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What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Saturday, March 8 2008 14:22 Profile #129
Nioca:

quote:

lepus:
For clarification, an analogy. An alien race known as the Gorg invade Earth, believing that humans are an inferior species, deserving only vapourisation. The human retaliate to this invasion with brute force, first defeating the Gorg infantry on Earth, and then boarding the Gorg starships and butchering a crew who fights to the death.

Would you class the above as genocide? Apparently so, given that the humans were targeting the Gorg for extermination.[/qb]
quote:

You see, there's a vital flaw in your little example here. The humans weren't targeting them because they're alien; they're targeting them because they pose an immediate threat.
Ahh, but the very fact that they come from an alien society is relevant, because said alien society sees humans as disposable inferior beings, deserving only to be crushed.

How are the Shapers in Geneforge any different from the Gorg in my hypothetical scenario, exactly?

The Gorg believe that humans are an inferior species. The Shapers believe that Creations are an inferior species. Check!

The Gorg believe that humans only deserve extermination. The Shapers believe that independent Creations deserve extermination. Check!

The humans respond by massacring the Gorg. The Rebels respond by massacring the Shapers. Check!

The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide?

And just to expand the analogy further, the humans learn that there are human food slaves on the Gorg homeworld, and that the Gorg are planning to attack again, because they will never allow independent humans to exist.

Do you:

A: Firebomb the crap out of them.

or...

B: Sit on your hands, because a pre-emptive strike might be considered 'genocide' by the U.N? :rolleyes:

I'd mention the Nazis, but obviously you're tired of that (very apt) comparison. I just think it's rather contradictory of you to claim that my Gorg scenario isn't an example of genocide, whereas the Rebels vs. Shapers scenario is.

To be brutally honest, I wonder if their is a little bit of speciesm going on here. Perhaps posters would be more supportive of Rebel tactics if said Rebels were all humans. But instead, the Rebels who have the cahones to beat the crap out of people are actually 30 foot high firebreathing reptiles.

[ Saturday, March 08, 2008 14:25: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Speedrunning Geneforge in Geneforge Series
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Saturday, March 8 2008 04:24 Profile #0
Has anyone ever tried to speedrun Geneforge as a challenge (ie. only do what is absolutely essential to win the game in the least amount of time)?

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Friday, March 7 2008 23:51 Profile #127
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

[quote=Lepus timidus]
[qb]So you admit that the Outsider loyalists (apart from the two year olds, the little dears) have free will, and know that their actions assist in the continuation of an era of oppression and genocide. Nice to know that you're willing to concede that point.
No, I'm not. You're under this wonderful fantasy that the Outsiders can do whatever they darn well please, and that if they rebel, they get a nice shiny medal and moral satisfaction.
[/quote]No, just no. I've said no such thing. There is an inherent danger in opposing any tyrannical regime, but as the old saying goes, ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

quote:

And here's another thing: most outsiders don't see the darker side of the Shapers.
I disagree. The Outsiders have lived alongside the Shapers for centuries, and I think that they must have at least some inkling of the cruelty of Shaper experiments (guards in research labs), that serviles are capable of independent thought (the servile keeper in Drypeak disposing of Sencia), and of the genocide of the drayks (Outsiders serve in the Shaper armies).

quote:

Now look through the eyes of the same outsider, and look at the destruction the Rebels are causing. Except, from an outsider's eye, they don't look like Rebels; they look like power-hungry terrorists who's sole purpose in life is to destroy and pillage anything in their way.
Or perhaps it looks like a bunch of independent serviles who... wait... didn't the Shapers tell us that the serviles were dumb placid beings who loved to serve?

That would be my first thought, if I were an Outsider, which is why I find it completely implausible that Outsider believe, and continue to believe, that serviles are dumb creatures happy to serve. Are they as gullible as the citizens of Oceania for 1984?

quote:

Genocide against the Shapers being justified? No. It doesn't even need a reason, the mere idea of the question speaks for itself.
It's not genocide to kill your enemies. If the Shapers were willing to surrender, (or offer a truce/compromise), there would be no justification to slaughter them. But we both know that the Shapers will never concede defeat, or even compromise, with the Rebels wishing for autonomy. So unfortunately, the Shapers must die.

The fact of the matter is that the Shapers adhere rigidly to a dogma which encourages them to snuff out any independent Creation life. So until the Shaper faction either changes their ideology or surrenders, said Creation life is entitled to fight back against any Shaper which wishes to destroy them (which, as it currently stands, is 99% of them).

quote:
It's funny you should drag that up (again), but I seem to recall that the Nazi regime was also the government of many of the Jews who were killed. Tell me, did the Jews get the government they deserved as well?
The Jews were a minority at the time, so I would consider than far less culpable than non-Jewish Germans. And from memory, the Jews did 'declare war' on Germany via boycotts.

quote:

Anyway, you're assuming that everyone who opposed the rebels, directly or indirectly, is equally guilty.
I never said this! What I asserted was that such a distinction is incidental. The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, the Outsiders are enemies of the Rebellion. Hence there is no reason why the Rebels should bend over backwards to spare them when they employ scorched earth tactics.

Even if the Outsiders are 'enemies out of ignorance' (as Dikiyobi keeps stressing, something which I doubt), they are still enemies. If a man runs at you with a knife, you don't hesistate to defend yourself merely because he might be mentally unstable.

quote:

And it's just coincidence that each and every one of the targets are either Shapers or closely tied to the Shapers?
Congratulations, your powers of deduction amaze me. You're quite right when you speculate that it's probably not a coincidence when the Rebels target a sect which wishes to exterminate and enslave them.

For clarification, an analogy. An alien race known as the Gorg invade Earth, believing that humans are an inferior species, deserving only vapourisation. The human retaliate to this invasion with brute force, first defeating the Gorg infantry on Earth, and then boarding the Gorg starships and butchering a crew who fights to the death.

Would you class the above as genocide? Apparently so, given that the humans were targeting the Gorg for extermination.

quote:

So, after further consideration, I have a question. You act as if it was such a glaringly obvious decision to support the Rebels. So why, in every poll made after GF4, does the majority of voters support the Shapers over the Rebels?
For the same reason that democracy doesn't work: People are stupid.

[ Saturday, March 08, 2008 04:22: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Friday, March 7 2008 23:16 Profile #126
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources, not people.
Well aren't you naive. Pray tell, how does an attacker destroy infrastructure without causing civilian casualties? I'm sure Israel and the U.S.A would love to hear about your revolutionary war tactics.

[ Friday, March 07, 2008 23:19: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Tuesday, March 4 2008 22:11 Profile #118
Diki:

quote:

Sorry, Lepus, but I'm convinced if I were a servile or drayk, I would be completely unable to trust you.
So you don't trust anyone who employs scorched earth tactics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Tuesday, March 4 2008 15:59 Profile #114
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

Sheesh, it's like you have the attention span of a fly on caffeine.

For context: No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.
So you admit that the Outsider loyalists (apart from the two year olds, the little dears) have free will, and know that their actions assist in the continuation of an era of oppression and genocide. Nice to know that you're willing to concede that point.

As for the two year olds, you're right. I don't support the targeting of two year olds, as they aren't enemies of the Rebels. But if they happen to get killed while their parents are being targeted, that's just tough. Stuff like that happens in war all the time.

You don't think two year olds were killed in the carpet bombings of Dresden, the nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the napalming of Vietnam, the bombing campaign against Serbia, the artillery bombardments and air strikes against the West Bank and Lebanon...? I could go on and on, but I don't think I need to drill the point home with a sledgehammer.

quote:

Because that's beside the point. We're not debating whether the Shapers are justified to do that. We both know the answer to that is no.
Nice to see that you're willing to concede another point. So rebellion against the Shapers is justified, nay, a moral responsibility?

quote:

Yet, according to your draconian policies, anyone who supports the Shapers in any way must die.
Shaper loyalists must die.

quote:

Have you considered that some of the outsiders are just trying to live their lives under the regime?
Like the Germans under the Nazi regime? The people get the government that they deserve. If the Shaper loyalists refuse to stand up and fight against the draconian policies of their government while supporting genocide and enslavement both materialistically and in spirit, then they deserve everything they get.

Do you think my Slavic ancestors in the camps cried when German 'civilians' were killed in the indiscriminant aerial bombardment of Germany? And no, this isn't an appeal to emotion, it's just a simple observation. If you and your family are being exterminated and enslaved, the fact that a few 'civilians' who either implicitly or explicitly supported your extermination were killed in the fight for your freedom is the least of your worries.

quote:

Wrong. It's not by the sage's hand that free creations die.
Haha, good stuff. So I can construct bombs for terrorists, but as long as I'm not the one who actually detonates them and kills kaffir, I'm absolved of blame.

quote:

It's a direct result of someone pointing that wand at a creation and firing. Let's turn the situation around. Say aforementioned wand ends up in the hands of the Rebels. Does that make the sage a rebel?
If they sell the wand to rebels, their intention is to support the Rebellion, and that makes them fair game for the Shaper regime. There are exceptions to this, such as merchants who deal with both sides, but they are few and far between. For instance, the sage in Dhonal's Keep clearly makes his wands for the Shaper army.

quote:
There's a difference between striking back and destroying everything in your path, a difference you refuse to see. Only someone intent on causing more suffering than necessary would burn crops and butcher civilians. It's senseless destruction.
It's not senseless. Hungry troops can't march, unsheltered troops are vulnerable to harsh weather, fewer soldiers can be recruited for military actions. Military actions (especially insurgencies) tend to fail when they don't have the support of the local populance. Genghis Khan engaged in a lot of 'senseless' destruction, and look where it got him.

quote:
Webster's Definition of Genocide:
The systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group.
Wiktionary's Definition of Genocide:
1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.
There's no exception to those words. No clause that states that, if the people you're genociding are enemies, then it's not really genocide. No matter how you try to wriggle out of it, the Rebels are attempting to commit genocide.
[/quote]

False. It is not genocide to target those who are actively or passively enslaving and destroying your people. The fact that they happen to be part of a nation or political group is incidental (nice try, Diki).

For example, were the Allies committing genocide when they killed the Germans and Japanese, and targeted the Nazis for imprisonment and execution post WWII? Are the Americans committing genocide when they attempt to undermine and destroy radical Islamic political groups, such as Hamas? Were the British committing genocide when they attempted to wipe out the IRA?

The fact of the matter is that if your 'political enemy' holds as one of their core beliefs that you don't have the right to exist, and actively tries to establish that wet dream, then they are all fair game. Added to which, bludgeoning an imperialistic and highly aggressive nation into submission is not genocide.
It is not genocide to target Shaper loyalists, any more than it was genocide for the Yanks to blow up Nazis and Nazi sympathisers. And if anyone gets in the way, tough titty for them!

[ Tuesday, March 04, 2008 16:07: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, March 3 2008 23:12 Profile #110
[quote=Nioca]
[QB]
quote:
No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.
Inadvertently? Such a statement suggests that either the Outsider humans have no free will, or they are too obtuse to recognize that their support of the Shapers, both materialistically and in spirit, results in further oppression and slaughter of Creations.

Also note that the Shapers have no problem with exterminating those who support free Creation colonies in a non-military capacity. Why you remain silent on this fact, while constantly whining about the mere suggestion that the Rebels might be doing the same, is a mystery to me.
[quote][qb]
quote:

However, there are more than 9 shapers within the whole of Geneforge.
Sure. Yet the opinion of the Shaper Council of Terrestia reflects the 'We must be masters of everything we create' ideology that perfuses Shaper society. There are a few good Shapers (Lilita, Carnelian), but they are in the tiny minority.

quote:

And, quite frankly, once the Shapers are removed from power, it only would become necessary to quell those that'd actively oppose the new regime...

That's what the Rebels are doing presently... killing their enemies. The sage creating a wand of disruption for Shaper loyalist troops is just as much an enemy to free creations as a Guardian in the vanguard of the Shaper army.

That's the best way to kill your enemy, Nioca. You don't just kill his troops when they invade your territory, allowing them to come back to hammer at you again and again (eg. the Awakened ending for GF 2.)
You counterstrike. You enter his territory and burn his crops, kill those who provide his soldiers with provisions and shelter, raze any of his fortifications to the ground, and butcher anyone who tries to resist.

That's the way war has (and still) is being conducted. It's the way a righteous war is meant to be conducted. It's what the Shapers did on Sucia and Drypeak, so I fail to see why the Rebels shouldn't use the same methods against an Empire which systematically enslaves and brutalizes them. They have no choice. It's either that, or die. If the Shapers and Outsider humans were to surrender to the Rebels, they would most likely be spared. No such luxury applies to 'rogue' creations.

quote:

Fact is, there is no freedom until the factions break out of their cycles of control.
A big fat red herring. Whether the Drakons are big meanies who delight in roasting puppies is a completely separate issue. We are discussing whether the Rebels are justified in waging 'indiscriminant' warfare in order to defend against enslavement and genocide.

quote:

No, you've blatantly stated that you're for killing anyone who helps the Shapers in any way, with an exception for the 'saintly' rebels. That's genocide.
No, it's not. Allow me to repeat that timeless quote by Michael Corleone:
"I don't want to kill everyone, Tom. Just my enemies."

I only support the killing of enemies of free Creations, not some innocent human who dissociates themselves from the corrupt Shaper regime, or a Shaper colony who wishes to remain neutral in the war. No Rebel I know of wants to kill 'all' humans, just the ones who are out to kill them.

quote:

It's an oxymoron to say the rebels are justified in doing what they're doing, then turn around and say that you don't support genocide.
Targeting your enemies =/= genocide. You might as well just argue that the Allies attempted to commit genocide when they nuked Japan, and carpet bombed Germany.

[ Monday, March 03, 2008 23:13: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Geology Lecture in General
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Sunday, March 2 2008 01:32 Profile #91
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Since when did liberals support utilitarian ideology?
So I guess that means you haven't heard of Peter Singer?
Singer reminds me more of a classical liberal than those neo-liberal Democrats you have in America.

[ Sunday, March 02, 2008 01:45: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Sunday, March 2 2008 01:17 Profile #106
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

See, this is another place where your logic is flawed. The Rebels aren't just after self-preservation; they plan to annihilate the Shaper empire.
The two above goals you stated are not mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary, annihilation of the Shaper empire is necessary to achieve self preservation and autonomy.

quote:

Now, if they were after just the removal the Shapers from power, I could support that. But they want to destroy it entirely.
And for good reason. If you refer back to the Rebel ending I posted for Geneforge 3, the Shaper Council from Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender, that even if the world is torn apart they will be the rulers of it.

quote:

And you say they're justified in doing so?
That's exactly what I'm saying. I didn't think I was being vague or ambigious.

quote:

Turns out, there's another word for what the Rebels are after: GENOCIDE.
I'm sorry Nioca, but I don't support genocide, I only support the killing of individuals who are against the Rebels 'in spirit'.

quote:

I also want to add that, to my knowledge, no one here is saying that the Shaper genocides were justified.
What? According to my recollection, numerous posters have justified the genocide of the Drayks and Drakons, because "If the Shapers hadn't struck first, the Drayks would have." Typical neo-con logic.

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Geology Lecture in General
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Sunday, March 2 2008 00:59 Profile #89
[quote=Bowing to the Inevitability of Nets]
[QB]
quote:
To put it simply: If you are not responsible responsible enough to handle a gun in a safe manner, the state should not let you buy one.
So you support gun ownership for those who behave responsibly with guns? Funny, I thought you wanted to impose strict gun laws on all individuals, responsible or not.

quote:

And the greatest safety for the greatest number of people comes about when no one is allowed to buy a gun.
Conjecture, and also a fantastic pipe dream. We have rigid and repressive gun restriction laws in Australia, yet gangsters and thugs are still quite capable of obtaining firearms, and the elderly are still bashed in their home by lead pipe wielding gutter trash spaced out on crack.
Gun control simply means that the scum of society will skirt around the law (as criminals are prone to do, that's why they are criminals), while unarmed law abiding citizens are left defenseless.

quote:

The safety of many can trump the rights of a few.
This isn't speaking legally here. This is morals.
Since when did liberals support utilitarian ideology? And this isn't the 'the rights of a few' that we are talking about. Every human being in nations with gun laws, with at least one arm is being denied the right to choose whether they can possess a firearm for self-defense. Don't try to minimize the enormity of the State's meddling.

quote:

You're coming down on the libertarian
Although I don't consider myself to have a political alignment, my beliefs are closest to that of a libertarian.

quote:

You can't just say it's a matter of personal decision when that's the very matter under debate.
Yes I can. Just watch me: "It's a matter of personal decision." Your disagreement does not invalidate my assertion.

quote:

Conservative ideology is based on the belief that people are good, kind, and righteous?
I'm not Conservative, so I can't say for sure. However, Conservative ideology apparently assumes that you are innocent up until you actually commit a violent crime, upon which you are dog meat.
On the other hand, liberal ideology assumes that the masses are too spastic to tie their own shoes without triggering the apocalypse, hence the need for 're-education' and excessive legislation, Orwellian style.

Hey, I just thought of something. The Outer Party didn't have guns in the Oceania of 1984. Funny that, hey?

quote:

That's probably largely reasonable, but it's those few bad apples who misbehave who manage to make things go very, very bad.
Then punish the bad apples, instead of depriving law abiding citizens of the right to defend themselves from thugs.

quote:

Supervision has nothing to do with it. Society has its toddlers, and the state is responsible for making sure there are no knives left lying around.
Yet anti-gun ideology is the equivalent of wanting to dispose of ALL knives in order to completely eliminate the possibility of any toddlers getting their hands on them, while denying responsible adults the right to bring a cut lunch to work.

quote:

Besides hunting, guns aren't helpful to anyone. Self-defense is outweighed by avoidable offense, and fighting the good fight against the government is both implausible and impractical. The sacrifice is minimal and the benefits are enormous.
So simply because you personally feel that guns aren't of a net benefit to someone, you (and the State) should have the right to prevent that individual from obtaining firearms. Their right to choose (aka. autonomy) doesn't matter to you. How incredibly selfish.

What's hilarious here is that you probably champion a woman's 'right to choose' whether she has an abortion.

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Geology Lecture in General
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Saturday, March 1 2008 22:49 Profile #85
quote:
Originally written by Bowing to the Inevitability of Nets:

[QB]The two ideas you separated are not, in fact, separate. Yes, any weapons are better than none if you need to fight the government.
It's pleasing that you're willing to acknowledge that an armed population is more likely to resist State tyranny than an unarmed population.

quote:

But the benefits of that ability when weighed against the harm done by the proliferation of guns shows that a good law, not simply the one on the books, would severely restrict or ban firearms.
I disagree. I'm not going to quibble and 'justify' my stance, since how an individual weighs up the pros and cons of a particular measure is rather subjective. I feel that in this particular instance, personal freedoms and the right to defend oneself supercede any harm that may be done as a result of lax gun laws.

quote:

Your reasoning that a gun should be a personal decision, not a legal one, is very nice and leads to anarchism.
False dilemma fallacy. Holding the belief that the State should butt out of some personal decisions is not leading to anarchism, any more than supporting a woman's right to an abortion is leading to anarchism. Being an opponent of over-regulation and excessive legislation does not make one an anarchist, any more than opposing unlimited corporate freedoms makes one a Communist.

quote:

Anarchism sounds nice and works out really terribly because trusting the collective consciences of the people is a good way to end up with very bad things.
So what you're saying is that the liberal ideology is based on the fear and mistrust of your fellow man?
That your fellow man can't be trusted with anything 'dangerous' without State supervision, much like a toddler can't be trusted with a kitchen knife without adult supervision.
That you're willing to punish and deprive the collective merely because a few bad apples might misbehave?

Just grand.

[ Saturday, March 01, 2008 22:57: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Geology Lecture in General
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Saturday, March 1 2008 18:44 Profile #83
Fie on you, nitpicker!

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Geology Lecture in General
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Saturday, March 1 2008 18:23 Profile #81
quote:
Originally written by Sprink:

[b]Arguing in circles again, but what chance does any militia have today against a military that has firearms of a caliber not available to civilians, to say nothing of armored vehicles, aircraft, bombs, and missiles?
A better chance than an unarmed populance.

quote:

Self-defense is good, but there's a cost to giving people the opportunity to defend themselves. [/b]
Even if there was a cost involved, the cost is well worth paying.

To put it simply: If you don't think you're responsible enough to handle a gun in a safe manner, then don't buy one. It should be a decision made between you and your conscience, not the state and the individual.

[ Saturday, March 01, 2008 18:25: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Geology Lecture in General
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Friday, February 29 2008 14:30 Profile #76
quote:
Originally written by The_Other_Guy:

quote:
the Superme Court has ruled that the Second Amendment was meant to apply specifically to militias
Let's look at the actual text:
quote:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
The right of the PEOPLE to keep and bear arms, not the militia. The 2nd Amendment guarantees that the militia and the government can't take your gun from you.
What, you thought radical left wingers were capable of reading? :confused:

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Geology Lecture in General
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Friday, February 29 2008 14:27 Profile #75
quote:
Originally written by Xel'Raga:

If your in a school massacre, remember, the untrained gunman will miss is you run criss-cross across the shooting plain, and you can hide behind objects if the gunman has low-caliber bullets, if he has high-caliber bullets, run like hell, also keep in mind that shotguns are short range and inaccurate.

Use tazers, lower death rate.
Or perhaps instead of running around like a rabbit in the spotlight, you could come to school strapped. Then you can pop one in any crazy who tries to shoot up the place. But then again, law abiding students can't take guns on campus, essentially making them sitting ducks.

I think it's funny when a foreigner such as myself(Australian) whose country has some of the tightest gun laws on Earth is willing to argue in favour of the lax gun laws in America.

Apparently the tender sensibilities of retarded liberals supercede the individual's right to self-defense.

[ Friday, February 29, 2008 14:28: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, February 25 2008 20:21 Profile #93
quote:
Originally written by The Ratt:

[QB]One thing you forgot, is maybe the civilians in the towns that didn't expel their shapers were actually happy with the way the towns were being run. Perhaps the towns wouldn't even exist if not for the shapers stationed there. You seem to have completely forgotten that is possible.
It's possible, it's also possible that the Shapers use threats of extreme violence to coerce the civilians to stay. But either way, that doesn't change the fact that it's god damn cowardly to hide behind civilians. Even if you don't think it's cowardly, you can't deny that it is rather asnine for the Shapers to whine about the civilian casualities caused by the Rebel tactics, when their armed forces mingle with the civilian population. What the hell did they expect? If soldiers are willing to fight urban warfare, then be prepared for some civilian casualties. Lebanon recently learnt that lesson, the hard way.

If the Shapers truly were concerned about the lives of their subjects, then they would ask them to vacate the settlement prior to the siege. They would set up refugee camps or negotiate ' protected areas' with the Rebels, where their subjects would be safe from harm. Oh wait, I forgot, Shapers don't negotiate with their creations.

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, February 25 2008 20:09 Profile #92
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Yes, you should. Thank you.
My pleasure. The Shaper mentality of 'We will retain our positions of privilege, no matter the cost' is quite eye opening, isn't it? In fact, the Shapers remind me of Arcturus Mengsk from Starcraft: "You'll regret that. You don't seem to realize my situation here. I will not be stopped. Not by you, or the Confederates, or the Protoss, or anyone. I will rule this sector or see it burnt to ashes around me!"

The good ole "If I can't have it, no one can." mentality. Whether the Shapers subjects suffer and die to retain the status quo is apparently incidental.

quote:

They have an entire culture in which all humans are born into and live their whole lives under. There are no other cultures to look too, no different opinions to choose from. Shaper society controls people just as much as Shapers control creations.
I disagree. From what I have seen, Outsider human society is semi-autonomous, and not as Orwellian as you make out. Those who practice magick are usually under close Shaper scrutiny, but the average peon can usually fly below the radar. In fact, it appears to me that the Shapers are rather elitist, and tend to remain apart from Outsider society.

Outsider humans aren't placed in 're-education' camps, and are capable of making the realisation that serviles are intelligent creations. They just choose not to, because it benefits them to continue to hold the worldview that serviles are nothing more than dumb animals.

This is where we have a fundamental disagreement. You seem to believe that the Outsider humans hold anti-Creation views primarily due to social conditioning, that it's not the poor dears' fault. I believe that they hold such views primarily because it is convenient for them to do so. There may be some social conditioning involved, but nothing which a decent individual can't overcome.

quote:

But if you are justified in waging total war, then the Shapers are justified waging total war too.
No, because the circumstances for Rebels and Shapers aren't symmetrical. Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter simply to retain your position of privilege so that you can continue oppressing and genociding, after having oppressed and genocided sapient races for centuries, is not justified.

Engaging in indiscriminant slaughter of your oppressors out of self-preservation, and to wriggle out from under the control of an oppressive regime, is justified. And let's not kid ourselves, the distinction between 'Shaper' and 'Outsider human' isn't significant. Outsider humans willingly profit off Creation slave labour, and support Shaper genocide, as much as the Shapers themselves do.

You're focusing too much on the method, without considering the context, Diki. Your mentality is slack-jawed and simplistic. It's the equivalent of postulating "If a woman can strike her rapist in self-defense, aren't you also justifying his right to strike her back?" Hell no, not when you consider the context. The rapist shouldn't have tried to play hide the salami with her in the first place.

The Shapers and the Outsider humans created and enslaved the serviles and then butchered any who displayed any independent thought, the ones who targeted several races of sapient beings for extermination. They are the oppressor (ie. the rapists), and fight so that they can continue to oppress. And you expect their victims to treat them fairly? To inconvenience themselves and risk their own lives so that they don't accidently don't kill an oppressor who bakes bread for the Shaper army instead of an oppressor who actually serves in a regiment of said army? Are you kidding me? When the oppressed are faced by their genocidal oppressors, then the gloves come off. When you have to fight such people, anything goes. Simple as that.

[ Monday, February 25, 2008 20:12: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, February 25 2008 15:06 Profile #89
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

"Every settlement is given the chance to expel its Shapers to avoid destruction. Not all make that choice."

Shapers willing to see entire settlements destroyed due to their cowardice and hubris. Who here said that the Shapers don't hide behind their civilians? :rolleyes:
I did. And I'd hardly call it cowardice to stand and fight, and this is hardly proof that the Shapers hide behind their civilians either.
So the Palestinian terrorists who fire at Israeli targets from areas heavily populated with civilians are not hiding behind their civilians? They are just 'standing and fighting' in a non-cowardly fashion?

The fact of the matter is that the Rebels only have a grudge against the Shapers, yet the Shapers feel it necessary to involve non-Shaper humans in the conflict. They hide in settlements (note: settlements tend to have high numbers of civilians, in case you aren't aware), knowing full well that the entire settlement will be destroyed due to their presence.

That's not the behaviour of a hero. It's the behaviour of a coward who feels it is necessary to bring everyone else down with them.

[ Monday, February 25, 2008 15:10: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, February 25 2008 15:04 Profile #88
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

[QB]LT: I see it's a lost cause. I'll let you carry on with your bigoted viewpoint; it's obvious I'm not going to change it (and I second Xel and the Ratt on the Nazi references; knock it off already).
Well, I could use the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Turks as an example, instead. Or Bosnian Muslim and Croatian genocide perpetrated by the Serbs. But I'm much more familiar with the Holocaust, and had several Slavic relatives suffer under Nazi occupation. So it makes sense to use it for comparison of the Shapers policies of oppression and genocide.

The fact of the matter is that when genocide occurs in the real world, we react with horror and disgust. Throughout our childhood, we are taught the horrors of the Holocaust, and everyone swears "Never again." Yet here many posters are, defending the genocide perpetrated by the Shapers. I know that it is only a PC game, but the fact that you can justify genocide on an ideological level is quite scary.

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, February 25 2008 14:55 Profile #86
*double post*

[ Monday, February 25, 2008 14:56: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, February 25 2008 14:53 Profile #85
IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/Red_Wizard/hide.jpg)

"Every settlement is given the chance to expel its Shapers to avoid destruction. Not all make that choice."

Shapers willing to see entire settlements destroyed due to their cowardice and hubris. Who here said that the Shapers don't hide behind their civilians? :rolleyes:

[ Monday, February 25, 2008 14:56: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, February 25 2008 14:38 Profile #83
quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

I don't have G3, so could you please post a screenshot for me?
Hmm, I dunno. I'd have to reinstall the game and load up on of my old saves. Should I do that for someone who didn't purchase Geneforge 3? :D

IMAGE(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y188/Red_Wizard/shapers.jpg)

quote:
But the humans have spent their whole lives under Shaper dominance and ideology too, so in a sense, they've also been brainwashed.
... In many cases, it's just ignorance.
I don't buy it, because throughout the entire series we don't see any serious attempt by the Shapers to 'brainwash' the Outsiders with propaganda, and there is no such thing as 'mass media' to make such a feat possible.

And even if they did, that is hardly an excuse. Outsiders work frequently around creations, so they should be able to see through any Shaper lies. And the fact that the Rebellion contains independent serviles (I fail to see how the Shapers could stifle THAT tasty bit of knowledge) is the final nail in the coffin that serviles are only dumb animals.

And as to the targeting of the Drayks for genocide, it doesn't matter what propaganda you are fed. Any reasonable and decent person would lean back on their heels and issue an empathatic "WTF!?" if they heard that an entire race was to be wiped out, simply because they are too independent to live (that's the excuse the Shapers give to the Outsiders, as far as I'm aware).

From what I've seen throughout the series, the Outsiders don't support the Rebellion because they profit under the current status quo imposed by the Shaper regime.
Even if there is the slight possibility that a grown adult human is stupid enough to get suckered in to believing lies and supporting enslavement and genocide, I don't really care. Someone that mentally stunted deserves to die. I'm not going to shed any tears if they happen to get caught in the crossfire, and there's no way in hell I'd inconvenience myself (at the risk of my own troops lives) to try and spare them.

This is what many people can't seem to grasp. I'm not for the killing of innocent civilians. I'm for the killing of all of my enemies, even the vocal ones, even the ones who support soldiers in a non-military manner. In the Geneforge world, that translates to the bulk of the humans, not just a noisy minority infected by extremism. They are all enemies of the Rebellion. So you don't need to send a troupe of soldiers into a settlement to selectively kill the Shapers (while losing your own troops in the process), you can just blow the whole settlement to smithreens with no guilt whatsoever. That's how wars are meant to be fought, none of this pussyfooting BS that some of the pansies here tout.

As Michael Corleone once said: "I don't feel I have to wipe everybody out, Tom. Just my enemies."

[ Monday, February 25, 2008 15:16: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, February 25 2008 03:49 Profile #77
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

[QB]Intentionally? No. But you see, their rebellion effectively proves (to Shaper eyes) that the Shaper ideologies were right all along.
The Shapers always think that their restrictive treatment of Creations is right. Whether the Creations fight back against genocide and oppression is incidental, at best. The Shapers and Outsiders would still be genociding and enslaving them, either way, and this is demonstrated by the fact that despite centuries of peace, the Shapers and their Outsider minions are still *******s. They haven't unbarred Drayks, they haven't changed their attitudes regarding independent creations, they haven't even considered servile emancipation.

You might as well argue that any Jewish resistance against the Nazis supported Nazi ideology, by confirming that the Jews were indeed violent savages out to destroy Germany. And that since the Jews supported ideology, the Germans who supported the Nazi's 'Final Solution' get off clean.

Good work, Schatner. I applaud your efforts to exonerate those who either passively or actively assist in enslavement and genocide, while condemning any resistance whatsoever performed by the oppressed to defend themselves against the oppressor.

quote:

That creations are savage, feral beasts and nothing more.
I've yet to go on a safari so I may be wrong here, but I don't know of any savage feral beasts that can master Shaping, magick, battle craft, and tactical warfare.

quote:

So the Rebels are unintentionally supporting Shaper ideologies.
They aren't 'supporting' squat, whether a Shaper or Outsider human chooses to hold bigoted beliefs is entirely up to them. One doesn't need to think too hard to realize that the Rebels have a perfectly good reason for rising up. The Rebels act to destroy the old guard and its antiquated ideals, and the only way to do this is through a good ole fashioned beat down. If the Outsiders can't realise this due to their mental retardation, then that's hardly the fault of the Rebels.

I guess we could sit around quibbling about 'intentionally support' and 'unintentionally' support, but the point is moot, and I've got better things to do.
We both know that there is an important difference between holding prejudical views (ergo. supporting a cruel regime 'in spirit') while going out of your way to assist in the oppression and genocide of a race, and having said race being made a scapegoat. You're just trying to obfuscate the issue with a one trick pony.

Do you have anything better than semantics, or should I turn in for the night?

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, February 25 2008 03:11 Profile #75
The rebels support the Shaper regime?

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
What is better Shapers or Rebels? in Geneforge 4: Rebellion
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Monday, February 25 2008 02:58 Profile #73
Nioca:
quote:

Alright, I'm going to play along here for a minute. Basically, if something supports the Shaper regime in any way, it has to die. Correct?
Yep, with the exception of perhaps those serviles and other creations who have been brainwashed from birth to slavishly serve the Shapers. I would rather see re-educated. But if they happen to die at the hands of the Unbound, that's just unavoidable collateral damage. Jews, including those in the camps, also died when the Allies carpet bombed German cities.

But other than that, you're correct. I'm glad that I hammered my point home, and that you were able to grasp it with minimum confusion (a rare feat!).

Note that in the Geneforge universe, it's not just the Shapers or a small bunch of extremists who hold anti-Creation views.
Anti-Creation views are widespread amongst the human population, both Shaper and Outsider, otherwise the humans would have risen up in disgust and protested for Creation emancipation.

Anti-Creation views are as widespread in Geneforge as anti-semitism was in Nazi Germany, both at the level of the Nazi Party, and the average German citizen. If you were a Jew (or Slav, or Gypsy, or Communist) during that period, would you shed any tears if the Allied carpet bombing killed a bunch of Germans? I doubt my Slavic ancestors did.

Granted, there are some Outsiders who feel 'sympathetic' towards the mistreatment of serviles, but that doesn't stop them from exploiting them as a source of free labour and continuing to perpetuate the current status quo.

[ Monday, February 25, 2008 03:10: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00

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