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Displayed name	Lepus timidus
Member number	10430
Title	BANNED
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Registered	Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00

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Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Monday, December 3 2007 16:33 Profile #123 SlaughteringSevile, thanks for reformatting that post. I didn't have the patience to respond to a post which was illegible. I also don't have the patience for petty posturing or addressing arguments which have been repeated ad nauseum. quote: Ghaldring does rule by being the strongest. I never denied that Ghaldring's strength does not play a role in his rule. What I did contest was Retlew's claim that Ghaldring's rule did not involve taking into consideration the thoughts of his Drakon comrades. In case everyone has forgotten: "Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think," Yet clearly Ghaldring retains his rule in part due to his taking into consideration the thoughts and opinions of the other Drakons. He didn't obtain popular support amongst the Drakons by bullying them . Quite the contrary, he garners their respect via diplomacy. quote: The types of danger you refer to are different than that which the Drakons pose. Ascending to political and economic power is completely different than being on the verge of waging racial war. The Drakons aren't on the verge of waging a racial war. The reason that Drayks and Drakons are targeted for extermination is because they are too independent, and hence believed to represent a potential threat. Such a mentality is identical to that used to exterminate the Kurds, Armenians and Jews. quote: And, to be honest, you refer to stereotypes. I refer to stereotypes in my analogy because the Shaper mentality employs stereotypes to justify their genocide. The Drayks are a potential threat because they are too powerful and independent. The Jews are a potential threat because they are too educated and industrious. I could push the analogy even further, and claim that since humans in the Geneforge universe are capable of learning how to shape vicious monsters and hurl essence lances, they are too dangerous for the drayks, serviles and drakons to let live. Why is it fine and dandy for humans to target the drayks and Drakons for extermination because they are a 'potential threat', but not for the serviles, drayks or Drakons to target the human race for extermination? Because humans are, well, humanoid? quote: No, intelligent beings that were previously enslaved would want revenge, at least on the Shapers. False. Revenge definitely is on the agenda for some Rebels, although survival and freedom clearly take a higher priority. And many drayks, and even some Drakons, have expressed that they would be willing to live in peace if the Shapers left them alone. For example: Dryss from the Taker Toll road in GF2: "That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into."; Issss-Ta, from Zhass-Usss in GF2: "You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?" "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves." quote: The Drakons were hardly "crushed" in conventional warfare. They barely even fought. First, I'd like to address the comment that the Drakons 'barely even fought' the Shapers in convential warfare Quoted from the Rebel ending (which is considered canon) in Geneforge 3: "From all over Terrestia, we have grim reports. The drakons... the rogues... they are everywhere... We are being slaughtered." "The Ashen Isles and Poryphra are your base of operations. You fight many battles. You are always victorious. Sometimes your forces fight alone, sometimes they are aided by Ur-Drakons..." I fail to see how the drakons can be 'everywhere', slaughtering Shapers and assisting human/servile rebel forces, without barely even fighting. As to the issue of the Drakons taking great losses: Barstow: "Tell me about the drakons." "The rebellion has two parts, the humans and the creations. The drakons are the leaders of the creations. Gigantic, majestic, powerful reptile creatures. I've only seen one once, but I will never forget it." "They used to fight often in the war, as I understand it. In the north, I mean. But they took great losses, and now they keep to themselves." Also note what Alwan has to say about the matter: "How goes the war?" "That is a very good question. We Shapers are advancing on all fronts. Control of the land, the air, the sea. The rebels have been routed into these northern lands, and our infiltrators harry them at every turn." And let us not forget the introduction to Geneforge 4: "And so the rebellion began. It was an alliance of humans tired of Shaper rule, and of intelligent creations who wanted to be free. They rose up, stole some of their master's power, and attacked. At first, the Shapers were caught by surprise. Much of Eastern half of Terrestia was lost... But then the Shapers regrouped, and their armies came. The rebels have been pushed back. Their lands have been burned. Lost refugees, both human and creation, wander the rubble." Of course, you could continue to argue that the Drakons 'didn't bother' to fight conventional warfare. All this would mean is that when Jeff uses the term 'rebels', he means only the servile/human half of the Rebellion. And the term 'intelligent creations' doesn't refer to Drakons. It would also mean that the serviles and humans managed to conquer the Eastern half of Terrestia without Drakon assistance. And that Barstow is lying. But to be honest, I don't find the above assumptions very tenable. quote: The Drakons have more or less abandoned the human Rebellion the humans have to fend for themselves, and with quite a bit less resources than the Drakons, and seem to be doing quite well surviving. Um, what? The humans have lost the Forsaken Lands, the Southern Geneforge, and Illya Province. A strong Shaper force retook Poryphra and the lands surrounding Derenton Freehold. The human/servile alliance's "Plan B" involves hoping that the Drakons will complete their grand project, and save the Rebellion's ass. quote: But why are the Serviles of lower rank? Because they have less inborn fighting ability? They are more mentally stable? They are less violently radical? They are less bloodthirsty? Why? Because: 1. Ghaldring, a Drakon, is universally acknowledged as the leader of the Rebellion. Even high ranking human rebels, such as Lilita and Greta, defer to him. Hence his edicts are given highest priority. This means that when Ghaldring orders one of his Drakon subordinates to manage a village in the name of the Rebellion, the inhabitants of that village must also obey Ghaldring's subordinates 2. Non-Drakons are of lower rank in regards to the organisation of resistance because Drakons are the most effective soldiers. Once again, this is universally acknowledged by the servile/human resistance. quote: Not entirely, no, Shaper survival did not depend on their ability to Shape. It certainly didn't hurt, but beyond the first tumultuous war for supremacy, Shaping was not necessary. So why do you fail to condemn the Shapers for engaging in cruel Shaping experiments, while moaning and whining about Drakons doing the same thing? Especially given that the Drakons shape out of necessity, whereas the Shapers do not. quote: Knowledge does not come without a price. If the Nazis had not engaged in such violent research, how many would have died due to lack of knowledge? How many people would not have died or suffered if the Nazis hadn't engaged in cruel and unnecessary experiments, such as burning prisoners with phosphorus bombs so that doctors could examine the wounds? quote: The only reason that Shaping has not brought about untold benefits is that the research is insanely, horrifically, complicated. More or less like shooting radiation at chicken embryos to try and make them into cows. And most of this research is directed at warfare. At last you're starting to grasp my point, after we've been going around in circles for God knows how long. As we both agree, the vast majority of Shaper research is directed at warfare. But why? Why is research into a better thahd or glaak necessary during an era of peace? How does such research contribute to the betterment of society? Such research is unnecessary, horridly cruel and wasteful (the resources expended on this frivolous Shaping could be spent on grain to feed villages suffering famine). Merely because the Shapers occassionally perform useful research does not excuse the vast majority of their other research, which is cruel and unnecessary. quote: The desire to gain knowledge, perverse? Never. Never. Your prejudice towards happy ignorance is too blatant here. Nalyd will leave you to it, Eloi, and wait with the other Morlocks. The desire to gain knowledge purely for knowledge's sake, while inflicting horrendous suffering on sentient beings in the process, is perverse. This isn't just my opinion, it's the unanimous opinion of international and national bodies who helped frame guidelines and laws for ethical scientific research (read the Nuremburg Code, the Helsinki Declaration, or the research ethic guidelines of your nation). In order to fulfil the requirement for ethical conduct of research, researchers must demonstrate that their research isn't frivilous, and it minimizes harm to the participants, whether human or animal. -------------------- "I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question: Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence? No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed. No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council. No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one. I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension." Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
G2 sect simpatising in Geneforge Series
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Saturday, December 1 2007 20:01 Profile #18 I think all the sects in GF2 have something to admire. Barzhal's gumption and courage to go where 'no man has gone before'. Zakary's repentance and adherence to his beliefs. The Awakened's desire to negotiate with the Shapers, despite the pain they caused serviles in the past. The Taker's pure grit and determination in taking the battle to the enemy. Overall, I tend to find myself sympathising with the Takers. -------------------- "I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question: Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence? No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed. No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council. No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one. I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension." Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Who Should Win in Geneforge 5 in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Tuesday, November 27 2007 00:45 Profile #20 Excalibur: quote: I recently viewed this thread...I didn't know a debate could occur concerning Geneforge. Why not? Geneforge isn't some pointless game for morons. If you want that, play Avernum 4. [ Tuesday, November 27, 2007 00:47: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ] -------------------- "I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question: Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence? No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed. No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council. No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one. I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension." Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Who do you want to see in Geneforge 5 in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Monday, November 26 2007 19:25 Profile #6 Given that GF5 is the grand finale, I'd like to see the return of: - The Awakened and their philosophy, even if it is only token. - A group who have beliefs equivalent to the Barzites. - The return of the Sholai. I also think that a showdown with the Shaper Council is inevitable. We've all been expecting it since GF2. I don't care if the climax is 'cliche'. As long as it is a well done cliche, then I will be happy. After all, a showdown with the other half is long overdue. -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Monday, November 26 2007 15:52 Profile #111 No one is forcing you to read my posts, are they now? -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Issues that Geneforge raises in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Sunday, November 25 2007 00:43 Profile #0 I was just chatting with a friend, and trying to 'sell' Geneforge to them. They asked me for a rough outline, and while elaborating, I realize that the game helps to initiate exploration into some key issues. Off the top of my head, some of the things which have been discussed on these forums include: - Does a creator have complete authority over its creations? This could apply to either a parent-child relationship, or a god-worshipper relationship. - The level of control a government should have over its subjects and their access to knowledge. Or, in the words of V for Vendetta: Should a people fear its government, or a government fear its people? - Whether scientific disciplines should be self regulated. - At what point does the research practiced become cruel and unnecessary? - Is genocide ever a viable policy in order to maintain peace and stability? - Does might make right? Ergo. Social Darwinism. - If your race is targeted for extermination, what methods are acceptable in a fight for survival? What methods are acceptable in the fight for autonomy? Is the ensuing chaos worth it? - Is corruption an inevitable result of obtaining power? What safeguards should be put in place to prevent corruption? In many ways, Geneforge is similar to Bioshock. Granted, I don't always think Jeff approaches the issues listed above in the best way (the Drakons and Rebels are rarely seen justifying their behaviour), and the dialogue can be a little weak, but at least his games encourage thought and stimulate discussion about such topics. I don't think the Ultima series ever achieved such a thing, except perhaps Ultima 8 (where the Avatar acted quite unvirtuous!) Hopefully Jeff reads the debates we've had on these forums, and incorporates some of the arguments we've used into the dialogue for GF5. -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Anyone find Avernum 4 not as good as 1-3? in Avernum 4
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Saturday, November 24 2007 19:51 Profile #15 Azuma: quote: All SpidWeb ga..no..almost all PC-based games requires a lot of clicking.. Sure. But I included the word 'just'. JUST lots of clicking. Clicking without any of the enjoyment usually attached to computer games. Avernum 4 took the worst elements from the previous Avernums and Geneforges, and merged them into one terrible product. And I don't care if it sold well. So did Revenge of the Sith and Titanic. -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Purify enchanted shaped items? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Saturday, November 24 2007 19:12 Profile #9 Cursed target = More damage for all of the proceeding strikes. Oh, and don't forget that increased chance to hit, and the penalties to hit and damage that the opponent suffers. And yeah, go ahead and slap some acid damage on your shaped blade. The shaped blade isn't long term, since better weapons will be coming along very soon (Guardian Claymore) -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Purify enchanted shaped items? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Saturday, November 24 2007 16:05 Profile #7 Usually the fire/cold/acid damage adds about... 15 damage? Hardly anything to write home about. I'm not sure how much the Golden Crystal adds, but I doubt it's preferable to placing the Golden Crystal in your armour, and giving +5% to all resistances. Whenever I enchant a weapon which I'm going to use long term, I try to use either the ivory skull (all following hits do more damage) or the runed onyx (slow upon hit). I know that you're trying to do an 'extra sliver' of damage, but why not just add a few points to strength or melee? Or use a more damaging weapon? Iffy: quote: Yes, the Guardian Claymore. This wepon is the most powerfull wepon in the game. Debatable, especially considering the Puresteel Soulblade and Tek's Spectral Dirk, although there's no denying that the Guardian Claymore is a fantastic weapon. -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Do you think that your creations should be able to carry stuff? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Friday, November 23 2007 20:21 Profile #6 Yeah, you'd spend 150+ essence on a Drakon to carry your junk. Fantastic! -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Anyone find Avernum 4 not as good as 1-3? in Avernum 4
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Friday, November 23 2007 01:55 Profile #7 Avernum 4 was just lots of clicking. BOOOORRRRRIIIINGGGG. -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Thursday, November 22 2007 19:44 Profile #103 Retlew: quote: If you don't remember, you walk into a power struggle including the new generation who almost exclusively hate humans and wish to sever ties. Ghaldring rules by being the strongest, not by asking others what they think, his stances don't matter all that much if he leads the drakons to victory and they don't feel that they are too subservient to his rule. If Ghaldring ruled simply by being the strongest, then he would have taken Salassar out the back and ripped him a new hole, without all the finagling involving the PC. But as Ghaldring himself explains: "Why didn't you kill Salassar yourself?" "It would not have been wise. Drakons are proud. If they felt I was only ruling by killing those I did not like, then, no matter how much they owed me, they would have brought me down in the end." So clearly Ghaldring doesn't rule just by 'being the strongest', but by winning the hearts and minds of his fellow Drakons. He needs to take the wishes and feelings of his Drakons into account, or else they will gang up and usurp him. If Ghaldring's views do not reflect the common view of his Drakons, then it only follows that he would be deposed. Thought of Chaos: quote: The Shapers targeted the Drayks for genocide because they were dangerous. So are the Jews. Haven't you ever noticed how Jews have a habit of ascending to positions of economic and political power? The Kurds in Iraq were dangerous, too. As were the Armenians in Turkey. quote: It was a logical conclusion that they would one day slip from Shaper control Yep, that's a logical conclusion. Independent beings usually don't like being under someone's thumb. quote: and, if not rampage around killing the humans that enslaved them, seek to establish their own civilization to eventually challenge Shaper supremacy. Conjecture. You're assuming that every race is as vile, imperialistic, controlling and violent as the Shapers. quote: Perhaps genocide was not the best solution, and Nalyd certainly doesn't think it was, but given the centuries of Shaper conditioning and the good track record of this method, it was a reasonable one. The policy of genocide doesn't have a good track record, as evidenced by a Rebellion where the serviles, eyebeasts, drayks and drakons are all united. When such disparate races come together despite their differences, that symbolizes how the genocide policy has failed. Laki: quote: The Dracons are as you said forced to be cruel to shapers but are not forced to create uncontrolable powerfull monster(unbound)that will destroy anything that moves. No, just no. Please, I urge you to replay Geneforge 4. The Drakons engaged in conventional warfare against the Shapers. They were smashed. The human/servile resistance was annihilated. The Drakons retreated to Northforge to create the Unbound while the Shapers advanced. Finally, the Unbound were completed, just as the Shapers reached the Northforge Warrens. It was either release the Unbound and save the Rebellion, or destroy the Unbound and have the Rebellion quashed, and the remaining humans, serviles, drayks, drakons and eyebeasts (we can't forget the poor baby eyebeasts, can we now?) slaughtered. Releasing the Unbound was justifiable self defense. quote: So I think the moral highground has human/servile part of rebellion As you so astutely point out, the human/servile part of the Rebellion can afford to have the 'moral highground' because they allow the Drakons to do their dirty work. Nioca: quote: You, my friend, are deluded. You are friends with deluded individuals? Is that wise? quote: The only Drakon that showed mercy and tolerence is Ghaldring, False. I could dig up quotes from numerous Drakons who, at the very least, are willing to tolerate the company of non-Drakons. But I don't know if I should expend the effort, as I feel that you're not arguing in good faith. quote: and his rule, if GF4 shows anything, is already in severe danger. Hyperbole. His rule was challenged by Salassar, and this challenge turned into a flop. quote: The rest would be all to happy to shred you on the spot. Doubly false. Even Salassar, the most anti-human of the Drakons, isn't interested in carrying out a war of extermination against all humans. He merely wishes to break all ties with them. quote: Oh really? Is the shaping lab behind the Drakon's warrens in Khima-uss out of this so-called necessity? Yes. Can't you see why Drakons need to shape in order to fight a far superior force of Shaping masters? What do you expect the Drakons to use in their fight against the Shapers... sticks and cotton balls? quote: Is the fact that they effectively kicked serviles out of Khima-uss No they didn't. The Drakons took control. Isn't that what military leaders do? They establish a base of operations, and then order those of lower rank about? It's not exactly pleasant, but in warfare these things must occur. quote: or made them slave labor According to that logic, every human in the Shaper army, as well as those who supply and feed said army, are slave labour. I agree that the Drakons who moved into Khima-Uss didn't exactly go about the acquisition diplomatically, but to condemn them for merely establishing a base of operations during a war, and equating their actions to slave labour, is hyperbole. quote: No to the first, So you agree that the Shapers survival did not depend on their ability to Shape? quote: but yes to the second. Most of the developments in shaping came from those experiments. False. A rare few developments in Shaping came from numerous Shaping experiments, many of which were cruel and unnecessary. Merely because some experiments brought about advancements, does not mean that all (or even the majority) of experiments performed were necessary or relevant. For example, one particular Nazi experiment involved bleeding prisoners, and observing the process of blood loss leading to death. Today, that experimental material is used by the medical establishment to determine how much blood loss has occured in a patient who has suffered trauma. According to your rationale, since one Nazi experiment brought about advancements, then the entire slew of experiments served the greater good. quote: Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Try again. Twisted? Yes. Pointless? Yes. Much like how the Nazis used to burn prisoners of war with phosphorus bombs, and then examined the wounds. Why would anyone need to mutate glaahks and thahds? What greater good does that serve? If the Shapers had been targeted for extermination by a superior military force prior to the emergence of the Rebellion, then I could understand why they needed to experiment on glaahks and thahds. But the Shaper empire had experienced centuries of peace, there was no need to engage in such warped experiments, expect for their perverse desire to gain knowledge. quote: Oh, and while we're making vaguely related comparisons between Geneforge and real-life events, the Rebels are the equivalent of modern-day terrorists. No they aren't. Terrorists delibrately target civilians for political purposes. The Rebels release creations whose role is to kill the Shapers and their allies, but unfortunately cause a lot of collateral damage. A more accurate comparison is with the artillery bombardment employed by first world nations such as the United States and Israel. quote: No argument vs. Drayks, but the drakons are bound by neither reason nor mercy (Ghaldring aside). False. Your blanket statement is so absurd, I don't think it really requires a rebuttal. quote: I apologize. I didn't know Salassar was the picture of mental health. He seems mentally stable to me. Merely because you disagree with his ideology, does not automatically make him insane. quote: Except for the backstabbing, brainwashing, and hypocrisy. Backstabbing, brainwashing and hypocrisy? I have never observed such things in the Drakon resistance. quote: It is interesting to see how you can put a much lower value on the deaths of millions Millions? Your hyperbole generator is acting up again. quote: of innocent bystanders Innocent? Are these the same humans who supply the Shapers, feed them, provide equipment for their cruel Shaping experiments, and happily exploit servile labour while baying for Drayk and Drakon blood? Granted, not all humans are Shapers, but they do resemble the Germans who happily profited under Nazi rule. Don't expect any sympathy from me. quote: versus the death of a few hundred who posed a serious threat to security, and possibly the world. Who posed a serious threat because they were being targeted for extermination. quote: Quite frankly, the shapers were clearly correct in assuming that the Drayks were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted because they survived! Quite frankly, the Nazis were clearly correct in assuming that the Jews were too independent and dangerous to be allowed to exist. Look at the carnage that resulted in places such as the Warsaw Ghetto, because the Jews there were allowed to survive! In case you haven't realized yet, your reasoning in circular. "Why are we killing the Drayks?" "Because they dangerous. Just look at how they are attacking us!" "Why are they attacking us?" "Because we are killing them." [ Thursday, November 22, 2007 19:45: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ] -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Choosing a side has never been so tough in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Tuesday, November 20 2007 17:23 Profile #9 Wojiz: quote: Next is the shapers. They have the most practical argument going for them; sure, they can be unjust sometimes and even cruel, but in times of conflict it's absolutely necessary. Shouldn't that argument also apply to the Drakon resistance? I mean, how much larger a conflict is there than fighting for your very existence? -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Who do you want to see in Geneforge 5 in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Tuesday, November 20 2007 17:21 Profile #3 Wouldn't it be great if your character could start as a Drakon? -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Tuesday, November 20 2007 16:51 Profile #89 Safey: quote: Well in the part of rebellion led by the Drakons its not much better if at all. The Drakon part of the Rebellion is significantly better than the Shapers. Considering that the Drakons are getting slaughtered in war of survival while cooperating with two radically different species who tend to regard Drakons with suspicion (and one of which, the humans, is playing a role in their genocide), the fact that they are actually more tolerant and merciful than the Shapers is quite an accomplishment. quote: The drakons treat anyone who i no t a drakon be he human, servile, drayk, or eyebeast. They are all the same to a drakon, dirt. Well, no, not all Drakons treat non-Drakons like 'dirt'. Ghaldring is all around a nice reptile, and he wouldn't be on top if the majority of Drakons didn't support his pro-human/creation ideology. Also note that up until several months before your PC intervenes, the Drakon and human/servile halves of the Rebellion were cooperating. It was only when the human/servile half of the Rebellion failed to win any significant victories against the Shapers, and the Drakons suffered severe losses, that they became more 'hostile' towards non-Drakons. It is continuously stated throughout the game that the Drakon attitude only became 'Drakonian' when they suffered severe losses, and blamed the non-Drakons for this. Is such an attitude justified? I have no idea. But it does demonstrate that the ill will borne by some Drakons towards humans and creations is not intrinsic, but dictated by the environment and historical matters. Stop the war, eliminate the Shapers, and the Drakons will most likely deviate towards a more tolerant mindset. Although I doubt they will be linking hands with the humans any time soon, considering their bitter history. quote: The shapers are cruel and arrogant but so are the drakons. Any cruelty demonstrated by the Drakons is out of necessity. If it weren't for Drakon 'cruelty', the Shapers would have already eaten the Rebellion for breakfast. It's repeated throughout the series, ever since Geneforge 2, that the Drakons adopt a 'survival of the fittest' approach in order to survive against the Shapers. I actually just completed GF2 as the Shapers, and I'm surprised as to the complexities I missed regarding the Drakon and Drayk races. As Syros exclaims once you complete the Geneforge: We will surpass anything the Shapers can make, anything they will be able to make for years._"; "... With the army we will build, we will be able to take our freedom at last! We will be so strong that maybe, someday, we can even show mercy!" The Shapers have no such excuse. Prior to the Rebellion, why did they need to perform cruel experiments on Creations? Did their survival depend on it? Was any 'greater good' served? Shaper research is as twisted and pointless as many experiments performed by Nazi Germany. To summarize, I don't hold it against the Drayks/Drakons if they must temporarily sacrifice some of their ideals in order to survive the Shaper onslaught. As to arrogance, despite all of their faults, the Drakons allow the serviles and humans to have significantly more autonomy, and aren't targeting any sapient species for genocide. Also note that there is important difference between the Drakons and the Shapers: The 'speciesm' observed in Shaper society is institutionalised, where any speciesm observed in Drakons is at the level of the individual. Claiming that a sapient species doesn't have the 'right to exist' because you personally feel that they are too independent is the height of arrogance. Such arrogance has been demonstrated by the Shapers, but not by the Drakons. quote: The human rebellion is all but lost. The drakons grow more arrogant and mentally unstable with each generation. Arrogant? Debatable, although the incompetence of the human/servile Rebellion has caused the current generation of Drakons to become more arrogant. I disagree that they are becoming more 'mentally unstable', though. quote: To me the heart of the rebellion (drakons) are just as bad if not worse then the shapers. Here's a simple comparison: Shapers target the Drakons for genocide for the crime of simply existing. Drakons do NOT target the humans for genocide, despite a significant proportion of said species (ie. the Shapers) engaging in a campaign to annihilate all Drayk and Drakonian life, while the vast majority of the remaining humans either actively participate in the slaughter, passively assist, or sit back and allow for genocide to continue. The above comparison makes it clear that the Drakons have the moral highground. -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
G3 Errand Boy in Geneforge Series
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Saturday, November 17 2007 18:39 Profile #3 Huh? Gob doesn't give you the blade as a reward for giving him all that junk. He gives you a Clawbug charm. To get the blade, you either need to grovel to Gob, or sneak into his back rooms and steal it. However, if you are a rebel, you CAN enter Dhonal's Keep without returning the blade. A Shaper in Dhonal (southwest corner) has Rebel sympathies, and tells you about a hidden trapdoor in the northeast area to enter the Keep. -------------------- "I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question: Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence? No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed. No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council. No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one. I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension." Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
G3 Errand Boy in Geneforge Series
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Saturday, November 17 2007 18:24 Profile #1 Have you obtained the Shaped Blade from Gob's back room? Have you returned it to the big angry Guardian jerk? -------------------- "I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question: Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence? No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed. No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council. No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one. I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension." Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Young Geneforgers in Geneforge Series
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Saturday, November 17 2007 17:50 Profile #13 I know that I played Version 1.0 on Exile 1 when it first came out on Mac. I must have been about 6 at the time. -------------------- "When I was a child, my people talked while others prepared for war. They used reason while others used tanks, and they were destroyed for their trouble! I won't stand by and watch it happen again, I won't!" Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Revised political-geneforge sympathies poll in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Friday, November 16 2007 16:04 Profile #87 Zeviz: quote: With that said, Geneforge Rebels seem to be equivalent to the most extreme elements of RL society: indiscriminate attacks against univolved civillians "just to steer things up" Not exactly. The rebels do target military installations, Shaper bases, and infrastructure used by the Shaper army (for example, roads) it's just that the rogues they use don't have a 100% accuracy. quote: wouldn't be accepted by most of the RL revolutionaries. And yet the United States had no problem with the carpet bombing of Dresden to scare German citizens into surrender, the atomic bombing of the heavily populated Hiroshima and Nagasaki to cause Japan's resolve to crumble, the napalming of Vietnam, the indiscriminant air strikes on Cambodia, the air strikes on heavily populated Iraqi cities such as Basra, etc etc. This is despite the fact that unlike the Rebels, the United States are not only regarded as the best of the bad bunch, but also have military superiority. And yet you have higher expectations for a rag tag Rebellion whose numbers, resources and collective skill are far inferior to that of their oppressors. quote: Another thing in Shaper's favor that everybody is forgetting is that they are neither a race nor a cast. From what I've seen in the games, Shaper society is a form of meritocracy, I disagree. The Shaper class is not a meritocracy, given that even the most inexperienced Shaper apprentice is of a higher station than an experienced mage or soldier. To claim that Shaper Society is a meritocracy is the equivalent of claiming that Orwell's society in '1984' was a meritocracy, as race and gender were irrelevant in the selection process for Inner Party members. Merit plays a small role in Shaper selection. More accurately, Shapers are selected on how much their ideology conforms with that accepted by the Shaper Council. quote: While citizens of shaper lands have no right to vote, they seem to have at least as much opportunity for upward mobility as citizends of modern USA. Unless you're a servile. Or a Drayk. Or a Drakon. Or an Eyebeast. Or a human who wants some measure of autonomy. And you'll always be inferior to the Shapers. Some society. I guess it's not bad for a Shaper, or a human who enjoys kissing ass and asking 'How high?' when a Shaper tells them to jump. Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Geneforge IV Survey in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Saturday, October 20 2007 16:33 Profile #58 Nioca: quote: I claim they're merciless because even the slightest waver in devotion to their cause will get your head separated from your body in the rebel ending. If you assist the Shapers in infiltrating the Unbound labs in Northforge, killing rebels along the way, then yeah, the Drakons aren't very forgiving. And to be frank, I can't blame them. Or maybe you're referring to the Trakovite ending, where you destroy the machinery, hence jeopardising the Rebellion and flushing years of Drakon work down the toilet. Once again, I can't blame the Drakons for being 'merciless' in their punishment. Although beheading you is a small act of mercy, given that you could have been a tasty snack. quote: Note the 'we do not wish to share influence' line. Red herring. We were discussing whether the Drakons are greedy for wealth, and I provided the quote from Salassar to demonstrate that wealth isn't their highest priority, even with one of the most temperamental Drakons. quote: And said greed isn't just limited to wealth either. Bait and switch. Your original statement regarding Drakon greed was: "They have an inherent greed that stems from their Drayk beginnings." This implies that the greed you were referring to is the material greed sometimes observed in Drayks, for items such gold and trinkets (ergo. 'Hoards'). Now that I've demonstrated such a claim to be bunk , you're broadening the definition of greed. quote: Hardly. Unless, of course, annihilating a continent is considered saintly. Which is not comparable with Shaper behaviour, given that the Drakons are fighting a war for survival. But it is interesting to note that the Rebel ending states that the Shapers engage in the same tactics the Drakons use, once they are on the back foot. quote: I don't recall anything done by the Shapers coming even close to that. Even when the Shapers aren't facing annihilation, they raze towns and cities merely for disobedience, perform cruel experiments on creations without a valid excuse, and starve and torture Rebels to death. quote: And it actually proves that the Drakons are going for genocide. Genocide is the deliberate, targeted and systematic extermination of an ethnicity or religion. What race/religious group are the Drakons targeting for extermination? quote: The latter two sum it up. Ghaldring is probably the best example available of a 'model drakon' if you will, but his fight with Salassar and his comments after Salassar's death show that he's the exception, not the rule. Conjecture. I'd argue (and far more effectively) that the majority of Drakons are in agreement with Ghaldring's ideology, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to successfully dispose of Salassar. quote: Shapers, yes. But I'd like to see a source for where it says that they despise and distrust all humans, because I can't remember seeing that anywhere. Pirik stated it, and she's an influential servile leader. But there are numerous Rebel serviles throughout the game who express their distrust for humans. Once again, distrust for all humans is not universal amongst independent servilekind, but a trend definitely exists. quote: You just answered your own question. You're basing you're opinions on the Shapers, and then broadening it to include all humans, guilty or not. But the humans are guilty. Either they actively exploited and abused the serviles, or stood by and let it happen. There are exceptions to the rule, such as Lilata and Greta, but they are the tiny minority. quote: However, a lot of the humans haven't really seen the situation first-hand, and thus can't really form an opinion on it. From what I gather, utilising creations for manual labour seems to be a pretty commonplace event in the Shaper empire. So how can humans not have first hand experience regarding creation rights? quote: Because they [rebel serviles] still look like servants to me They still perform the bulk of the tinkering and manual labour, because that is their speciality. The difference between Shaper serviles and rebel serviles is that rebel serviles made a choice to assist the Rebellion, by doing what they know best. quote: So, instead of trying to free themselves from Shaper rule, they're giving them good reason and more credence to go after them and kill them. Truly, they are geniuses. Yes, they are geniuses, considering that the Drakons, Drayks and independent serviles are marked for extermination to begin with, and engaging in violence is hardly going to change the Shapers' attitudes towards them. But you're right. The Jews should have thrown down their arms, so that the Germans wouldn't have any good reason or credence to exterminate them. quote: It's not their only means to survive Patently false. Once again: Release Unbound = Rebellion survives, lots of non-rebels die. Not release Unbound = Rebellion destroyed, Drakons, Drayks, independent serviles and Eyebeasts exterminated. There is no 'third option'. This is repeated throughout the game, and reflected in the game endings. quote: The Drakons proved themselves very effective in the assault on that gate in the wastes, so why not attack the Shaper forces directly? Been there, done that. The Drakons did engage the Shaper forces directly, and suffered horrific losses. Hence they withdrew to the North to work on their grand project. One successful guerilla strike hardly can be extrapolated to assume any success in all-out conventional warfare. Also note that the Shaper ending states that the Drakons were slaughtered after several months of siege at Quess-Uss. Without the Unbound, the Drakons are no match for a force superior in numbers and resources, despite having the advantage of fortifications in their own territory. And yet you postulate that somehow, the Drakons would stand a chance in hostile territory, away from their own fortifications and support systems. quote: The Shapers aren't actively hunting down and slaughtering anything that strays from their rule. Yes they are. And they are doing far worse than that. They are actively hunting down and slaughtering entire sapient races for the mere crime of existing. What regime in real world history recently did that? quote: And I'd also like to point out that their laws are equally applied to themselves as well as their subjects. So serviles are allowed to use magic? Generic humans are allowed to Shape? Shapers aren't of higher rank than their flunkies? quote: No, because someone would still rebel against their rule. People usually don't rebel if they don't have a good reason. If the Shapers had been more tolerant, than this particular Rebellion would not exist. quote: I'd like to end this with my perspective on what the Drakons are doing. They may claim that they're trying to free those wronged by the Shapers, but it really is more an act of revenge. No, releasing the Unbound is motivated by the desire to survive. Hence your lengthy quote becomes irrelevant to this discussion. Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Geneforge IV Survey in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Saturday, October 20 2007 01:36 Profile #53 Nioca: quote: You're reading a bit more into this then what I meant, and if you just so happen to read my post, I never claimed that they would run about annihilating everything that moves That's not the impression I got when you replied with "Not yet" to my observation that the Drakons haven't targeted any sapient life forms for genocide. But I'm glad that you agree that as things stand, the Drakons haven't targeted any sapient races for genocide, and they are unlikely to do so in the future. Which just proves my point about the Drakons holding the high ground, no matter how big of jerks they may be. quote: By 'not yet', I mean that there's a trend developing that's clearly showing how merciless Drakons tend to be rather haughty and detached, but they are hardly what I would classify as merciless. They are capable of empathy. quote: and greedy the Drakons are, The Drakons covet wealth, much like humans. However, not all Drakons place wealth as their highest priority. As Salassar says: quote: We drakonsss are engaged in a great project, yes. A gloriousss work. But it isss our project. We have expended great energy and wealth from our hoardsss on it, and we do not wish to share influence. Apparently the vast majority of Drakons don't consider wealth as important as their fight for liberation and independence. quote: As for inherent evil, well, there's a little bit of that in everyone in the Geneforge series. Sure. Yet any 'evil' act committed by the Drakons pales in comparison to that of the Shapers. quote: You know. Giant, bi-pedal, green (sometimes red) scaly things that breathe fire and have been the topic of debate the last few post. One goes by the name of Ghaldring, ring any bells? Delightful. So are you saying that every Drakon would gladly do away with the human/servile half of the rebellion? Or is that the general opinion amongst the Drakon population? Or do the influential Drakons have that opinion? And if so, source? But apparently Ghaldring doesn't hold such an opinion. quote: Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers. Note how Ghaldring wants to shelter the less beings, instead of saying something along the lines of "Once we have released the Unbound, we no longer need you chaps around. You'll all be out on your ear!" quote: Second, not all serviles share that same opinion. Yet it's a general trend amongst liberated serviles to despise and distrust all humans. And remember, they haven't been hunted to near extinction like the Drakons and their very recent ancestors (the drayks) have. quote: Pirik is blinded by past experience, How on earth can you be 'blinded' by past experience? The Shapers treat the serviles atrociously, and the humans are no better. Pirik merely states the obvious. quote: and judging all humans the same because of a few. Isn't that what you have just done with the Drakons? But to claim that serviles haven't been hard done by in regards to slavery and oppression by humans in general is ridiculous. Some humans are sympathetic towards creation rights, but there does certainly seem to be a trend of either exploitation or apathy in regards to the human races' views on creation rights. quote: And finally, Drakons have made it clear that 'lesser species' are merely their own pawns. Ghaldring disagrees with you: "Now the drakons can create the Unbound, and the rebels can help us. And we drakons will shelter the lesser beings with us in the Grayghost Mountains while our creations cleanse Terrestia of the Shapers." Since when has a king gone to the effort of sheltering his 'pawns' when they are no longer needed? quote: Which actually brings up an interesting point: how many differences can you actually spot between Shaper serviles and Drakon serviles? Because I don't see much. The serviles have more autonomy in the rebellion. quote: They're slaughtering anything that gets in their way, and doing more collateral damage than they are actually fighting the enemy. They prefer inflicting collateral damage to being genocided. The horror. Israel at your heart out. quote: Essentially, this is more of the oppressed killing other oppressed and claiming it's for the greater good of their cause. No. It's the oppressed using the only means available to them in order to survive. Big difference. If there were other alternatives available which were just as (if not more) effective than the Unbound, then you might have a case. But as it stands: "Only all Shaper life. Of course, most of the rest of it will die. But our only other choice is losing this war. I suppose, from some perspectives, what we are doing is morally questionable. But it is the only choice." Hmm, Ghaldring seems pretty rational, given how Drakons are supposedly power hungry, greedy nutcases. quote: And, excuse me if I'm wrong, I don't see the Shapers actively seeking out bloodshed. So marking entire sapient species for death isn't 'actively seeking out bloodshed'? Crushing any independent thought isn't 'acitvely seeking out bloodshed'? The Nazis didn't seek out bloodshed when they targeted the Jews for extermination? The Turks didn't seek out bloodshed when they targeted the Armenians for extermination? Good grief, many Americans would argue that the British were 'actively seeking out bloodshed' when they imposed the tea tarrif. quote: Rather, they ensure that their laws are upheld. So did the Nazis, when they threw the Jews into ghettos and extermination camps. I guess those Nazis were behaving ethically, because they followed German law to the letter. quote: Do the Shapers need to reform or, possibly, be overthrown and replaced with a more compassionate government? Yes. Is reform, or a force of morally upstanding individuals going to be successful in overthrowing the Shapers? I doubt it. quote: But with the way the Drakons are going about it, there won't be anything left to free by the time they're done. And the Shapers could have avoided all this by simply treating their creations and human lackeys with a bit more dignity. sigh [ Saturday, October 20, 2007 01:42: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ] Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Geneforge IV Survey in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Friday, October 19 2007 18:42 Profile #51 Nioca: quote: Not yet. Right now, they have bigger things to worry about. I find that critics of Drakonian actions seem to apply the above logic rather selectively. Whenever Drakons behave in an ethically questionable fashion, it's because they are inherently evil. But if they act in an ethical fashion, it's because they are forced to do so due to the war. God forbid ever considering that the Drakons act in ethically questionable ways due to being forced into a war to prevent the extinction of their species. Either way, it's pure conjecture to assume that once the Drakons win, they will run about annihilating all non-Drakon life. quote: However, they made it clear that if they could safely get rid of the human/servile side of the rebellion, they would. Who's 'they'? quote: They regard creations (and humans) with less compassion then the Shapers. Drakons have more compassion for creations than Shapers. They can be pretty condescending and easily irritated by 'lesser species', but not to the point of wiping them out for merely existing. However, I do agree that Drakons dislike humans. And for good reason. As Orois Blaze explains: "We generally dislike humans greatly. There is a real grudge there. Since humans tried to exterminate us, you understand. And are still trying." Even today, the Germans aren't too popular with the Polish and Jews. Go figure. Note that the serviles have a strong dislike for humans as well. This is reflected by Pirik: "Humans created us, then they enslaved us for centuries. Shapers were cruel to us, and non-Shapers tolerated us and gladly benefited from our labor. Now humans fight, but not for the rights of creations, the true justice in the rebel cause. They fight for greed. They fight to gain the Shaper powers for themselves. I hope, as a servile, that you have not grown too fond of the humans. I have seen much, and I tell you this. You will regret that." I guess the hostility shown towards humans by serviles is evidence of the fact that serviles are big evil jerks. quote: So what's to stop them from taking complete control, and effectively becoming the Shapers themselves, only with far more cruelty and power? Conjecture vs. reality. The Drakons 'might' take control and become as bad as the Shapers. Or they might willingly, or be forced, to become more peaceful when the war is over. On the other hand, we know that life sucks under Shaper rule if you're an independent servile, Drayk, Drakon, Eyebeast, or human desiring autonomy. quote: The Shapers need to reform, not be overthrown by tyrannical lizards. And how likely is 'reform'? And if you were a Jew under Nazi rule, would you wait for 'reform', or actively fight alongside the Allies? The Drakons are far from perfect, but currently they are the lesser of the two evils for the Rebels. [ Friday, October 19, 2007 18:44: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ] Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Apparently Drakons can use tools in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Friday, October 19 2007 18:14 Profile #5 I'm not sure if it specifically refers to 'mechanical skills'. Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Apparently Drakons can use tools in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Friday, October 19 2007 15:11 Profile #3 Where does the ending say that they needed the humans/serviles for their mechanical skills? Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Apparently Drakons can use tools in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus BANNED Member # 10430	written Friday, October 19 2007 05:14 Profile #0 I was lurking the old topics, and it seemed a little contentious as to whether the Drakons had the hand-eye coordination to use tools. I found this while playing GF4, at Derenton Freehold: quote: "In Derenton Freehold, the canisters are made by a drakon. He is very old. His scales are dull and cracked, and his teeth and claws have dulled with age. But his eyesight is still sharp, and he can handle the tools with great dexterity." So apparently the Drakons can use tools. They probably just use serviles for the menial chores, like tightening the nuts and bolts on the Shaping vats :) . [ Friday, October 19, 2007 05:15: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ] Posts: 136 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00

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