What is better Shapers or Rebels?

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AuthorTopic: What is better Shapers or Rebels?
Councilor
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Originally by Nalyd:

quote:
True, but the Shapers have been showing an increasingly moderate trend.
But the Shapers are only moderating because of the war. (Or, more accurately, because they risk losing the war.) Without the war, they'd be the same as ever. If they win the war before the moderation goes mainstream, they'll go back to the way they were.

Dikiyoba.

Edit: Quote for new page.

[ Wednesday, February 13, 2008 14:32: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]

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Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

Originally by Nalyd:

quote:
True, but the Shapers have been showing an increasingly moderate trend.
But the Shapers are only moderating because of the war. (Or, more accurately, because they risk losing the war.) Without the war, they'd be the same as ever. If they win the war before the moderation goes mainstream, they'll go back to the way they were.

Dikiyoba.

Edit: Quote for new page.

So true. The Shaper ending for G4 even states that once the Shapers win, they crack down harshly on society. The reforms during the seven years of war are ended, and to prevent another war they get even worse. For example, Serviles become brainwashed into not having any real thought, and just doing what they're told to. Before, this was seen as impractical due to the trade off in labor, but now the Shapers would do anything to crush the Rebellion.

If the Shapers win, their is even less hope of change than before. If the Rebels win, their is a chance that the Drakons can be overturned, and the idealistic Rebellion society lived out.

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Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
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If I am forced to choose between shapers or rebels I go with shapers all the way. At current the shapers have the right ideals of keeping shaping out of the hands of the common man. In fact if you think about it the main reason the shapers have to be so harsh is because people are jealous. Common people are jealous of the fact that shapers can create servants to do the work for them, and can create life. They don't realize the power though, and if they don't understand the power they will be more likely to misuse it. The reason the shapers have had to crack down on the availability of shaping is because of power nuts that would use the power to take over and rule as a tyrant.

Also for those of you who argue that the shaping techniques are inhumane, and that the shapers act inhumane by not helping villages.

Don't you think that a misshapen creature would be in agony the minute it was created? So why not kill it right away if it's in pain. For those of you who argue that making a creature in pain is inhumane, the creature itself probably doesn't gain a sense of being or pain until it is almost completely created and is not in the world long enough to suffer too much.

For those of you who think shapers think that not helping a village is inhumane, the Shapers need to consider what the effects of introducing a new species will do for the surrounding enviroment. Think about Drypeak in G2, with the wiry trees overgrowing everything. That could happen every time shapers introduce a new species, so what if they introduced a new grain that grew so plentiful and couldn't be contained that it overran open fields and forests, and eventually stripped the land of the nuitrients. And I personally think that if an area can't support mildly modified plants, then that area is probably not worth settling. Or at least not by getting food by farming.

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Posts: 454 | Registered: Monday, August 20 2007 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

That's all true, except ... except ...

The appealingly reasonable moderate Shapers are a nice coat of paint on the bars of a cage. The cage won't break without violence. How many centuries of slavery does it take to outweigh a year of war?

And the Drakons aren't? As of now you can't choose the human rebellions without choosing the Drakons.

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Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
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Nalyd's ideal outcome would be a rift between the moderate Shapers and the more severe and idealistic Shapers. While the Rebels focus on the more Shaper-like Shapers, the moderates leave both sides quietly alone, building their strength to crush the victor. There are several rather severe flaws, but the basic structure is what Nalyd would prefer.

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Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
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Look, no choice is a good choice. but rebals

Shapers
Problem: Really cruel and well racist
Solution: loseten thier laws so that at the very least intelligent creatures are free. I mean, to be fair, the shapers made there creatures to like serving them. It's only because of there CRUELTY that this civil war has started. As I recall they abandened there serviles on sucia iland

Rebals
Problem: To many canisters
Solution: Stop taking so many darn canisters I mean seriously, like the drakons, all the new lifecrafters are manifasting in canisterism :confused:

By the by, Arajag, Not all of the rebal leaders are insane. Greta and litalia aren't canister-mad like Jared or Burk. it's only the new generation of Drakons who are causing all those civilian deaths. I mean seriously, how many lifecrafters are there in the whole game. than look how many shapers are in the game
Posts: 39 | Registered: Monday, November 12 2007 08:00
Guardian
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And how many Drakons are in the game? They're obviously the dominant force of the Rebellion, and the strongest. The Rebels wouldn't stand a chance without the Drakons, but they sacrifice the lives of innocents to do so. Likewise with the canisters; the Rebellion doesn't stand a chance without them, they allow the almost spontaneous creation of Lifecrafters, to make up for the superior numbers and slower training times of the Shapers. They gain power and survival, but at the cost of their cause. Even Greta is willing to unleash the Unbound on Terrestria, more or less the equivalent of slaughtering them all and sowing the lands with salt.

Shaper cruelty? They are not nice, certainly, but their laws expressly forbid cruelty. You speak of the genocide? The Drayks could have become a threat, so they were killed, mostly humanely and with respect. Some were allowed to survive afterwards, like the Drayks encountered on Sucia Island, at least one of whom is quite accepting of their fate.

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Fear us, mortals, but never envy, for though we burn with power, our fuel is our sorrows.

Indeed, mortals, we envy you.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
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True, I admit that the canisters and the drakons are a must if the rebellion is to survive but isn't the chance, the slightest chance, to replace an empire of slavery of beings who CAN be intelligent and equal to the shapers and opression of the comman man with a nation of Democracy and equality to all races, human,drayk, and servile and hopefully gazers and, though i stretch this, drakons :mad: :mad: :mad:
After all, it takes great loss and stried to change the world
Posts: 39 | Registered: Monday, November 12 2007 08:00
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on a side not
Congradulations Igan9whatever guy. your first post and it's turning into a very heated topic
Congates :)
Posts: 39 | Registered: Monday, November 12 2007 08:00
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If everyone was equal, how would you decide who does menial labor? Or who governs? Or who is inferior? Complete equality is not a desirable thing; there must be levels and clear divisions. The Shapers, while not promoting civilian liberty, certainly aren't Orwellian in their oppression. Where did this idea of the Rebels being Democratic come from? They seem to be dictatorial or oligarchic. Great loss does not guarantee great change.

Would you like for every little being, every beast of burden and pest to be as intelligent as you? No. No you would not.

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Fear us, mortals, but never envy, for though we burn with power, our fuel is our sorrows.

Indeed, mortals, we envy you.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
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For one thing, no one really desides yous in what class
Yes we need a class syestem to function proprely as a society But who has the right to label someone for there race and "imobilive" them to advance in any form of improvement
Just because someone has alot of money(shaping) dosen't mean they suddenly rule the country(terristia and that other continaunt the shapers colinized)

For a seconed thing, I said and quate
"a nation of Democracy and equality to all races, human,drayk, and servile and hopefully gazers and, though i stretch this, drakons"
You see nothing about Battle Alphas and Wingbolts there
I meant only creatures with the ability to be Intelligent
Posts: 39 | Registered: Monday, November 12 2007 08:00
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As for "Where did this idea of the Rebels being Democratic come from?"
Is answered with
"We serviles will do anything for freedom,
Anything"
"Freedom" is pretty self-explanitory
Posts: 39 | Registered: Monday, November 12 2007 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #37
quote:
Originally written by Safey:

quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

The appealingly reasonable moderate Shapers are a nice coat of paint on the bars of a cage. The cage won't break without violence. How many centuries of slavery does it take to outweigh a year of war?
And the Drakons aren't? As of now you can't choose the human rebellions without choosing the Drakons.

Right. The Drakons are Shapers writ large, and they dominate the rebellion. The way that both things have happened gradually, over the course of three games, has convinced me that both things were all but inevitable. So it's not even a choice between cage and war. It's choose your cage, and we'll throw in a war for free.

It's all about the power. With the ability to create and control life, dropping moral constraints is a huge advantage because it lets you do more things. So the worst on either side will have more power; and so the best on either side will condone the worst, in order to retain enough power to have some chance of escaping the cage, or the war.

The moderate rebels and Shapers are in a classic prisoner's dilemma. If both at once were to reject their more vicious factional allies, there might be some chance at an optimal outcome for everyone. But if either one of the moderate sides rejects its own stronger but uglier allies, while the other group of moderates grits its teeth and stays in its traces, the war will quickly be won by the side that stayed united. The moderate group that stuck with its own bad guys will be able to keep pushing for moderation from within the victor's ranks, and the moderate group that broke ranks will face the worst of all possible worlds. So in accordance with classic min-max game theory, both groups of moderates are bound to stick to their guns, despite their misgivings, and the whole world slips inexorably downwards.

It seems as though there has to be some third option, even if all it really does is provide a sort of catalyst allowing the moderates on both sides to link up. On the other hand, it's far from clear that even the mildest Shapers and rebels are yet close enough to each other to link up. So, a plague on both their houses.

[ Thursday, February 14, 2008 07:18: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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Will one thing I noticed is the longer this war goes on the more of the original values both sides have to give. So theoretically if the war goes on long enough their idealogical could reverse.

Also to note the shapers have been loosening their laws for centuries, admittedly very slowly. When you go to the abandon fighting arena on Sucia Isle your character makes a comment that the shapers have long forbidden this barbaric practice. So I put forward the shapers would have grown more liberal as time progressed without the war. The war only speed up things.

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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Will one thing I noticed is the longer this war goes on the more of the original values both sides have to give. So theoretically if the war goes on long enough their idealogical could reverse.

Also to note the shapers have been loosening their laws for centuries, admittedly very slowly. When you go to the abandon fighting arena on Sucia Isle your character makes a comment that the shapers have long forbidden this barbaric practice. So I put forward the shapers would have grown more liberal as time progressed without the war. The war only speed up things.

The War's effects only go on as long as the war does. In the Shaper ending, they crack down immensely, and the creations are even worse off than before.

And I highly doubt the Rebels are going to continue launching wave after wave of Unbound if they win. The Drakons don't like being with the "inferior" sides of the Rebellion, meaning that the Serviles, Drakons, Drayks, and Humans would all form into different countries, with Humans and Serviles sticking together, and the Drayks having a few citizens in the Human/Servile Nation.

Of course, that's basically speculation.

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Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
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Freedom does not equal democracy at all- Anarchy is freedom, while democracy is domination by the majority.

The racial labeling practiced by the Shapers is justified in this case, because there are actual inherent differences between the races. Don't mistake this as human vs. human racism, where only superficial differences apply. The Serviles, while similar, are naturally more complacent, less intelligent, etc. The Rebel Serviles are usually almost analogous to humans, but those still under Shaper servitude are a different story.

The Drakons, while at least as intelligent as humans, are naturally more violent, capricious, greedy, etcetera. Gazers are a more alien mind, and receive too little face time for us to make accurate assessments.

While Nalyd would promote a harmony for all of the intelligent creations and humans(Arguably also intelligent creations, see The G1 Secret), there is little chance for one resulting from this war. If the Shapers win, it will be harsher Shaper rule. If the Rebels win, it will be harsher Drakon dictatorship.

Having Shaping and fighting those without Shaping more or less guarantees a victory.

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Fear us, mortals, but never envy, for though we burn with power, our fuel is our sorrows.

Indeed, mortals, we envy you.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Khai of Khem:

While Nalyd would promote a harmony for all of the intelligent creations and humans(Arguably also intelligent creations, see The G1 Secret), there is little chance for one resulting from this war. If the Shapers win, it will be harsher Shaper rule. If the Rebels win, it will be harsher Drakon dictatorship.
Yes, but if the Rebels win, there is still a chance that freedom can be won. The Drayks are unified in their hatred, and Gesselin Freehold has already shown this up front. Many Serviles, like those at Khima-Uss, are also disenfranchised with the Drakon oligarchy. The Humans resent being shut out of their own Rebellion so decisively. And when the Drakons extend themselves over everything, they will recieve resistance. Mighty lifecrafters have shown they can kill even mighty Drakons like Salassar. Without Servile mechanics doing vital work, the Drakons can't rapidly make Unbound. Rebellion within and without of the Grayghosts will have Northforge and Quessa-Uss fall, if not suffer staggering casualties. The Ashen Isles would suffer similar losses as well. From there, the Drakons will either be put in their place, be eradicated, or suffer a massive pyrhhic victory. Or, a new Salassar will rise and the Drakons will become isolationist, and form a northern nation free from the others.

So their is hope. With the Great Eastern Rebellion squashed, there isn't much at all.

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"I'm happy I'm the mentally disturbed person I am." -Nioca
"Yes, Iffy is a demon." -Iffy
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Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
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You forget, the Drakons are more or less focused in a particular area. If they were spread out, with other Rebels interspersed with them, the Rebelling Rebels might win. If the Unbound are created, all is more or less lost, as they apparently spread over most, if not all of the land outside of direct Drakon control.

Mighty Lifecrafters can kill Drakons, yes. But Drakons can also kill Lifecrafters. And the Drakons have the advantage of number by far, even if the canister-mad Lifecrafters don't side with them. The Human, Drayk, and Servile Rebellion doesn't stand a chance against or without the Drakons, plain and simple.

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Fear us, mortals, but never envy, for though we burn with power, our fuel is our sorrows.

Indeed, mortals, we envy you.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Goldenking:

quote:
Originally written by Safey:

Will one thing I noticed is the longer this war goes on the more of the original values both sides have to give. So theoretically if the war goes on long enough their idealogical could reverse.

Also to note the shapers have been loosening their laws for centuries, admittedly very slowly. When you go to the abandon fighting arena on Sucia Isle your character makes a comment that the shapers have long forbidden this barbaric practice. So I put forward the shapers would have grown more liberal as time progressed without the war. The war only speed up things.

The War's effects only go on as long as the war does. In the Shaper ending, they crack down immensely, and the creations are even worse off than before.

And I highly doubt the Rebels are going to continue launching wave after wave of Unbound if they win. The Drakons don't like being with the "inferior" sides of the Rebellion, meaning that the Serviles, Drakons, Drayks, and Humans would all form into different countries, with Humans and Serviles sticking together, and the Drayks having a few citizens in the Human/Servile Nation.

Of course, that's basically speculation.

Did we stop making nukes after WW2? The shapers getting more liberal is a several century trend the ending of the war is simply a set back. If the war goes on long enough then the conservative shapers won't have the might to make things harsher. This why I can understand the trakovites have a temporary victory. This war increases the powers of the moderate shapers while decreaseing the power of the moderate rebels.

[ Thursday, February 14, 2008 16:24: Message edited by: Safey ]

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Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Khai of Khem:

You forget, the Drakons are more or less focused in a particular area. If they were spread out, with other Rebels interspersed with them, the Rebelling Rebels might win. If the Unbound are created, all is more or less lost, as they apparently spread over most, if not all of the land outside of direct Drakon control.

Mighty Lifecrafters can kill Drakons, yes. But Drakons can also kill Lifecrafters. And the Drakons have the advantage of number by far, even if the canister-mad Lifecrafters don't side with them. The Human, Drayk, and Servile Rebellion doesn't stand a chance against or without the Drakons, plain and simple.

I believe that the Drakons took the Unbound to the Western Morass, and said: "Go West". West being to the ends of Terrestia, possibly the other continent if they're something of a Asia-Africa connection, pre-Suez. Anyways, the Unbound are going far away, and not coming back. Most likely fighting until the last one dies. Meanwhile, the Drakons are weakened without a new generation of Unbound to make. Rebels from all over, and I suppose Trakovites and a few Shapers, would be able to attack the Drakons. Also, according to some Drakon or another, the humans would be brought into the Grayghosts for protection. So there you go.

Quessa-Uss and Northforge have the highest Drakon concentration, and they're both isolated. Rebellion in Khima-Uss and Gesselin Freehold would be vital. I think, if rapid enough, Khima-Uss could kill the handful of Drakons in their midst, and divide the Grayghosts. Gesselin Freehold and Frostwood could effectively isolate Northforge, where wave after wave of creations, Rotghroths and the like, could be sent to kill the Drakons. Quessa-Uss could be similarily taken.

Anyways, there is a chance that the Drakons can be destroyed. Not really sure about the Ashen Isles though.

EDIT:
quote:
Did we stop making nukes after WW2? The shapers getting more liberal is a several century trend the ending of the war is simply a set back. If the war goes on long enough then the conservative shapers won't have the might to make things harsher. This why I can understand the trakovites have a temporary victory. This war increases the powers of the moderate shapers while decreaseing the power of the moderate rebels.
What does making nukes after WWII have to do with anything?

Yes. A several century trend, very slowly as they felt their subjects could be trusted. Besides, it states explicitely in the Shaper text that the Shapers crack down harshly on their creations. You can even see it in game, where the Shapers start using brainwashed Serviles, far less intelligent than any of the other Serviles in any of the other games. If you go with the Shaper ending, the Great Eastern Rebellion basically ends, and the Ashen Isles are left as a temporary freehold. So, the Shapers winning at this point might as well just be setting back the trend quite a bit.

[ Thursday, February 14, 2008 17:02: Message edited by: Goldenking ]

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The areas of Drakon concentration are fortresses, Goldy, and while a siege might starve them out, the Drakons definitely have a man-to-man advantage. They are equal or only slightly less in numbers than the other Rebels, and they can Shape as well. There are a few mighty beings on the Eastern Rebels' side that can kill Drakons, but the average foot soldier doesn't stand a chance. And the average foot soldier for the Drakons is a Drakon. Or at least another high-level creation, a War Trall or Rotghroth.

Repeated barrages of creations won't work, as Drakons can Shape as well, and all that would be accomplished would be a repeat of the Fens, with nothing but creations dying until either side makes a move.

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Fear us, mortals, but never envy, for though we burn with power, our fuel is our sorrows.

Indeed, mortals, we envy you.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Goldenking:

quote:
Did we stop making nukes after WW2? The shapers getting more liberal is a several century trend the ending of the war is simply a set back. If the war goes on long enough then the conservative shapers won't have the might to make things harsher. This why I can understand the trakovites have a temporary victory. This war increases the powers of the moderate shapers while decreaseing the power of the moderate rebels.
What does making nukes after WWII have to do with anything?

The point is you have no proof that the Drakons will stop makeing unbound after the war is over. They will mostly likely keep them around to enforce their own rule.

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Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Safey:

[QUOTE]The point is you have no proof that the Drakons will stop makeing unbound after the war is over. They will mostly likely keep them around to enforce their own rule.
Are you daft? The Unbound are incredibly powerful, and only the creme de la creme of the Drakons can control them, people like Ghaldring and Akhari Blaze. Having a huge army of Unbound just waiting for someone to slip up would be death waiting to happen, and require their strongest leaders to devote all of their time to restraining them. Making the Unbound also requires a lot of time and resources on behalf of the Drakons. It simply isn't feasible unless on the brink of destruction.

quote:
Originally written by Khai of Khem:

The areas of Drakon concentration are fortresses, Goldy, and while a siege might starve them out, the Drakons definitely have a man-to-man advantage. They are equal or only slightly less in numbers than the other Rebels, and they can Shape as well. There are a few mighty beings on the Eastern Rebels' side that can kill Drakons, but the average foot soldier doesn't stand a chance. And the average foot soldier for the Drakons is a Drakon. Or at least another high-level creation, a War Trall or Rotghroth.

Repeated barrages of creations won't work, as Drakons can Shape as well, and all that would be accomplished would be a repeat of the Fens, with nothing but creations dying until either side makes a move.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that they aren't equal to the humans, drayks, and serviles in number. But you're right, they are focused in fortresses, and the average soldier is much stronger. Besides, if brutal rebellion doesn't tickle your fancy, the others can just starve out the Drakons. From my experience, they have the farming skills of a toad. Same goes with the Unbound; without Serviles working the machine, you don't have any Unbound.

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"I'm happy I'm the mentally disturbed person I am." -Nioca
"Yes, Iffy is a demon." -Iffy
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Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Goldenking:

quote:
Originally written by Safey:

[QUOTE]The point is you have no proof that the Drakons will stop makeing unbound after the war is over. They will mostly likely keep them around to enforce their own rule.
Are you daft? The Unbound are incredibly powerful, and only the creme de la creme of the Drakons can control them, people like Ghaldring and Akhari Blaze. Having a huge army of Unbound just waiting for someone to slip up would be death waiting to happen, and require their strongest leaders to devote all of their time to restraining them. Making the Unbound also requires a lot of time and resources on behalf of the Drakons. It simply isn't feasible unless on the brink of destruction.

Both of you are only partially right. As evidenced by the following conversation, the Drakons do plan to use modified Unbound after the war.
quote:
Player - "The Unbound are hard to control?"
Warmaster Karikiss - "They have a ... a tendency to attack. Anything nearby. Thisss makesss them dangerousss. Once the Shapersss are gone and western Terrestia hasss been leveled, we will absorb the Unbound and then modify them to make them more sensible."
quote:
without Serviles working the machine, you don't have any Unbound.
Fortunately for the Drakons, they can always shape some more. Thus, that isn't really a problem for them.

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Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
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quote:
This debate has reset itself due to a influx of new debaters
Yeah.

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