What is better Shapers or Rebels?

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AuthorTopic: What is better Shapers or Rebels?
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #100
quote:
Originally written by Xel'Raga:

Yeah, shapers are defiantly the evil, strong rapist, and the rebels the weak old victim. Give me a break, but hey, on second thought......

The woman takes out a gun and the rapist tries to run away but she shoots him in the head, seem right to you LT?

Firstly, "defiantly" is not the same word as "definitely".

Secondly, while I wouldn't lose too much sleep over something like that happening, it's not an accurate analogy. The Shapers have never shown any desire to retreat or surrender: the only time we've seen them negotiate with rebels is when they were trying to make them betray the rebellion.

By the way, knowing Jeff, I don't think Nazi Germany is the real-world allegory he had in mind when he made Geneforge. If anything, he was thinking of the American Civil War:

quote:
We are not only fighting armies, but a hostile people, and must make old and young, rich and poor, feel the hard hand of war, as well as their organized armies.
Sound familiar? Sherman's March to the Sea destroyed civilian infrastructure, including railroads, farms and houses, on a massive scale; the war might have been lost without it. Was it right or wrong?

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Sherman's March? Ah yes. "War is cruelty, there is no use trying to reform it. The crueler it is the sooner it's over." I believe it is.
Posts: 21 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
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the shapers have the right idea, creating life should be controlled. However, over the many years of crating life, and destroying it, they have lost sight of the true meaning of life. The look in that servile's eyes as it awakens into full consciousness is soon dimmed by the mistreatment that the shapers dish out. The love of life that thahd comes to know in the brief time before it is thrown into combat, to live or die, isn't even seen anymore by the shapers.

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turn to the dark side of the force.Take this message to your heart-Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through Passion i gain strength. Through strength i gain power. Through power gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken.
the force shall free me.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Tuesday, February 19 2008 08:00
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however, the rebels are not correct either. Many simply lust for power, and wish to steal the power from the oppressors without understanding them. The rest believe in what they do, still not seeing that the Shapes have a point. However, their attempt to counter Shaping with Shaping, the only way they can win, causes much more harm than good. The war has been laying waste to Terrestria. By mistreating life in the same way as the Shapers (forcing them to fight, like the Thahds and whatever) they have become like them.

[ Saturday, March 01, 2008 11:23: Message edited by: brock petersdorf-nelson ]

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turn to the dark side of the force.Take this message to your heart-Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through Passion i gain strength. Through strength i gain power. Through power gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken.
the force shall free me.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Tuesday, February 19 2008 08:00
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The Trakovites are, in a way, looking at the grand scale of things. As someone said earlier, they are the hippies of Terrestria. They believe that the power of Shaping, of creating life magically, should be stopped. This view would, indeed, stop the suffering quite well. However, by stopping the creating of life, they have also stopped a source of happiness. Most creations are happy and content with their lot in life. As the Final Fantasy character Seymour said, you must kill someone to release them from the suffering of life. In his madness, he failed to see the joy that living holds for all of the world's living creatures, especially humans. To end suffering is to end everything else!

Edit: By the way, all, i am a new member here, and i am a TOTAL GEEK, if anyone wants to know more about me

Edit: the last board i was on prefered each point being a separate post, but i an handle that.

[ Wednesday, March 12, 2008 11:00: Message edited by: brock petersdorf-nelson ]

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turn to the dark side of the force.Take this message to your heart-Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through Passion i gain strength. Through strength i gain power. Through power gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken.
the force shall free me.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Tuesday, February 19 2008 08:00
Electric Sheep One
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Profile #105
Welcome to the boards.

People here prefer it if you use the EDIT button to add more stuff to your last post, rather than make several posts in a row. It just makes it easier to read and to keep track of who is saying what. When you visit the boards a lot, it becomes quite instinctive to expect a new person when you start reading a new message. So then if someone double posts, a lot of people get a little jab of annoyance.

A lot of little jabs amounts to a sizable offense, so double posting is frowned on a lot harder than you might think. This is a common policy on message boards, not just a peculiarity of this board. If you want to be a thorough geek, you'll need to know this kind of thing.

[ Saturday, March 01, 2008 12:03: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

See, this is another place where your logic is flawed. The Rebels aren't just after self-preservation; they plan to annihilate the Shaper empire.

The two above goals you stated are not mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary, annihilation of the Shaper empire is necessary to achieve self preservation and autonomy.

quote:

Now, if they were after just the removal the Shapers from power, I could support that. But they want to destroy it entirely.

And for good reason. If you refer back to the Rebel ending I posted for Geneforge 3, the Shaper Council from Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender, that even if the world is torn apart they will be the rulers of it.

quote:

And you say they're justified in doing so?

That's exactly what I'm saying. I didn't think I was being vague or ambigious.

quote:

Turns out, there's another word for what the Rebels are after: GENOCIDE.

I'm sorry Nioca, but I don't support genocide, I only support the killing of individuals who are against the Rebels 'in spirit'.

quote:

I also want to add that, to my knowledge, no one here is saying that the Shaper genocides were justified.

What? According to my recollection, numerous posters have justified the genocide of the Drayks and Drakons, because "If the Shapers hadn't struck first, the Drayks would have." Typical neo-con logic.

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

See, this is another place where your logic is flawed. The Rebels aren't just after self-preservation; they plan to annihilate the Shaper empire.

The two above goals you stated are not mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary, annihilation of the Shaper empire is necessary to achieve self preservation and autonomy.

No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.

quote:
quote:

Now, if they were after just the removal the Shapers from power, I could support that. But they want to destroy it entirely.

And for good reason. If you refer back to the Rebel ending I posted for Geneforge 3, the Shaper Council from Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender, that even if the world is torn apart they will be the rulers of it.

The council equals 9 Shapers. However, there are more than 9 shapers within the whole of Geneforge. And, quite frankly, once the Shapers are removed from power, it only would become necessary to quell those that'd actively oppose the new regime... but then we're just heading back in a cycle of control again, aren't we? No freedom; just bigger and tougher-to-kill jailers.

EDIT: Correction; Council consists of 9, not 3. Good catch, Nick.

Fact is, there is no freedom until the factions break out of their cycles of control. But right now, neither faction, with the exception of the Trakovites, is willing to give or meet half-way. Everyone (Shapers, Rebels, and potentially Trakovites) holds a mentality of all-or-nothing. Either win/keep control of the world and destroy all who even slightly oppose you, or die trying. And until one of those factions decides to relent, aiming for something more feasible and even possible, the only difference between the regimes will be how scaly the overlords are.

quote:
quote:

And you say they're justified in doing so?

That's exactly what I'm saying. I didn't think I was being vague or ambigious.

quote:

Turns out, there's another word for what the Rebels are after: GENOCIDE.

I'm sorry Nioca, but I don't support genocide, I only support the killing of individuals who are against the Rebels 'in spirit'.

No, you've blatantly stated that you're for killing anyone who helps the Shapers in any way, with an exception for the 'saintly' rebels. That's genocide. It's an oxymoron to say the rebels are justified in doing what they're doing, then turn around and say that you don't support genocide. The Rebels are trying to commit genocide. If you justify what the rebels are doing, you justify genocide. Plain and simple. But you most certainly cannot have it both ways.

quote:
quote:

I also want to add that, to my knowledge, no one here is saying that the Shaper genocides were justified.

What? According to my recollection, numerous posters have justified the genocide of the Drayks and Drakons, because "If the Shapers hadn't struck first, the Drayks would have." Typical neo-con logic.

No, the posters are saying that the Shapers had reasons for doing so, not that they were justified in doing so (with an exception for Nayld, who's an oxymoron in every sense of the term).

[ Monday, March 03, 2008 08:26: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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The Shaper Council consists of nine. A shame they don't ride dragons and wear the nine rings.

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In the fiery depths of Quessa-Uss, dark lord Galdring made a creation, and in this creation, he poured his cruelty, his malice, and his will to dominate all life! One creation to rule them all!

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[quote=Nioca]
[QB]
quote:
No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.

Inadvertently? Such a statement suggests that either the Outsider humans have no free will, or they are too obtuse to recognize that their support of the Shapers, both materialistically and in spirit, results in further oppression and slaughter of Creations.

Also note that the Shapers have no problem with exterminating those who support free Creation colonies in a non-military capacity. Why you remain silent on this fact, while constantly whining about the mere suggestion that the Rebels might be doing the same, is a mystery to me.
[quote][qb]
quote:

However, there are more than 9 shapers within the whole of Geneforge.

Sure. Yet the opinion of the Shaper Council of Terrestia reflects the 'We must be masters of everything we create' ideology that perfuses Shaper society. There are a few good Shapers (Lilita, Carnelian), but they are in the tiny minority.

quote:

And, quite frankly, once the Shapers are removed from power, it only would become necessary to quell those that'd actively oppose the new regime...


That's what the Rebels are doing presently... killing their enemies. The sage creating a wand of disruption for Shaper loyalist troops is just as much an enemy to free creations as a Guardian in the vanguard of the Shaper army.

That's the best way to kill your enemy, Nioca. You don't just kill his troops when they invade your territory, allowing them to come back to hammer at you again and again (eg. the Awakened ending for GF 2.)
You counterstrike. You enter his territory and burn his crops, kill those who provide his soldiers with provisions and shelter, raze any of his fortifications to the ground, and butcher anyone who tries to resist.

That's the way war has (and still) is being conducted. It's the way a righteous war is meant to be conducted. It's what the Shapers did on Sucia and Drypeak, so I fail to see why the Rebels shouldn't use the same methods against an Empire which systematically enslaves and brutalizes them. They have no choice. It's either that, or die. If the Shapers and Outsider humans were to surrender to the Rebels, they would most likely be spared. No such luxury applies to 'rogue' creations.

quote:

Fact is, there is no freedom until the factions break out of their cycles of control.

A big fat red herring. Whether the Drakons are big meanies who delight in roasting puppies is a completely separate issue. We are discussing whether the Rebels are justified in waging 'indiscriminant' warfare in order to defend against enslavement and genocide.

quote:

No, you've blatantly stated that you're for killing anyone who helps the Shapers in any way, with an exception for the 'saintly' rebels. That's genocide.

No, it's not. Allow me to repeat that timeless quote by Michael Corleone:
"I don't want to kill everyone, Tom. Just my enemies."

I only support the killing of enemies of free Creations, not some innocent human who dissociates themselves from the corrupt Shaper regime, or a Shaper colony who wishes to remain neutral in the war. No Rebel I know of wants to kill 'all' humans, just the ones who are out to kill them.

quote:

It's an oxymoron to say the rebels are justified in doing what they're doing, then turn around and say that you don't support genocide.

Targeting your enemies =/= genocide. You might as well just argue that the Allies attempted to commit genocide when they nuked Japan, and carpet bombed Germany.

[ Monday, March 03, 2008 23:13: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.

Inadvertently? Such a statement suggests that either the Outsider humans have no free will, or they are too obtuse to recognize that their support of the Shapers, both materialistically and in spirit, results in further oppression and slaughter of Creations.

Can you at least read the posts in-context? Sheesh, it's like you have the attention span of a fly on caffeine.

For context:
quote:
No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Also note that the Shapers have no problem with exterminating those who support free Creation colonies in a non-military capacity. Why you remain silent on this fact, while constantly whining about the mere suggestion that the Rebels might be doing the same, is a mystery to me.
Because that's beside the point. We're not debating whether the Shapers are justified to do that. We both know the answer to that is no. We're debating whether the Rebels are justified in their acts. You think they are. I say otherwise. Hence, the impasse.

quote:
quote:

However, there are more than 9 shapers within the whole of Geneforge.

Sure. Yet the opinion of the Shaper Council of Terrestia reflects the 'We must be masters of everything we create' ideology that perfuses Shaper society. There are a few good Shapers (Lilita, Carnelian), but they are in the tiny minority.

Yet, according to your draconian policies, anyone who supports the Shapers in any way must die. It's not black or white; there's a lot of gray area in the middle, which is why your policy on this doesn't work. Have you considered that some of the outsiders are just trying to live their lives under the regime? Or are the people just trying to feed their families as much an enemy as the warriors out on the field?

quote:
quote:

And, quite frankly, once the Shapers are removed from power, it only would become necessary to quell those that'd actively oppose the new regime...


That's what the Rebels are doing presently... killing their enemies. The sage creating a wand of disruption for Shaper loyalist troops is just as much an enemy to free creations as a Guardian in the vanguard of the Shaper army.

Wrong. It's not by the sage's hand that free creations die. It's a direct result of someone pointing that wand at a creation and firing. Let's turn the situation around. Say aforementioned wand ends up in the hands of the Rebels. Does that make the sage a rebel?

quote:
That's the best way to kill your enemy, Nioca. You don't just kill his troops when they invade your territory, allowing them to come back to hammer at you again and again (eg. the Awakened ending for GF 2.)
You counterstrike. You enter his territory and burn his crops, kill those who provide his soldiers with provisions and shelter, raze any of his fortifications to the ground, and butcher anyone who tries to resist.

There's a difference between striking back and destroying everything in your path, a difference you refuse to see. Only someone intent on causing more suffering than necessary would burn crops and butcher civilians. It's senseless destruction.

quote:
That's the way war has (and still) is being conducted. It's the way a righteous war is meant to be conducted.
There's no such thing as a righteous war. Just because that's how things have been done doesn't make it right, and I'll add that wars have been conducted without going out of one's way to commit atrocities that you apparently support.

quote:
It's what the Shapers did on Sucia and Drypeak, so I fail to see why the Rebels shouldn't use the same methods against an Empire which systematically enslaves and brutalizes them. They have no choice. It's either that, or die. If the Shapers and Outsider humans were to surrender to the Rebels, they would most likely be spared. No such luxury applies to 'rogue' creations.
Why? Because two wrongs DO NOT make a right! Because the Rebels in fact do have a choice! Just because the oppressor tried to genocide them does not give them the right to repay in kind! In fact, it denies them that right all the more simply because they of all people SHOULD KNOW BETTER.

quote:
quote:

Fact is, there is no freedom until the factions break out of their cycles of control.

A big fat red herring. Whether the Drakons are big meanies who delight in roasting puppies is a completely separate issue. We are discussing whether the Rebels are justified in waging 'indiscriminant' warfare in order to defend against enslavement and genocide.

The two are related more closely then you realize, but I'll concede. If only to keep to the more pressing issues.

quote:
quote:

No, you've blatantly stated that you're for killing anyone who helps the Shapers in any way, with an exception for the 'saintly' rebels. That's genocide.

No, it's not. Allow me to repeat that timeless quote by Michael Corleone:
"I don't want to kill everyone, Tom. Just my enemies."

Get a dictionary. Look up genocide. No, wait, how about I bring the definitions to you.
quote:
Webster's Definition of Genocide:
The systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group.
Wiktionary's Definition of Genocide:
1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

There's no exception to those words. No clause that states that, if the people you're genociding are enemies, then it's not really genocide. No matter how you try to wriggle out of it, the Rebels are attempting to commit genocide.

quote:
I only support the killing of enemies of free Creations, not some innocent human who dissociates themselves from the corrupt Shaper regime, or a Shaper colony who wishes to remain neutral in the war. No Rebel I know of wants to kill 'all' humans, just the ones who are out to kill them.
And how do you suppose the Outsider humans do that? The Rebels can't even dissociate themselves from the Shapers and their ways, let alone some poor guy stuck smack in the middle of Terrestria!

quote:
quote:

It's an oxymoron to say the rebels are justified in doing what they're doing, then turn around and say that you don't support genocide.

Targeting your enemies =/= genocide. You might as well just argue that the Allies attempted to commit genocide when they nuked Japan, and carpet bombed Germany.

It does if your enemies are pretty much all of a certain nationality. And, surprise! In the Rebel's case, it is!

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Originally by Nioca:

quote:
Get a dictionary. Look up genocide. No, wait, how about I bring the definitions to you.

quote:
Webster's Definition of Genocide:
The systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group.
Wiktionary's Definition of Genocide:
1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

There's no exception to those words. No clause that states that, if the people you're genociding are enemies, then it's not really genocide. No matter how you try to wriggle out of it, the Rebels are attempting to commit genocide.
You're really arguing the wrong definition here, Nioca. Nationality can be wriggled around. Political opinion cannot.

Dikiyoba.

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EDIT: Oops. Massively awful misinterpretation on my part (of Dikiyoba's post).

[ Tuesday, March 04, 2008 14:03: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

Sheesh, it's like you have the attention span of a fly on caffeine.

For context: No, they can achieve self-preservation and autonomy by overthrowing the Shapers, rather than obliterating both them and any two-year-old who might have inadvertently supported the shapers.

So you admit that the Outsider loyalists (apart from the two year olds, the little dears) have free will, and know that their actions assist in the continuation of an era of oppression and genocide. Nice to know that you're willing to concede that point.

As for the two year olds, you're right. I don't support the targeting of two year olds, as they aren't enemies of the Rebels. But if they happen to get killed while their parents are being targeted, that's just tough. Stuff like that happens in war all the time.

You don't think two year olds were killed in the carpet bombings of Dresden, the nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the napalming of Vietnam, the bombing campaign against Serbia, the artillery bombardments and air strikes against the West Bank and Lebanon...? I could go on and on, but I don't think I need to drill the point home with a sledgehammer.

quote:

Because that's beside the point. We're not debating whether the Shapers are justified to do that. We both know the answer to that is no.

Nice to see that you're willing to concede another point. So rebellion against the Shapers is justified, nay, a moral responsibility?

quote:

Yet, according to your draconian policies, anyone who supports the Shapers in any way must die.

Shaper loyalists must die.

quote:

Have you considered that some of the outsiders are just trying to live their lives under the regime?

Like the Germans under the Nazi regime? The people get the government that they deserve. If the Shaper loyalists refuse to stand up and fight against the draconian policies of their government while supporting genocide and enslavement both materialistically and in spirit, then they deserve everything they get.

Do you think my Slavic ancestors in the camps cried when German 'civilians' were killed in the indiscriminant aerial bombardment of Germany? And no, this isn't an appeal to emotion, it's just a simple observation. If you and your family are being exterminated and enslaved, the fact that a few 'civilians' who either implicitly or explicitly supported your extermination were killed in the fight for your freedom is the least of your worries.

quote:

Wrong. It's not by the sage's hand that free creations die.

Haha, good stuff. So I can construct bombs for terrorists, but as long as I'm not the one who actually detonates them and kills kaffir, I'm absolved of blame.

quote:

It's a direct result of someone pointing that wand at a creation and firing. Let's turn the situation around. Say aforementioned wand ends up in the hands of the Rebels. Does that make the sage a rebel?

If they sell the wand to rebels, their intention is to support the Rebellion, and that makes them fair game for the Shaper regime. There are exceptions to this, such as merchants who deal with both sides, but they are few and far between. For instance, the sage in Dhonal's Keep clearly makes his wands for the Shaper army.

quote:
There's a difference between striking back and destroying everything in your path, a difference you refuse to see. Only someone intent on causing more suffering than necessary would burn crops and butcher civilians. It's senseless destruction.

It's not senseless. Hungry troops can't march, unsheltered troops are vulnerable to harsh weather, fewer soldiers can be recruited for military actions. Military actions (especially insurgencies) tend to fail when they don't have the support of the local populance. Genghis Khan engaged in a lot of 'senseless' destruction, and look where it got him.

quote:
Webster's Definition of Genocide:
The systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group.
Wiktionary's Definition of Genocide:
1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

There's no exception to those words. No clause that states that, if the people you're genociding are enemies, then it's not really genocide. No matter how you try to wriggle out of it, the Rebels are attempting to commit genocide.
[/quote]

False. It is not genocide to target those who are actively or passively enslaving and destroying your people. The fact that they happen to be part of a nation or political group is incidental (nice try, Diki).

For example, were the Allies committing genocide when they killed the Germans and Japanese, and targeted the Nazis for imprisonment and execution post WWII? Are the Americans committing genocide when they attempt to undermine and destroy radical Islamic political groups, such as Hamas? Were the British committing genocide when they attempted to wipe out the IRA?

The fact of the matter is that if your 'political enemy' holds as one of their core beliefs that you don't have the right to exist, and actively tries to establish that wet dream, then they are all fair game. Added to which, bludgeoning an imperialistic and highly aggressive nation into submission is not genocide.
It is not genocide to target Shaper loyalists, any more than it was genocide for the Yanks to blow up Nazis and Nazi sympathisers. And if anyone gets in the way, tough titty for them!

[ Tuesday, March 04, 2008 16:07: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
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Timid Wolf over here's "arguement" fails. Let's see why.

Scenario One:

Deep in the Other Continent, an enterprising Shaper University is running a bakery with specially Shaped bread that doesn't go bad. Of course, the Shapers don't do the actually work in the blazing bakery, that's for the Serviles. From the Other Continent, a caravan brings the magical bread to Terrestia. Here, they are sold first to the Army, then to the civilians. One of the loyalist soldiers with this bread makes it to Aziraph Camp Gamma, and dies scouting around the Rebel Camp. His killer, a Rebel, victoriously takes it, as it is necessary to feed the soldiers. Therefore, the soldiers are being fed, in part, by the toiled slavings of enslaved Serviles in the Shaper Empire, and are passively supporting it.

Scenario Two:

The Unbound are released. Terror spreads across Western Terrestia as the Western Morass and the fortresses beyond fall. Mad Drakons kill everyone. The Shapers have to fight to push down minor insurrections and panicked rebellions. Eventually, these are wiped out either by the Unbound. Indiscriminately, the Drakons have killed brethren.

The second one is game canon. The first one is never explicitely stated, but fits easily.

EDIT:

quote:
False. It is not genocide to target those who are actively or passively enslaving and destroying your people. The fact that they happen to be part of a nation or political group is incidental (nice try, Diki).
Yes it is.

quote:
For example, were the Allies committing genocide when they killed the Germans and Japanese, and targeted the Nazis for imprisonment and execution post WWII? Are the Americans committing genocide when they attempt to undermine and destroy radical Islamic political groups, such as Hamas? Were the British committing genocide when they attempted to wipe out the IRA?
Allies: Did the Allies ruthlessly kill every German they got their hands on? Didn't think so. The Allies didn't even kill all of the Nazis, as they tolerated in the name of political freedom things like Neo-Nazis, and the old Nazis were allowed to surrender. Some were just horrid war criminals that needed to be killed.

*A Note: The connection between the Nazis and the Shapers is slight. Stop bringing it up. And I don't care about your supposed Slavic ancestors. You just keep dredging them and the Nazis up to appeal to emotion*

Americans: Are we killing every Islamic political group or Muslim? Didn't think so.

British: Is every Irishman a member of the IRA then?

quote:
The fact of the matter is that if your 'political enemy' holds as one of their core beliefs that you don't have the right to exist, and actively tries to establish that wet dream, then they are all fair game. Added to which, bludgeoning an imperialistic and highly aggressive nation into submission is not genocide.
Somewhat. No one's arguing that the Drayks and Drakons shouldn't fight back, and that the Shapers have the right to simply kill them all. Just because they do it doesn't mean it's right to do it.

And "highly aggressive"? I don't think so. If anything, the Rebels are being highly aggressive. They didn't have to go beyond the Ashen Isles, they didn't have to bring the horrors of this Great War to the far flung corners of Terrestia. But they did. Now the Shapers are just taking back their territory, where the civilians (Rocky Point, Dillame, Electrified Fields refugees) are glad for a return to normality.

[ Tuesday, March 04, 2008 17:37: Message edited by: Kinggolden ]

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"I'm happy I'm the mentally disturbed person I am." -Nioca
"Yes, Iffy is a demon." -Iffy
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Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
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Originally by Lepus timidus:

quote:
Genghis Khan engaged in a lot of 'senseless' destruction, and look where it got him.
Genghis Khan isn't exactly a positive role model.

Sorry, Lepus, but I'm convinced if I were a servile or drayk, I would be completely unable to trust you. Your determination to kill every enemy and disregard for any life that doesn't directly support you means I can't trust you not to target me as an enemy at a future date over some other issue. It means I can't trust you not to do something like release the Unbound into Illya Province with no attempts to save anyone in the Safehouse or to send another round of Unbound in after the Shapers surrender. In short, I can't trust you to do a better job than the Shapers are doing. I'd join Gesselin Freehold, so I'm sure I'm fighting and probably dying for freedom, not for a different form of oppression.

Dikiyoba.

Edit: Fixed quote.

[ Tuesday, March 04, 2008 17:33: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]

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Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

So you admit that the Outsider loyalists (apart from the two year olds, the little dears) have free will, and know that their actions assist in the continuation of an era of oppression and genocide. Nice to know that you're willing to concede that point.
No, I'm not. You're under this wonderful fantasy that the Outsiders can do whatever they darn well please, and that if they rebel, they get a nice shiny medal and moral satisfaction. Fact is, the only thing people like that will get is a thorn lodged in their heart. And that's only if they're lucky enough to avoid becoming Creation chow for some Shaper's pet.

And here's another thing: most outsiders don't see the darker side of the Shapers. They don't see toiling slaves, cruel experiments, and tyrannical overlords. They see creatures who enjoy serving humans, mystical new bioinventions, and benevolent, if strict, rulers. The average outsider doesn't even set foot inside a Shaping lab. So what are they to know about the mysterious Shapers?

Now look through the eyes of the same outsider, and look at the destruction the Rebels are causing. Except, from an outsider's eye, they don't look like Rebels; they look like power-hungry terrorists who's sole purpose in life is to destroy and pillage anything in their way. The fact that they consist of creations is all the more support for Shapers and strict creation controls.

quote:
quote:

Because that's beside the point. We're not debating whether the Shapers are justified to do that. We both know the answer to that is no.

Nice to see that you're willing to concede another point. So rebellion against the Shapers is justified, nay, a moral responsibility?

Rebellion being justified? Yes. Rebellion being a moral responsibility? Not unless the person can actually do anything significant. Getting themselves or, god forbid, others killed doesn't count.

Genocide against the Shapers being justified? No. It doesn't even need a reason, the mere idea of the question speaks for itself.

quote:
quote:

Have you considered that some of the outsiders are just trying to live their lives under the regime?

Like the Germans under the Nazi regime? The people get the government that they deserve. If the Shaper loyalists refuse to stand up and fight against the draconian policies of their government while supporting genocide and enslavement both materialistically and in spirit, then they deserve everything they get.

Do you think my Slavic ancestors in the camps cried when German 'civilians' were killed in the indiscriminant aerial bombardment of Germany? And no, this isn't an appeal to emotion, it's just a simple observation. If you and your family are being exterminated and enslaved, the fact that a few 'civilians' who either implicitly or explicitly supported your extermination were killed in the fight for your freedom is the least of your worries.

It's funny you should drag that up (again), but I seem to recall that the Nazi regime was also the government of many of the Jews who were killed. Tell me, did the Jews get the government they deserved as well?

quote:
quote:

Wrong. It's not by the sage's hand that free creations die.

Haha, good stuff. So I can construct bombs for terrorists, but as long as I'm not the one who actually detonates them and kills kaffir, I'm absolved of blame.

Hmmm. Maybe if I start drawing connections between the rebellion and Al-Queda, and then throw them in your face every chance I get, you'll finally lay off the Nazi garbage.

Anyway, you're assuming that everyone who opposed the rebels, directly or indirectly, is equally guilty. Allow me to clue you in: they're not. I'm not saying that the sage isn't an enemy, I'm saying that the sage isn't as guilty as the person or makes the kill, if only because the sage doesn't know what the wand is actually being used for. He doesn't know that it's being used to oppress free creations, he just thinks it's to put down a radical group of malcontents. In the bomb scenario, the person making it knows exactly what it's being used for, and thus is as guilty as the actual bomber, if not more so for knowingly enabling the crime in the first place.

But this explanation is probably lost on you, because you keep proving that you're incapable of seeing things as other than black or white.

quote:
quote:
quote:
Webster's Definition of Genocide:
The systematic killing of, or a program of action intended to destroy, a whole national or ethnic group.
Wiktionary's Definition of Genocide:
1. The systematic killing of substantial numbers of people on the basis of ethnicity, religion, political opinion, social status, or other particularity.
2. Acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group.

There's no exception to those words. No clause that states that, if the people you're genociding are enemies, then it's not really genocide. No matter how you try to wriggle out of it, the Rebels are attempting to commit genocide.

False. It is not genocide to target those who are actively or passively enslaving and destroying your people. The fact that they happen to be part of a nation or political group is incidental (nice try, Diki).

And it's just coincidence that each and every one of the targets are either Shapers or closely tied to the Shapers? I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it. And, honestly, I don't think you buy it either. The Rebels are after genocide. Freedom is an afterthought that'll quickly end up discarded when the Drakons take the throne.

---

So, after further consideration, I have a question. You act as if it was such a glaringly obvious decision to support the Rebels. So why, in every poll made after GF4, does the majority of voters support the Shapers over the Rebels?

(In this one, it's 65% for Shapers, 35% for Rebels; that's almost a 2:1 ratio for the Shapers)

[ Tuesday, March 04, 2008 18:38: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
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Diki:

quote:

Sorry, Lepus, but I'm convinced if I were a servile or drayk, I would be completely unable to trust you.

So you don't trust anyone who employs scorched earth tactics?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_earth

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
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You have focused on destroying people more than destroying infrastructure. And honestly, if the world becomes no more than a burnt husk, it doesn't matter whether the Shapers or Rebels are the master of it, because there's nothing left.

Dikiyoba.

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Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shaper
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There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources, not people. You'd turn Terrestria into a massive, burnt-up graveyard.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
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quote:
So you admit that the Outsider loyalists (apart from the two year olds, the little dears) have free will, and know that their actions assist in the continuation of an era of oppression and genocide. Nice to know that you're willing to concede that point.

As for the two year olds, you're right. I don't support the targeting of two year olds, as they aren't enemies of the Rebels. But if they happen to get killed while their parents are being targeted, that's just tough. Stuff like that happens in war all the time.

You don't think two year olds were killed in the carpet bombings of Dresden, the nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, the napalming of Vietnam, the bombing campaign against Serbia, the artillery bombardments and air strikes against the West Bank and Lebanon...? I could go on and on, but I don't think I need to drill the point home with a sledgehammer.
Ok, I will respond to this quote divided by paragraphs.
Paragraph 1: The average outsider doesn't know jack about the shapers or rebels, all they know is that the shapers are the government, and that makes them better. So, yes they do have free will, just ignorant free will.

Paragraph 2: Thats why I don't understand why you are so pro-war, do you like killing children?

Paragraph 3:God dammit, GENEFORGE IS NOT LIKE THE REAL WORLD!!!!!!!!

quote:
Nice to see that you're willing to concede another point. So rebellion against the Shapers is justified, nay, a moral responsibility?

No one here believes that the massacre of the Drayks was reasonable, but the rebellion is not justified if they use the same, hated tactics that the shapers use.(like if a country went to war with another country because they where cruel in battle, but then the attacking country uses the same cruelty, its called being big, fat, hypocrite.)
However, you seem to say that the shapers fighting back is wrong, their current position is fine, if the average grunt isn't a complete arse.

quote:
Shaper loyalists must die.
Aha! But according to you earlier, all people who support the shapers must die, so all those ignorant farmers MUST die, by your point of view.

quote:
Like the Germans under the Nazi regime? The people get the government that they deserve. If the Shaper loyalists refuse to stand up and fight against the draconian policies of their government while supporting genocide and enslavement both materialistically and in spirit, then they deserve everything they get.

Do you think my Slavic ancestors in the camps cried when German 'civilians' were killed in the indiscriminant aerial bombardment of Germany? And no, this isn't an appeal to emotion, it's just a simple observation. If you and your family are being exterminated and enslaved, the fact that a few 'civilians' who either implicitly or explicitly supported your extermination were killed in the fight for your freedom is the least of your worries.

I have said this before, the average citizen doesn't see the bad side of the shapers.

quote:
Haha, good stuff. So I can construct bombs for terrorists, but as long as I'm not the one who actually detonates them and kills kaffir, I'm absolved of blame.

If the terrorists stole it from a storage complex, no the person who made the bomb isn't, what you are suggesting is that a person made a bomb and then GAVE it to the terrorists, it isn't like that in the situation you quoted.

quote:
False. It is not genocide to target those who are actively or passively enslaving and destroying your people. The fact that they happen to be part of a nation or political group is incidental (nice try, Diki).
Last time I checked, there are no drayk/drakon labor workforces and they rarely die in battle, so yes it is genocide.

quote:
It is not genocide to target Shaper loyalists, any more than it was genocide for the Yanks to blow up Nazis and Nazi sympathisers. And if anyone gets in the way, tough titty for them!

Even if people hate a fraction, it doesn't mean killing them en mass isn't genocide.

My god LT. Oh and by the way, I haven't read the posts after the one I quoted, as soon I saw this I had an urge to respond, so don't smack me if someone else already said what I'm saying.

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I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
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Can a mod lock this thread? This isn't going anywhere besides "I'm right, you're wrong".

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Blah blah blah I can't hear you!
Posts: 78 | Registered: Thursday, November 4 2004 08:00
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No reason to, we are doing more than contradicting each other.

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For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
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Profile Homepage #124
Originally by olop4444:

quote:
This isn't going anywhere besides "I'm right, you're wrong".
Probably not, but this isn't the first time the debate has occured and probably won't be the last. Just ignore this thread.

Dikiyoba.

[ Wednesday, March 05, 2008 16:30: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]

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Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00

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