No, it was a very good recap and excluded all the nonsense, so in a way that was something unusual if not new.

But Kelandon had mentioned forthcoming screenshots. Is this speculation or is there a source? How do you access the forthcoming games section? I don't see a way to get to the GF3 screenshots from the main page for example. Do you have to be on the mailing list to get the link, or is there a place where there is info on these two games accesible from the main page?
Posts: 564 | Registered: Wednesday, April 14 2004 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #73
I got my information about these things from the mailing list."And, hopefully, we'll have some good news about Avernum 4 for you soon," it says. I'm guessing that means screenshots.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #74
I'd prefer plot info to screenshots, personally.

And five other continents? Do you mean three?

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