What is better Shapers or Rebels?

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AuthorTopic: What is better Shapers or Rebels?
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #150
As for me, I'm careful not to push my luck with the Administration, especially after having been warned by them.

quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

I'm very careful not to repeat the same assertions ad nauseum, especially when they have been soundly refuted.
*stares, dumbfounded, then breaks into raucous laughter*

...are you kidding me?! Your entire debate has practically been how Shapers are evil, heartless Nazis and how the Rebels are saintly heroes forced to do evil by the bad guys, repeated over and over and over, despite evidence and good sense to the contrary, with a side of how Outsiders are the equivalent of Nazi supporters. Then you claim that you don't repeat the same assertions constantly, even when soundly refuted? Ha! And I thought the Rebels were hypocrites! :D

FYI, regarding your little jab at me, you simply disagreeing with me does not make the argument 'soundly refuted', no matter how much you say otherwise. At best, it makes it contested.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
BANNED
Member # 10430
Profile #151
Nioca:
quote:

As for me, I'm careful not to push my luck with the Administration, especially after having been warned by them.

I never thought you were capable of producing an insult that was warning worthy.

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #152
I've refrained from ever showing it, and for good reason.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
Profile Homepage #153
quote:
*stares, dumbfounded, then breaks into raucous laughter*

...are you kidding me?! Your entire debate has practically been how Shapers are evil, heartless Nazis and how the Rebels are saintly heroes forced to do evil by the bad guys, repeated over and over and over, despite evidence and good sense to the contrary, with a side of how Outsiders are the equivalent of Nazi supporters. Then you claim that you don't repeat the same assertions constantly, even when soundly refuted? Ha! And I thought the Rebels were hypocrites!

FYI, regarding your little jab at me, you simply disagreeing with me does not make the argument 'soundly refuted', no matter how much you say otherwise. At best, it makes it contested.
IMAGE(http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-flame.gif)
This reminds me of the old topic.... Anyway, I have said my view, happy flaming!

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For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 14311
Profile #154
is this thread nothing more than a flame war, people contantly telling everyone else why they are wrong, and proffering a more reasonable opinion, only to be shot down?! I have taken to reading only the very short messages, because they are the only ones worth reading! sheesh, calm down and at least attempt to understand the other person's point of view!

incidentally, if someone would explain how karma works i would appreciate it, i am young and have been on only 1 other board. a...relaxed dungeons and dragons discussion board.

Edit: thanks Kinggolden

[ Monday, March 31, 2008 15:13: Message edited by: brock petersdorf-nelson ]

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turn to the dark side of the force.Take this message to your heart-Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through Passion i gain strength. Through strength i gain power. Through power gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken.
the force shall free me.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Tuesday, February 19 2008 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #155
Till the advent of page 7, it was a debate. They happen occasionally, sometimes get heated, but are generally nothing to worry about (unless you're a participant). Heck, you might even learn something.

With the advent of page 7, though, this one turned into a travesty.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #156
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

Till the arrival of Lepus Timidus, it was a debate. They happen occasionally, sometimes get heated, but are generally nothing to worry about (unless you're a participant). Heck, you might even learn something.

With the arrival of Lepus Timidus, though, this one turned into a troll fest.

FYT.

Brock Petersdorf-Nelson: Karma is simply a rating system between members. You rate the other person a one through five, and then the average is your karma rating, denotated by the number of stars under your name.

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"I'm happy I'm the mentally disturbed person I am." -Nioca
"Yes, Iffy is a demon." -Iffy
"All (Spiderweb) servers should be taken down, erased, and then subjected to dissolution by alkahest." -Alorael
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
Profile Homepage #157
quote:

quote:
Till the arrival of Lepus Timidus, it was a debate. They happen occasionally, sometimes get heated, but are generally nothing to worry about (unless you're a participant). Heck, you might even learn something.

With the arrival of Lepus Timidus, though, this one turned into a troll fest.
FYT


Its pretty much true, with Nayld, Nicoa and myself, the last debate topic was a discussion, although LT did troll a little in the last topic, it wasn't this bad, right now Nicoa and LT are just bouncing and rebounding at each other.

--------------------
For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
BANNED
Member # 10430
Profile #158
If I'm trolling, why don't you just ignore me, you dumb chits?

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Agent
Member # 4574
Profile #159
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

If I'm trolling, why don't you just ignore me, you dumb chits?
That's what I've been telling them to do. :rolleyes: Doesn't seem to be in the Spiderwebbers capability to ignore a troll though, even Ed.

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"I'm happy I'm the mentally disturbed person I am." -Nioca
"Yes, Iffy is a demon." -Iffy
"All (Spiderweb) servers should be taken down, erased, and then subjected to dissolution by alkahest." -Alorael
Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #160
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

If I'm trolling, why don't you just ignore me, you dumb chits?
Because, unfortunately, someone might actually believe you and/or your ideas.

(That, and I'm always up for a good debate on something I'm knowledgeable about, even if it is against a troll. After all, who makes a better sparring opponent than someone who's just trying to perpetuate a response? :P )

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
Profile Homepage #161
*silence*
Hey, whats going on? Oh wait? whats that you say? LT is banned?

WOOOOOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOO!

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For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7711
Profile #162
Well, I think as far as the story goes, the Shapers, in as far as even though the government is oppressive at times, they keep the peace, protect the people, and do their best to keep shaping from getting out of hand.

Still... I love the drayks and drakons, they're so much fun to have as your creations, and at the very least, I definitely like the rebel ending of G4 where you end up being a extremely powerful leader and ruler.

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"...Sometimes swirling Force is just swirling Force. It gets all us old Jedi excited at our age, so we go 'Oooh, destiny!'"
-Jolee Bindo
Posts: 6 | Registered: Monday, November 27 2006 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
Profile Homepage #163
quote:
Originally written by bl00drequiem:

Well, I think as far as the story goes, the Shapers, in as far as even though the government is oppressive at times, they keep the peace, protect the people, and do their best to keep shaping from getting out of hand.

Still... I love the drayks and drakons, they're so much fun to have as your creations, and at the very least, I definitely like the rebel ending of G4 where you end up being a extremely powerful leader and ruler.

People like power, and shapers aren't 100% bad, its just that some members are deluded.

[ Saturday, March 22, 2008 13:29: Message edited by: Xel'Raga ]

--------------------
For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Warrior
Member # 8285
Profile #164
Its a very complicated matter, but when it comes to it I think the rebels are the lesser of two evils. They have a much greater capacity for change. The shapers have been set in their ways for much too long to change them. The rebels may currently be overzealos due to some of the Drakons, but I have faith that their leader will rein them in and that they will see reason. :D

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A duke is just a duke but you see, I am "The Duke"
Posts: 65 | Registered: Saturday, March 10 2007 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
Profile Homepage #165
quote:
Originally written by The Duke:

Its a very complicated matter, but when it comes to it I think the rebels are the lesser of two evils. They have a much greater capacity for change. The shapers have been set in their ways for much too long to change them. The rebels may currently be overzealos due to some of the Drakons, but I have faith that their leader will rein them in and that they will see reason. :D
Sorry, but have you finished the rebel endings? Because I see it hard to believe that with the evidence planted in the game. Can you explain your position more?

--------------------
For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 15228
Profile #166
To me the shapers are the lesser of the two evils, they're oppressive and i don't think anyone doesn't at least sympathize with the original rebel goals, but if the Shapers are Hitler, than the Rebels are Atila the Hun on crack with a nuclear arsenal.

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To speak the truth one must first see it through both eyes.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, March 9 2008 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 7711
Profile #167
quote:
Originally written by The Duke:

Its a very complicated matter, but when it comes to it I think the rebels are the lesser of two evils. They have a much greater capacity for change. The shapers have been set in their ways for much too long to change them. The rebels may currently be overzealos due to some of the Drakons, but I have faith that their leader will rein them in and that they will see reason. :D
Heh, not so sure about all that, I mean, Ghladring seems perfectly happy with setting loose the unbound and burning the world and murdering millions of innocents.

The way I see it, the Drakons are potentially even worse than the Shapers, because they seem to have absolutely no moral reservations about the wholesale slaughter of anything that isn't a drakon, for the most part (asides from that random Trakovite drakon), and seem to be becoming more and more arrogant with each generation. There really doesn't seem to be anyone to reign them in, as far as we have seen.

I think the rebellion definitely has redeeming factors, namely some of the serviles, the drayks, and the human rebels. However, the drakons definitely dominate the faction.

Now, personally, I would say the Trakovites are the best, simply because Shaping seems WAY to dangerous a power to me. To much playing god :P

But yeah, since the drakons are in control, I maintain that the Shapers are better. A lesser of two evils.

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"...Sometimes swirling Force is just swirling Force. It gets all us old Jedi excited at our age, so we go 'Oooh, destiny!'"
-Jolee Bindo
Posts: 6 | Registered: Monday, November 27 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #168
I say right now the Drakons and Shapers are about morally equal. However due the drakons main method of gaining survival/wining/gaining power involves increasing their level of arrogance,insanity and distancing them selfs from the the original rebel values of freedom, to me means the drakons will morally only get worse. The shaper main strategy to win however is to loosen their laws and become more tolerant in some areas to undermine the rebellion will help morally improve them.

In a rebel ending I wouldn't put it pass the shapers to sign treaties with creations that are fed up with the drakons allowing them some creation rights in order to undermine the rebellion.

In summary the longer this war goes on the more tolerant the shapers get and the crazier drakons and their isn't much left of the human side of the rebellion to speak of.

[ Tuesday, March 25, 2008 22:50: Message edited by: Safey ]

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7233
Profile Homepage #169
I didn't read every page from start to end, but I'll just put forward my views.

I feel that the Shapers are 'less evil' than the rebels. I agree with how the rebel system works, The drakons, however, seems to have gone past the point of just rebelling. In the process, they have used many canisters, causing them to become rather heartless. IMHO, the rebellion would be better off without them

Killing tons of shapers just isn't my cup of tea, I guess, but killing tons of innocent people is even worse.

~Mel

[ Wednesday, March 26, 2008 02:55: Message edited by: Melvin ]
Posts: 6 | Registered: Saturday, June 17 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
Profile Homepage #170
quote:
Originally written by Ale193:

To me the shapers are the lesser of the two evils, they're oppressive and i don't think anyone doesn't at least sympathize with the original rebel goals, but if the Shapers are Hitler, than the Rebels are Atila the Hun on crack with a nuclear arsenal.
Nooooo! the inevitable Nazi refrences!!

quote:
I feel that the Shapers are 'less evil' than the rebels.
You can't generalize like that, there is a difference between the drakon and the human rebellion, heres a example

Human efforts: Illya safehouse
Drakon efforts: Unbound

quote:
IMHO, the rebellion would be better off without them


Yes and no. Yes to the fact that they would have better morale, but no to the fact that without the drakons, the rebellion is as powerful as the travokites.

--------------------
For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 7233
Profile Homepage #171
quote:

Yes and no. Yes to the fact that they would have better morale, but no to the fact that without the drakons, the rebellion is as powerful as the travokites.
Agreed, but at least they're not betraying their original beliefs. The rebellion was originally started to overcome the shapers. Now, with the drakons, it seems to me like their goal is changing.

quote:
quote:
I feel that the Shapers are 'less evil' than the rebels.
You can't generalize like that, there is a difference between the drakon and the human rebellion, heres a example

Human efforts: Illya safehouse
Drakon efforts: Unbound
True, but the ones who are currently running the rebellion do not seem to be the humans, but the drakons. Therefore, it seems rather wrong to refer to the rebellion as different groups when it is actually the drakons controlling the actions of the human rebels.

~Mel

[ Saturday, March 29, 2008 03:03: Message edited by: Melvin ]
Posts: 6 | Registered: Saturday, June 17 2006 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7195
Profile #172
Heh, at first I ignored completely this thread, but then today I saw it's always at the top of the Geneforge 4 forum, so I looked at only the last page, and I have to laugh.

But still, putting all other stuff behind, don't you realize, that the games are meant to be morally ambigious (i hope i spelled it right), and that that's it. One one hand you have a group that wants freedom and equality, but are willing to do almost anything to acchieve it, and on the other hand you have a group who want to be gods and have all other beings as slaves or worse, but they managed to create a peaceful, although mindless and castlike (i meant to say here, that the society resembles the Indian society with castes), society.
And therefore, since people are (thankfully) not of a single mind, there will always be different views.
Still, it is remarkable how convincing some of you can be in this virtual environment that internet has become. I wonder how many of you take such firm stances in you real lives as well.

[ Sunday, March 30, 2008 02:20: Message edited by: AnarhIztok2511 ]

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USA is evil!
Europe is bust!
Wars are elsewhere!
Unity is a must!
Posts: 185 | Registered: Sunday, June 4 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 14311
Profile #173
quote:
Originally written by Xel'Raga:

quote:
Originally written by The Duke:

Its a very complicated matter, but when it comes to it I think the rebels are the lesser of two evils. They have a much greater capacity for change. The shapers have been set in their ways for much too long to change them. The rebels may currently be overzealos due to some of the Drakons, but I have faith that their leader will rein them in and that they will see reason. :D
Sorry, but have you finished the rebel endings? Because I see it hard to believe that with the evidence planted in the game. Can you explain your position more?

Now THAT is he kind of talking i like seeing! asking if he understands, and saying he disagrees in a gentle and understanding way! Go you!

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turn to the dark side of the force.Take this message to your heart-Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through Passion i gain strength. Through strength i gain power. Through power gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken.
the force shall free me.
Posts: 32 | Registered: Tuesday, February 19 2008 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
Profile Homepage #174
quote:
Originally written by brock petersdorf-nelson:

quote:
Originally written by Xel'Raga:

quote:
Originally written by The Duke:

Its a very complicated matter, but when it comes to it I think the rebels are the lesser of two evils. They have a much greater capacity for change. The shapers have been set in their ways for much too long to change them. The rebels may currently be overzealos due to some of the Drakons, but I have faith that their leader will rein them in and that they will see reason. :D
Sorry, but have you finished the rebel endings? Because I see it hard to believe that with the evidence planted in the game. Can you explain your position more?

Now THAT is he kind of talking i like seeing! asking if he understands, and saying he disagrees in a gentle and understanding way! Go you!

Oh, thanks.

--------------------
For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00

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