What is better Shapers or Rebels?

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AuthorTopic: What is better Shapers or Rebels?
Councilor
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Originally by Xel'Raga:

quote:
quote:
This debate has reset itself due to a influx of new debaters
Yeah.
Meh. It's pretty much the same people.

Originally by Nioca:

quote:
Fortunately for the Drakons, they can always shape some more. Thus, that isn't really a problem for them.
Ah, but serviles are hard to create. (Apparently more difficult than creations like roamers and battle betas.) That's why they are capable of reproducing naturally. Creating a bunch of serviles would take a long time. The drakons need the serviles and drayks and even human rebels to survive, otherwise the Trakovite ending wouldn't be an option.

Dikiyoba.

Edit: New page again...

[ Friday, February 15, 2008 11:50: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]

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Agent
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quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by Xel'Raga:

quote:
quote:
This debate has reset itself due to a influx of new debaters
Yeah.
Meh. It's pretty much the same people.

Originally by Nioca:

quote:
Fortunately for the Drakons, they can always shape some more. Thus, that isn't really a problem for them.
Ah, but serviles are hard to create. (Apparently more difficult than creations like roamers and battle betas.) That's why they are capable of reproducing naturally. Creating a bunch of serviles would take a long time. The drakons need the serviles and drayks and even human rebels to survive, otherwise the Trakovite ending wouldn't be an option.

Dikiyoba.

Just a small addition. Just because they can Shape more Serviles, doesn't mean the Serviles could do the intended job. These guys are highly skilled mechanics, probably from Derenton Freehold. Because that is where the Servile Mechanics in the Fens were from. Anyways, just because the Drakons make new ones doesn't mean that they are skilled in mechanics.

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Starving the Drakons out might not be such a good strategy either; Shaping more or less gives an unlimited supply of free food. Nalyd doubts that the Drakons use farms anyways, seeing as they're probably pure carnivores. Shape a boatload of Ornks every week and you're good. If you can't Shape Ornks, pretty much anything will do. Fyoras, Thahds. . . Not as efficient, but it should do.

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Creations simply don't have the diversity of thought that humans do. It just isn't built into them. They're hardwired to follow certain patterns of thought, and the Drayks and Drakons were war machines, so they are hardwired to follow violent thoughts. It's okay for the humans to target Drayks and Drakons for extermination because the Drayks and Drakons are unanimously against them. The original slaughtering of Drayks was wrong, and I do not support that at all, but the current war is justified. If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination. But they weren't.

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I am a very old member of the geneforge trilogy. the way i see it is that the rebels are causing death and destruction in there attempt towards freedom. the shapers have the right to keep the land that have been theirs for generations. The little rebellions like the trajokovites are nothing to fear, but should be considered in all matters. the rebels are willing to destroy all life on terrestria just to get freedom. but i dont agree with complete tyranny either. so i think the shapers are the best and that the shapers should turn over the Ashen Isles to the rebels and free creations( utterly ridiculous as that sounds ) and let them live there forever. but have a few shapers go and investigate the isles every few years incase of and uprising. SHAPERS is my final answer

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UR-DRAKONS RULE. Ur-Drakons are the god of geneforge 4. They cant be beat. Ur-Drakons shall rule forever. Those who disagree should be destroyed. (I am Seriously Serious about the Seriousness of me being Serious.
Posts: 47 | Registered: Tuesday, January 22 2008 08:00
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And the sholia SUCK

[ Friday, February 15, 2008 13:55: Message edited by: Shaper Markis ]

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UR-DRAKONS RULE. Ur-Drakons are the god of geneforge 4. They cant be beat. Ur-Drakons shall rule forever. Those who disagree should be destroyed. (I am Seriously Serious about the Seriousness of me being Serious.
Posts: 47 | Registered: Tuesday, January 22 2008 08:00
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And double-posting SUCK, you know how to use the edit, come on peeps!

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For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Councilor
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Necromancy SUCK too!

Seriously, if for some reason you must correct someone, at least make it polite and relevant. Please.

Dikiyoba.

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Agent
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quote:
S3RIOSLEY IF FOR SOM3 R3ASON U MUST CORACT SOMEONE AT LEAST MAEK IT POLIET AND RELEVANT!!1!111!! LOL PLZ!11!1 WTF LOL
FYT, noob.

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Amusing, the person who wrote the noob episode is being called a noob.... oh well.

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For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Councilor
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I was hoping that one more useless post then would make for less useless posts in the future. Clearly, I was mistaken. Sorry 'bout that.

Dikiyoba.

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Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Khai of Khem:

Starving the Drakons out might not be such a good strategy either; Shaping more or less gives an unlimited supply of free food. Nalyd doubts that the Drakons use farms anyways, seeing as they're probably pure carnivores. Shape a boatload of Ornks every week and you're good. If you can't Shape Ornks, pretty much anything will do. Fyoras, Thahds. . . Not as efficient, but it should do.
You neglect one problem not thought of in the games. Shaping would take effort, and time. You can't shape Serviles that easily, but why not? They obviously take a lot of energy to create, and are more intelligent. The basic principle of energy conversion is output and input are never equal (Or something like that I believe). You'd literally be eating yourself. And seeing as PC creations can be absorbed at will, makes you wonder just what creations are actually made of, and if it'd be good to eat!

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well, since ornks are creations and they are considered livestock, they are good to eat.
Posts: 48 | Registered: Thursday, December 20 2007 08:00
Agent
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I thought, in the case of livestock and serviles, Shapers make base creations and give them the ability to breed so that essence is not wasted.

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Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
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GF1 has the factory where you find that serviles and ornks can be made from essence vats and are bred for reproduction. Either method will produce them. Most creations are self reproducing. I think rotgroths are the exception for breeding.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
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We are told repeatedly that low-level creations like thahds and artila are shaped specificially so they can't reproduce. However, this rule seems to get violated more often than not.

Dikiyoba.

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Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
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Most Creations are made so that can't reproduce but shapers make exceptions when it suits them and rebels to my knowledge never followed by that rule in the first place

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Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
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Both of them are fanatical fools. Trakovite all the way. If the rebels win, they want ALL creation laws gone, what kind of insanity would that be!?

Shapers want creations to have zilch rights, if they win, the common folk are kept under a brutal reign and the shapers put up new laws that allow effetively the instant and un-provoked extermination of any group if they are found to be even talking about creations in a wrong way. Cruel and fanatical.

Trakovites on the other hand wish to abolish shaping, as far as I know however, they do not express any desire to actually destroy creations. Meaning that Serviles and Ornks would probably survive.

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*Eyes potential targets*
Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Jeran Korak:

Shapers want creations to have zilch rights, if they win, the common folk are kept under a brutal reign and the shapers put up new laws that allow effetively the instant and un-provoked extermination of any group if they are found to be even talking about creations in a wrong way. Cruel and fanatical.
Nope. Try again.

Shapers have in fact instated rights to protect creations, and obviously feel some obligation toward their safety. 'Brutal' also is rather overkill. They keep a strict and somewhat harsh reign over the common folk, but they don't kill someone for having sympathy toward the creations. It's attempting to unlawfully gain Shaper secrets that result in extermination.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

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quote:
Originally written by Xel'Raga:

[QB]Creations simply don't have the diversity of thought that humans do. It just isn't built into them. They're hardwired to follow certain patterns of thought,

Speculation.

quote:

and the Drayks and Drakons were war machines, so they are hardwired to follow violent thoughts.

Really?

Dryss (a Drakon) from the Taker Toll road in GF2:

The PC:
"That is too bad. Creations should not have to fight to be free. But if they must ...

Dryss: ""Yesss. I suppose I would not kill and eat the Shapersss if I could avoid it. I would rather have happy, quiet life, being wealthy and eating meat. But that isss not the life I was created into.";

Issss-Ta (a Drayk), from Zhass-Usss in GF2:

PC: "You don't want the Shapers to be destroyed?"

Issss-Ta: "I do not want it to be necessary. But remember, it was your kind who created us, and then you decided that we should no longer exist. We have to defend ourselves."

quote:

It's okay for the humans to target Drayks and Drakons for extermination because the Drayks and Drakons are unanimously against them.

False. Even the most anti-human of the Drakons didn't wish to engage in the extermination of homo sapiens.

quote:

If the Drayks were in power, then the humans would have been targeted for extermination.

More speculation.

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
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In the spirit of this debate, I'm going to draw some Serviles mating.

Only, right now, I'm busy with another project. Maybe later. BOW chicka WAH WAH!

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Khai:

quote:

The Rebels are far too desperate and uncaring for civilian lives.

I always find it hilarious how so many posters are willing to condemn the Rebels for simply fighting a war as it is meant to be fought against a callous and genocidal regime.

The fact of the matter is that the Shapers took the fight to innocent Drayks and serviles during their purging and/or enslavement of anything considered to independent to live, both prior to the events on Sucia, during and after the events on Sucia, and during and after the events at Drypeak. Now they lure the fight to heavily populated areas in their own territory, showing little concern for their own civilians.
And when put on the back foot, they are willing to mass produce their own insane creations to ravage the lands instead of negotiating a peace with those whom they have oppressed for centuries.

This attitude is reflected in the Rebel ending for Geneforge 3, where the Shaper Council states that they will continue fighting against overwhelming odds, as even if the world is turned into a burnt husk, they will be masters of it.

Some pro-Shaper loyalists would rationalize "By that stage, the worms are already out of the can, the Shapers are just making an already bad situation worse, who cares." No doubt that's true, but if you lose you lose, resorting to hiding behind hordes of mad creations and civilians in your own country while you fight, only so that you can retain your position of privilege over other life forms, is as petty and cowardly as you can get.
What's the point of the Shapers even fighting at that stage? To preserve tyranny? To 'rule over a burnt husk'? To oppress those who simply want to 'be free' (or to exist, in the case of the Drayks/Drakons/Gazers)?

This is why the humans in Geneforge seem like such ignorant scumbags. Very few of them will say "You retard Shapers, what on earth are you thinking? You created Drayks, Drakons, Eyebeasts and serviles, started a war with them, and now you're hiding behind us while they retaliate? WTF?! You are killing your own subjects you pompous arrogant airheads".

No, instead the Rebellion is criticised for simply doing what is required to survive. They whine about the Rebellion because it does not inconvenience itself to not kill the 'civilians' of the enemy, despite the Shapers themselves clearly not caring about the welfare of their own subjects.

This just confirms in my mind that any restraint on behalf of the Rebellion should not be expected, because there is very little sympathy for their cause amongst the ranks of Shapers and humans. This doesn't mean that the rebels should just give up and submit to being reabsorbed by their Shaper masters. Quite the contrary. It just means they shouldn't worry about killing civilians anymore, they can just loosen up on their moral rigidity and start fighting the war like wars are supposed to be fought.

There's the enemy to Creation emancipation, wipe it out. No, it's not just the Shapers hiding behind their creations and Outsider subjects, it is every one of them, they are all enemies. The Outsider loyalist humans don't just supply the Shapers and fight in their army, they support Shaper idealogy, they support Shaper supremacy and exploitation of their creations.

So there's no reason for the Drakons to neglect employing certain tactics which result in indiscriminant slaughter. They can release the Unbound with no qualms whatsoever.

[ Sunday, February 24, 2008 21:03: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

Khai:

quote:

The Rebels are far too desperate and uncaring for civilian lives.

I always find it hilarious how so many posters are willing to condemn the Rebels for simply fighting a war as it is meant to be fought against a callous and genocidal regime.

By killing the people they claim to fight for?

quote:
The fact of the matter is that the Shapers took the fight to innocent Drayks and serviles during their purging and/or enslavement of anything considered to independent to live, both prior to the events on Sucia, during and after the events on Sucia, and during and after the events at Drypeak.
An argument with the basis of "two wrongs make a right" typically ranges from flimsy to exceedingly flimsy. Just FYI.

quote:
Now they lure the fight to heavily populated areas in their own territory, showing little concern for their own civilians.
I'll also add that you never cease to amaze me when you pull gigantic loads of crap like that out of thin air.

The Shapers never lured the fight to populated areas. The Rebels, both Drakons and Human, made a very conscious choice of where to hit. Aside from existing, the Shapers have done very little to change the battlefields, aside from moving the fighting away from more heavily populated areas.

quote:
And when put on the back foot, they are willing to mass produce their own insane creations to ravage the lands instead of negotiating a peace with those whom they have oppressed for centuries.
It's rather hard to negotiate with something that's annihilating anything that isn't a Rebel. As for the mass production of creations, we've already been over this. By the time the Shapers release the wild creations, there's no collateral left to damage.

quote:
This attitude is reflected in the Rebel ending for Geneforge 3, where the Shaper Council states that they will continue fighting against overwhelming odds, as even if the world is turned into a burnt husk, they will be masters of it.
Pot. Kettle. 'Nuff said.

quote:
Some pro-Shaper loyalists would rationalize "By that stage, the worms are already out of the can, the Shapers are just making an already bad situation worse, who cares." No doubt that's true, but if you lose you lose, resorting to hiding behind hordes of mad creations and civilians in your own country while you fight, only so that you can retain your position of privilege over other life forms, is as petty and cowardly as you can get.
By the time that comes, the Shapers are no longer releasing creations into their own country, but into a desolate no-man's-land brought courtesy of the Drakons. And where/how in the heck did you come up with them hiding behind civilians? From what I've seen, it's the other way around.

quote:
What's the point of the Shapers even fighting at that stage? To preserve tyranny? To 'rule over a burnt husk'? To oppress those who simply want to 'be free' (or to exist, in the case of the Drayks/Drakons/Gazers)?
To try and salvage what's left of their Empire, to survive. Which is really what they've been doing all along, if you think about it.

quote:
This is why the humans in Geneforge seem like such ignorant scumbags. Very few of them will say "You retard Shapers, what on earth are you thinking? You created Drayks, Drakons, Eyebeasts and serviles, started a war with them, and now you're hiding behind us while they retaliate? WTF?! You are killing your own subjects you pompous arrogant airheads".

No, instead the Rebellion is criticised for simply doing what is required to survive. They whine about the Rebellion because it does not inconvenience itself to not kill the 'civilians' of the enemy, despite the Shapers themselves clearly not caring about the welfare of their own subjects.

This just confirms in my mind that any restraint on behalf of the Rebellion should not be expected, because there is very little sympathy for their cause amongst the ranks of Shapers and humans. This doesn't mean that the rebels should just give up and submit to being reabsorbed by their Shaper masters. Quite the contrary. It just means they shouldn't worry about killing civilians anymore, they can just loosen up on their moral rigidity and start fighting the war like wars are supposed to be fought.

There's the enemy to Creation emancipation, wipe it out. No, it's not just the Shapers hiding behind their creations and Outsider subjects, it is every one of them, they are all enemies. The Outsider loyalist humans don't just supply the Shapers and fight in their army, they support Shaper idealogy, they support Shaper supremacy and exploitation of their creations.

So there's no reason for the Drakons to neglect employing certain tactics which result in indiscriminant slaughter. They can release the Unbound with no qualms whatsoever.

Alright, I'm going to play along here for a minute. Basically, if something supports the Shaper regime in any way, it has to die. Correct?

[ Sunday, February 24, 2008 22:10: Message edited by: Nioca ]

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Nioca:
quote:

Alright, I'm going to play along here for a minute. Basically, if something supports the Shaper regime in any way, it has to die. Correct?

Yep, with the exception of perhaps those serviles and other creations who have been brainwashed from birth to slavishly serve the Shapers. I would rather see re-educated. But if they happen to die at the hands of the Unbound, that's just unavoidable collateral damage. Jews, including those in the camps, also died when the Allies carpet bombed German cities.

But other than that, you're correct. I'm glad that I hammered my point home, and that you were able to grasp it with minimum confusion (a rare feat!).

Note that in the Geneforge universe, it's not just the Shapers or a small bunch of extremists who hold anti-Creation views.
Anti-Creation views are widespread amongst the human population, both Shaper and Outsider, otherwise the humans would have risen up in disgust and protested for Creation emancipation.

Anti-Creation views are as widespread in Geneforge as anti-semitism was in Nazi Germany, both at the level of the Nazi Party, and the average German citizen. If you were a Jew (or Slav, or Gypsy, or Communist) during that period, would you shed any tears if the Allied carpet bombing killed a bunch of Germans? I doubt my Slavic ancestors did.

Granted, there are some Outsiders who feel 'sympathetic' towards the mistreatment of serviles, but that doesn't stop them from exploiting them as a source of free labour and continuing to perpetuate the current status quo.

[ Monday, February 25, 2008 03:10: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Shaper
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So the Rebels must also die as well?

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

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Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00

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