What is better Shapers or Rebels?

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AuthorTopic: What is better Shapers or Rebels?
Amyth
Shaper
Member # 7472
 written Wednesday, March 5 2008 16:38 Profile Homepage #125
No one likes a mini-mod, Olop. Just for future reference.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Friday, March 7 2008 23:16 Profile #126
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources, not people.
Well aren't you naive. Pray tell, how does an attacker destroy infrastructure without causing civilian casualties? I'm sure Israel and the U.S.A would love to hear about your revolutionary war tactics.

[ Friday, March 07, 2008 23:19: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Friday, March 7 2008 23:51 Profile #127
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

[quote=Lepus timidus]
[qb]So you admit that the Outsider loyalists (apart from the two year olds, the little dears) have free will, and know that their actions assist in the continuation of an era of oppression and genocide. Nice to know that you're willing to concede that point.
No, I'm not. You're under this wonderful fantasy that the Outsiders can do whatever they darn well please, and that if they rebel, they get a nice shiny medal and moral satisfaction.
[/quote]No, just no. I've said no such thing. There is an inherent danger in opposing any tyrannical regime, but as the old saying goes, ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’

quote:

And here's another thing: most outsiders don't see the darker side of the Shapers.
I disagree. The Outsiders have lived alongside the Shapers for centuries, and I think that they must have at least some inkling of the cruelty of Shaper experiments (guards in research labs), that serviles are capable of independent thought (the servile keeper in Drypeak disposing of Sencia), and of the genocide of the drayks (Outsiders serve in the Shaper armies).

quote:

Now look through the eyes of the same outsider, and look at the destruction the Rebels are causing. Except, from an outsider's eye, they don't look like Rebels; they look like power-hungry terrorists who's sole purpose in life is to destroy and pillage anything in their way.
Or perhaps it looks like a bunch of independent serviles who... wait... didn't the Shapers tell us that the serviles were dumb placid beings who loved to serve?

That would be my first thought, if I were an Outsider, which is why I find it completely implausible that Outsider believe, and continue to believe, that serviles are dumb creatures happy to serve. Are they as gullible as the citizens of Oceania for 1984?

quote:

Genocide against the Shapers being justified? No. It doesn't even need a reason, the mere idea of the question speaks for itself.
It's not genocide to kill your enemies. If the Shapers were willing to surrender, (or offer a truce/compromise), there would be no justification to slaughter them. But we both know that the Shapers will never concede defeat, or even compromise, with the Rebels wishing for autonomy. So unfortunately, the Shapers must die.

The fact of the matter is that the Shapers adhere rigidly to a dogma which encourages them to snuff out any independent Creation life. So until the Shaper faction either changes their ideology or surrenders, said Creation life is entitled to fight back against any Shaper which wishes to destroy them (which, as it currently stands, is 99% of them).

quote:
It's funny you should drag that up (again), but I seem to recall that the Nazi regime was also the government of many of the Jews who were killed. Tell me, did the Jews get the government they deserved as well?
The Jews were a minority at the time, so I would consider than far less culpable than non-Jewish Germans. And from memory, the Jews did 'declare war' on Germany via boycotts.

quote:

Anyway, you're assuming that everyone who opposed the rebels, directly or indirectly, is equally guilty.
I never said this! What I asserted was that such a distinction is incidental. The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, the Outsiders are enemies of the Rebellion. Hence there is no reason why the Rebels should bend over backwards to spare them when they employ scorched earth tactics.

Even if the Outsiders are 'enemies out of ignorance' (as Dikiyobi keeps stressing, something which I doubt), they are still enemies. If a man runs at you with a knife, you don't hesistate to defend yourself merely because he might be mentally unstable.

quote:

And it's just coincidence that each and every one of the targets are either Shapers or closely tied to the Shapers?
Congratulations, your powers of deduction amaze me. You're quite right when you speculate that it's probably not a coincidence when the Rebels target a sect which wishes to exterminate and enslave them.

For clarification, an analogy. An alien race known as the Gorg invade Earth, believing that humans are an inferior species, deserving only vapourisation. The human retaliate to this invasion with brute force, first defeating the Gorg infantry on Earth, and then boarding the Gorg starships and butchering a crew who fights to the death.

Would you class the above as genocide? Apparently so, given that the humans were targeting the Gorg for extermination.

quote:

So, after further consideration, I have a question. You act as if it was such a glaringly obvious decision to support the Rebels. So why, in every poll made after GF4, does the majority of voters support the Shapers over the Rebels?
For the same reason that democracy doesn't work: People are stupid.

[ Saturday, March 08, 2008 04:22: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Amyth
Shaper
Member # 7472
 written Saturday, March 8 2008 11:49 Profile Homepage #128
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

You're under this wonderful fantasy that the Outsiders can do whatever they darn well please, and that if they rebel, they get a nice shiny medal and moral satisfaction.
No, just no. I've said no such thing. There is an inherent danger in opposing any tyrannical regime, but as the old saying goes, ‘All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing’
Yeah, but I also believe that the average person shouldn't feel morally obligated to get themselves killed for naught, either. Even if every outsider simultaneously rose up and attacked the Shapers, I doubt they'd do more than put a dent in Shaper forces. They're just too heavily out-gunned. And I'm not talking Nazis vs. Jews outgunned, I mean Japan vs. the atom bomb. And in that confrontation, if you recall, the atom bomb won.

quote:
quote:

And here's another thing: most outsiders don't see the darker side of the Shapers.
I disagree. The Outsiders have lived alongside the Shapers for centuries, and I think that they must have at least some inkling of the cruelty of Shaper experiments (guards in research labs), that serviles are capable of independent thought (the servile keeper in Drypeak disposing of Sencia), and of the genocide of the drayks (Outsiders serve in the Shaper armies).
Yeah, but these incidents are in the minority. The Shapers have proven that, if anything, they're especially apt at covering their tracks and conjuring a very convincing illusion of something they're not. GF3 is a particularly strong example; even amongst the typical Shaper, the idea of smart, independent serviles is nothing more than a rumor. The Geneforge was completely covered up and concealed, and if it wasn't for the Sholai, it probably would have remained that way. Now, if the Shapers are so skilled in covering their tracks that they can conceal information from themselves, what does that tell you about the chances the Outsiders have of stumbling on useful information?

Additionally, when the Shapers deem that something (like Drayks) must be exterminated, it's typically someone from the Shaper sect that's sent to deal with it. Litalia is one such example.

quote:
quote:

Now look through the eyes of the same outsider, and look at the destruction the Rebels are causing. Except, from an outsider's eye, they don't look like Rebels; they look like power-hungry terrorists who's sole purpose in life is to destroy and pillage anything in their way.
Or perhaps it looks like a bunch of independent serviles who... wait... didn't the Shapers tell us that the serviles were dumb placid beings who loved to serve?

That would be my first thought, if I were an Outsider, which is why I find it completely implausible that Outsider believe, and continue to believe, that serviles are dumb creatures happy to serve. Are they as gullible as the citizens of Oceania for 1984?
Are you actually insinuating that all serviles are smart creatures who desire freedom? Because there's a load of in-game evidence that states otherwise.

Anyway, it would look more like the Drakon and human sides of the rebellion are ordering them around. After all, how many independent serviles have you seen on the frontline that have not been accompanied by humans or Drakons? Not many.

quote:
quote:

Genocide against the Shapers being justified? No. It doesn't even need a reason, the mere idea of the question speaks for itself.
It's not genocide to kill your enemies. If the Shapers were willing to surrender, (or offer a truce/compromise), there would be no justification to slaughter them. But we both know that the Shapers will never concede defeat, or even compromise, with the Rebels wishing for autonomy. So unfortunately, the Shapers must die.
We both know? Really? That's funny, because there is no possible way for anyone (aside from Vogel) to know that. Different situations can result in different stances. But of course, the Rebels are currently more interested in inflicting as much damage as possible than even giving negotiation a shot, so I guess it really wouldn't matter anyway. I mean, even the Shapers are more willing to negotiate than the Rebels (not by a wide margin, considering it's more on an individual basis, but still). So, quite frankly, it's still genocide

quote:
quote:

Anyway, you're assuming that everyone who opposed the rebels, directly or indirectly, is equally guilty.
I never said this! What I asserted was that such a distinction is incidental. The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, the Outsiders are enemies of the Rebellion. Hence there is no reason why the Rebels should bend over backwards to spare them when they employ scorched earth tactics.
I agree that some people will get caught in the crossfire. It's pretty much unavoidable, and is effectively why war should be something of last resort.

However, the methods you propose and support take it one step further. Rather than accidentally killing civilians, these methods dictate that one should go out of their way to kill civilians.

quote:
Even if the Outsiders are 'enemies out of ignorance' (as Dikiyobi keeps stressing, something which I doubt), they are still enemies. If a man runs at you with a knife, you don't hesistate to defend yourself merely because he might be mentally unstable.
Fair enough, but you don't then turn around and attack nearby bystanders too.

quote:
quote:

And it's just coincidence that each and every one of the targets are either Shapers or closely tied to the Shapers?
Congratulations, your powers of deduction amaze me. You're quite right when you speculate that it's probably not a coincidence when the Rebels target a sect which wishes to exterminate and enslave them.

For clarification, an analogy. An alien race known as the Gorg invade Earth, believing that humans are an inferior species, deserving only vapourisation. The human retaliate to this invasion with brute force, first defeating the Gorg infantry on Earth, and then boarding the Gorg starships and butchering a crew who fights to the death.

Would you class the above as genocide? Apparently so, given that the humans were targeting the Gorg for extermination.
You see, there's a vital flaw in your little example here. The humans weren't targeting them because they're alien; they're targeting them because they pose an immediate threat. But the Rebels, along with your methods, are making very little discrimination between who's a threat and who's just a person in the wrong place at the wrong time. So while the example isn't Genocide, the rebel actions are.

Nice try, though.

quote:
quote:

So, after further consideration, I have a question. You act as if it was such a glaringly obvious decision to support the Rebels. So why, in every poll made after GF4, does the majority of voters support the Shapers over the Rebels?
For the same reason that democracy doesn't work: People are stupid.
You sure about that? Or could it be that, with the advent of GF4, people started seeing a side of the Rebels that they didn't like?

quote:
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources, not people.
Well aren't you naive. Pray tell, how does an attacker destroy infrastructure without causing civilian casualties? I'm sure Israel and the U.S.A would love to hear about your revolutionary war tactics.
Perhaps I could have stated that a little better. Let's try again, shall we?
quote:
There's a difference between scorched earth and your policy, Lepus. Scorched earth destroys infrastructure and resources. It doesn't involve chasing down every single person who might possibly support the opposing side (which effectively includes everyone in your path) and ruthlessly murdering them in cold blood.
Ah. Much better.

AMEND: To all those with the patience to follow this debate, I direct your attention to this thread, and implore you to vote. Thank you.

[ Saturday, March 08, 2008 12:37: Message edited by: Nioca ]
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Saturday, March 8 2008 14:22 Profile #129
Nioca:

quote:

lepus:
For clarification, an analogy. An alien race known as the Gorg invade Earth, believing that humans are an inferior species, deserving only vapourisation. The human retaliate to this invasion with brute force, first defeating the Gorg infantry on Earth, and then boarding the Gorg starships and butchering a crew who fights to the death.

Would you class the above as genocide? Apparently so, given that the humans were targeting the Gorg for extermination.[/qb]
quote:

You see, there's a vital flaw in your little example here. The humans weren't targeting them because they're alien; they're targeting them because they pose an immediate threat.
Ahh, but the very fact that they come from an alien society is relevant, because said alien society sees humans as disposable inferior beings, deserving only to be crushed.

How are the Shapers in Geneforge any different from the Gorg in my hypothetical scenario, exactly?

The Gorg believe that humans are an inferior species. The Shapers believe that Creations are an inferior species. Check!

The Gorg believe that humans only deserve extermination. The Shapers believe that independent Creations deserve extermination. Check!

The humans respond by massacring the Gorg. The Rebels respond by massacring the Shapers. Check!

The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide?

And just to expand the analogy further, the humans learn that there are human food slaves on the Gorg homeworld, and that the Gorg are planning to attack again, because they will never allow independent humans to exist.

Do you:

A: Firebomb the crap out of them.

or...

B: Sit on your hands, because a pre-emptive strike might be considered 'genocide' by the U.N? :rolleyes:

I'd mention the Nazis, but obviously you're tired of that (very apt) comparison. I just think it's rather contradictory of you to claim that my Gorg scenario isn't an example of genocide, whereas the Rebels vs. Shapers scenario is.

To be brutally honest, I wonder if their is a little bit of speciesm going on here. Perhaps posters would be more supportive of Rebel tactics if said Rebels were all humans. But instead, the Rebels who have the cahones to beat the crap out of people are actually 30 foot high firebreathing reptiles.

[ Saturday, March 08, 2008 14:25: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Dikiyoba
Councilor
Member # 6600
 written Saturday, March 8 2008 15:05 Profile Homepage #130
There is a significant difference between the two scenarios. The attacking Gorgs are apparently all soldiers, while the Outsiders are not. Now, if the Gorg crew contained non-combatants and the humans deliberately targeted them along with the soldiers, or even just made no effort to spare them, then we have the same situation in both scenarios.

Dikiyoba.

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Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded • Episode 5: Spiderweb Resistance
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Executor Xel'Raga
Shock Trooper
Member # 9906
 written Saturday, March 8 2008 15:11 Profile Homepage #131
LT: IMAGE(http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-aaa.gif) IMAGE(http://sa.tweek.us/emots/images/emot-bang.gif)
How can you write those shameless lies!?

[ Saturday, March 08, 2008 15:15: Message edited by: Xel'Raga ]

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For Auir! -Tassadar
I will rule this sector or see it burnt around me! -Arcturus Mengsk
Ghaal Korra!
No matter what name I have, people can call me Xel
Pylons!
Posts: 301 | Registered: Tuesday, August 21 2007 07:00
Amyth
Shaper
Member # 7472
 written Saturday, March 8 2008 15:20 Profile Homepage #132
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide?
No, the humans target the Gorg because they're an immediate threat. Additionally, what's attacking is their main attack force. Tell me, are the outsider humans in Geneforge either an attack force or an immediate threat? No. And that's where the analogy falls short. The humans in the analogy are effectively fighting against an enemy, while the rebels are simply slaughtering everything that crosses their path or happens to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Maybe if they had actually focussed the fighting on the shapers, they would never have had to worry about releasing the unbound.

quote:
And just to expand the analogy further, the humans learn that there are human food slaves on the Gorg homeworld, and that the Gorg are planning to attack again, because they will never allow independent humans to exist.

Do you:

A: Firebomb the crap out of them.

or...

B: Sit on your hands, because a pre-emptive strike might be considered 'genocide' by the U.N? :rolleyes:
How 'bout C: Launch an attack that cripples their army and/or economy and/or government, without blowing their entire population into tiny little bits.

It's disturbing to note how your answers for everything tend to lean toward a mantra of 'blow everything up'.

quote:
I just think it's rather contradictory of you to claim that my Gorg scenario isn't an example of genocide, whereas the Rebels vs. Shapers scenario is.
When a rational, open-minded person looks at it, they can see how it really isn't contradictory.

quote:
To be brutally honest, I wonder if their is a little bit of speciesm going on here. Perhaps posters would be more supportive of Rebel tactics if said Rebels were all humans. But instead, the Rebels who have the cahones to beat the crap out of people are actually 30 foot high firebreathing reptiles.
I think the term generationist might be better fitting. I, personally, have nothing against Drakons as a whole; just the most recent generation. And since they're just becoming the next generation of Shapers, it's not really a wonder why. I'd rather have the current regime of Shapers in place then a new regime that'll be even harder to throw off.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Nikki.
Shaper
Member # 3442
 written Sunday, March 9 2008 03:29 Profile Homepage #133
Ultimately, I am better. Until I come along, the Shapers and Rebels are in a stalemate. Look at the whole Shaper Monarch episode for an example. Then, I come along, and the problem gets fixed.

No matter which side I choose, I can always beat the other. The world should bow to me.

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Nikki's Nook - forget about your house of cards, and I'll deal mine.
Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Ale193
Apprentice
Member # 15228
 written Sunday, March 9 2008 12:54 Profile #134
While I haven't yet played the full version of the last 2 games, it seems that both sides are rapidly and irreversibly degrading into blodthirsty savages.

SHAPERS: they're arrogant, cruel, and generally resemblant of modern day politicians. they have obviously been in power for too long, but have some moral restraint. they have basically lost sight of the R& 2 E's that separate good from greed, they have lost touch with the people, while they are right to keep shaping under control, they have lost touch with the people; and only know how to rule through repression and try to destroy threats rathe than appease them. they are not beyond redemption, but their leaders have become largely power mad.

REBELS: they started out as good guys, but seem to be locked in a downward spiral that will make them worse than the people they seek to overthrow. their biggest problems are:
1. the inherent decaying of sanity and morals caused by shaping and war.
2. they have lost sight of their goals, where as they once sought to reform, now they just want to destroy.
3. they are killing off the people they want to liberate, they have dissociated themselves from the people even more than the shapers. there's no point in winning if there's nothing left when you're done. What authority has a king with no subjects who rules over a few acres of barren radioactive rock?

Outsiders: the average human. humans as a rule are stupid and too clever for our own good at the same time. they are a product of society and ignorance, if you grow up with something it takes a lot to convince you otherwise. stop with the WWII analogies, and let me use the civil war example. the south thought what they were doing was right because there was no proof otherwise. when in doubt people just go with the flow. free will is nothing if you don't see a decision. I don't know about you, but if a bunch of scary fire breathing lizzards came and started killing everything I would asume they were the bad guys and run to the nearest shaper. what most of you seem to ignore is that there is no black and white answer, just a thouroly headache inducing sea of grey.

Basically, we'd be better off if the world was ruled by ornks :(

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To speak the truth one must first see it through both eyes.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, March 9 2008 08:00
Dikiyoba
Councilor
Member # 6600
 written Sunday, March 9 2008 13:43 Profile Homepage #135
And you chose this thread of all places to make your first post? Dikiyoba welcomes you to the board!

[ Sunday, March 09, 2008 13:45: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ]

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Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded • Episode 5: Spiderweb Resistance
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Azarr
Apprentice
Member # 10435
 written Sunday, March 9 2008 14:31 Profile #136
Ale193
Please, try not to think good and evil, black and white. It's pretty much a grey zone, IMO.
Which is one of the things I like about this series.
Posts: 21 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Sunday, March 9 2008 18:24 Profile #137
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

[quote=Lepus timidus]
[qb]The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide?
No, the humans target the Gorg because they're an immediate threat.
[/quote]So you're conceding the point that simply because one appears to be targeting a race, does not mean that one is committing genocide. Excellent!

quote:

Additionally, what's attacking is their main attack force.
Nonsense. The troops on the starships aren't attacking... the ones on the ground are! So apparently, you're willing to tolerate those motherships full of troops hostile to human existence in the Earth's stratosphere. And it was genocide for the humans to force their way onto the ships and slaughter them.

quote:

Tell me, are the outsider humans in Geneforge either an attack force or an immediate threat?
Let's stick with the Shapers, atm.

Are the Shapers an immediate threat? No, not all are, any more than the Gorg on those starships are 'immediate threats', nor the anti-human Gorg soldiers in training back on their homeworld.

Have the Shapers declared a war of extermination against all independent Creations, much as the Gorg have against the humans?
Yes, they have. Simply because not every Shaper is at Quess-Uss's doorstep with a Discipline Wand in hand does not change the simple fact that they are sworn enemies of the Rebellion. If a people declare that their aim is to exterminate you (and are more than willing to carry it out, see the genocide of the Drayks, the extermination of the Awakened in GF 1 and GF 2), you are more than justified in engaging in a 'pre-emptive' strike out of self-defense. Hit them before they hit you, parry dodge and spin, wot wot.

quote:

No. And that's where the analogy falls short. The humans in the analogy are effectively fighting against an enemy
Wait! Didn't you previously assert that they were only fighting against an immediate threat? Immediate threat is NOT synonymous with enemy.

quote:

, while the rebels are simply slaughtering everything that crosses their path
No, the Rebels are killing their enemies. Or, if you don't consider the Outsiders their enemies: The Rebels are killing their enemies, while inflicting a lot of collateral damage. Reminds ya of the good ole United States of America, hey?

quote:

Maybe if they had actually focussed the fighting on the shapers, they would never have had to worry about releasing the unbound.

They did, but:

1. You (and numerous posters) are still willing to label even that genocide. Apparently your enemy needs to have a Discipline Wand pointed against your temple before you're morally justified in striking back.

2. They lost, so now they need to resort to more desperate measures.

quote:

quote:
And just to expand the analogy further, the humans learn that there are human food slaves on the Gorg homeworld, and that the Gorg are planning to attack again, because they will never allow independent humans to exist.

Do you:

A: Firebomb the crap out of them.

or...

B: Sit on your hands, because a pre-emptive strike might be considered 'genocide' by the U.N? :rolleyes:
How 'bout C: Launch an attack that cripples their army and/or economy and/or government, without blowing their entire population into tiny little bits.
Ahh, I see. So you choose A: Firebomb the crap out of them. Because the best way to cripple the economy is with a good ole fashioned firebombing (or nuking).

quote:

It's disturbing to note how your answers for everything tend to lean toward a mantra of 'blow everything up'.
Nonsense. I'd rather try the more conservative methods of dispute resolution first (compromise, pinpoint military strikes, etc.), but if they don't work, then it's time for the gloves to come off.

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Safey
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
 written Sunday, March 9 2008 20:02 Profile #138
The reason why I believe the drakons are doing this more out of vengeance then a scorch earth policy. A scorch earth policy is something you do in lands you can't hold for long. If your going to be in area for a while your going to want to make some attempt to preserve resources. The drakons completely leveled Dhonal Keep and the surrounding town. Why? That is in territory that remains in rebel control even if you take the most pro shaper ending possible. Why not take the fort and make it your own? No they did it out of vengeance. Same thing for Poryhphra, that another city that comes firmly under rebel control but they still have some strange urge to level it completely.

Lets apply this to your humans combating the alien menace. I defeat the aliens and destroy most of their ships and even manage to capture one their ships. Out of vengeance I destroy the ship instead of try to reverse engineer it.

Now you can make justifications for the Drakons creations of the unbound and their whole sale destruction of both shaper and outside, but my point is that the Drakons have razed cities too the ground when they didn't have too(when they where wining). I'll even argue that the two examples I gave you it would have been advantageous for them not too. Also Greta made commit to the effect that large number of drayks and drakons where sitting around doing nothing while a war was going on.

Edit:
I put forward that after the rebellion started to lose the war they effectively abandon the human/servile, so the could blame for failure would be shifted away from them. So instead they decided to make the unbound which they think will win the war. They get to claim all the credit, with out all the effort of having large armies on the borders fight grueling campaigns like the human counterparts, and set themselves up as the rulers. I argue if they given more support to human half instead of their own wretched scheming (against their own allies no less) they wouldn't have need the unbound.

[ Sunday, March 09, 2008 20:25: Message edited by: Safey ]

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Amyth
Shaper
Member # 7472
 written Sunday, March 9 2008 20:07 Profile Homepage #139
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

[b]
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

[quote=Lepus timidus]
[qb]The simple fact of the matter is that the humans target the Gorg for extermination because the Gorg first wished to exterminate the humans. Is this genocide?
No, the humans target the Gorg because they're an immediate threat.
So you're conceding the point that simply because one appears to be targeting a race, does not mean that one is committing genocide. Excellent![/b][/quote]But it is if they actually are targeting that race.

quote:
quote:

Additionally, what's attacking is their main attack force.
Nonsense. The troops on the starships aren't attacking... the ones on the ground are! So apparently, you're willing to tolerate those motherships full of troops hostile to human existence in the Earth's stratosphere. And it was genocide for the humans to force their way onto the ships and slaughter them.
Nope. You see, the troops on the starships are part of the invading forces. Thus making them an immediate threat.

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Tell me, are the outsider humans in Geneforge either an attack force or an immediate threat?
Let's stick with the Shapers, atm.
Read as: I'm never going to admit that I might possibly be wrong, and thus will steer the debate away from those dangerous waters.

quote:
Have the Shapers declared a war of extermination against all independent Creations, much as the Gorg have against the humans?
Yes, they have. Simply because not every Shaper is at Quess-Uss's doorstep with a Discipline Wand in hand does not change the simple fact that they are sworn enemies of the Rebellion. If a people declare that their aim is to exterminate you (and are more than willing to carry it out, see the genocide of the Drayks, the extermination of the Awakened in GF 1 and GF 2), you are more than justified in engaging in a 'pre-emptive' strike out of self-defense. Hit them before they hit you, parry dodge and spin, wot wot.
Fine, but that's still no justification for genocide. The Rebels didn't even grant the chance for Shapers to surrender. Whether or not they would have is moot, all the more so because the global mindset of the sect does not represent the individual; the fact that they killed them simply because they're Shapers is genocide.

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No. And that's where the analogy falls short. The humans in the analogy are effectively fighting against an enemy
Wait! Didn't you previously assert that they were only fighting against an immediate threat? Immediate threat is NOT synonymous with enemy.
Don't be an idiot, you know what I mean.

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quote:

, while the rebels are simply slaughtering everything that crosses their path
No, the Rebels are killing their enemies. Or, if you don't consider the Outsiders their enemies: The Rebels are killing their enemies, while inflicting a lot of collateral damage. Reminds ya of the good ole United States of America, hey?
A lot of unnecessary collateral damage that could be avoided rather easily. Yet it isn't. So, if anything, that makes the Rebels guilty of numerous counts of negligent homicide.

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quote:
[b]How 'bout C: Launch an attack that cripples their army and/or economy and/or government, without blowing their entire population into tiny little bits.
Ahh, I see. So you choose A: Firebomb the crap out of them. Because the best way to cripple the economy is with a good ole fashioned firebombing (or nuking).[/b]
True, but I didn't choose A, now did I? I choose a path that got the job done without becoming a complete monster myself.

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It's disturbing to note how your answers for everything tend to lean toward a mantra of 'blow everything up'.
Nonsense. I'd rather try the more conservative methods of dispute resolution first (compromise, pinpoint military strikes, etc.), but if they don't work, then it's time for the gloves to come off.
Really? Because most of this debate, you haven't advocated any sort of diplomacy or such. Just blow everything up in this grand pre-emptive genocidal strike.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Sunday, March 9 2008 22:45 Profile #140
Nioca:

quote:

Read as: I'm never going to admit that I might possibly be wrong, and thus will steer the debate away from those dangerous waters.
Read as: I'm rather busy atm, so I wish to prioritise what we discuss.

quote:

Fine, but that's still no justification for genocide. The Rebels didn't even grant the chance for Shapers to surrender.
In the GF3 Rebel Ending (and the Taker ending), your PC is sent as a diplomat to the Shapers to tell them of the invasion. Naturally, the Shaper Council in Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender.

quote:

Whether or not they would have is moot,
No, it's not moot. Shapers have been conditioned not to 'bow' to their Creations, hence there was no point of offering the Shapers a chance to surrender PRIOR to the invasion, because:

1. It would have been laughed at (witness GF2 Taker/Awakened ending).

2. The Rebels would have lost the element of surprise, which apart from the Geneforge, was the only advantage they have over the Shapers.

3. The diplomats would almost certainly have been killed (witness rebel endings to GF 1, GF 2, GF 3)

But I do agree that once the invasion has been launched and the Rebels have some leverage, Shapers should be offered a chance to surrender and recant their anti-Creation ideology. And they were. None of them took it.

quote:

all the more so because the global mindset of the sect does not represent the individual;
I'm going to disagree with you, here. An individual wouldn't be a member of the Shaper sect unless they believed in the inferiority of their Creations, and their right to snuff out independent Creation life. In fact, having such an attitude is a prequisite for being allowed to progress in their sect. You might as well argue that being a fullly member of the KKK does not necessarily mean that you are racist (I thought I'd give you a break from the Nazi analogies :D ).

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the fact that they killed them simply because they're Shapers is genocide.
No, it's called a pre-emptive strike. If the KKK declare a race war, the racial minorities will probably be targeting anyone wearing a white hood and chanting white supremacy slogans. I'd hardly call that genocide. In fact, I'd call it common sense.

The problem is that individuals such as yourself and Diki think that the Shapers can be reasoned with by independent creations, when it's shown time and time again that Shapers will do nothing of the sort (unless it's a turncoat rebel). Just off the top of my head:

1. In the GF 1 loyalist ending, the Awakened are exterminated by the Shapers.

2. In the GF 2 loyalist ending, Medab is raised to the ground and the inhabitants enslaved. The Drakons in Zhass-Uss are destroyed.

3. In the GF 2 Awakened ending, the Awakened adopt your wet dream resistance, where they fight purely in self defense against waves of Shapers. The Shapers never let up, nor are they willing to acknowledge the existence of independent serviles and Drakons.

4. In the GF 3 Rebel ending, the Shapers make it clear that they will never surrender to their Creations.

5. In GF 4, Alwan makes it quite clear that he wishes to exterminate all Drayk life. This is despite the fact that Alwan is possibly one of the most progressive Shapers in the game. How on earth could a Drayk/Drakon negotiate with such a man?

But by all means Nioca, tell me how independent serviles and Drayks can negotiate with the Shapers for autonomy, when Shaper ideology makes it quite clear that independent serviles and Drayks shouldn't exist in the first place?

Such pipe dream thinking is the equivalent of thinking that the blacks could have negotiated with the KKK for freedom from discrimination, apartheid and racial hate back in the 1950's.

[ Sunday, March 09, 2008 22:48: Message edited by: Lepus timidus ]

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Amyth
Shaper
Member # 7472
 written Monday, March 10 2008 09:04 Profile Homepage #141
quote:
Originally written by Lepus timidus:

quote:

Fine, but that's still no justification for genocide. The Rebels didn't even grant the chance for Shapers to surrender.
In the GF3 Rebel Ending (and the Taker ending), your PC is sent as a diplomat to the Shapers to tell them of the invasion. Naturally, the Shaper Council in Poryphra make it quite clear that they will never surrender.
The Shaper Council. Not every Shaper on the face of the world. 9 Shapers. Somehow, despite them wanting to, I don't think they speak for every Shaper in the Geneforge world.

quote:
quote:

Whether or not they would have is moot,
No, it's not moot. Shapers have been conditioned not to 'bow' to their Creations, hence there was no point of offering the Shapers a chance to surrender PRIOR to the invasion, because:

1. It would have been laughed at (witness GF2 Taker/Awakened ending).

2. The Rebels would have lost the element of surprise, which apart from the Geneforge, was the only advantage they have over the Shapers.

3. The diplomats would almost certainly have been killed (witness rebel endings to GF 1, GF 2, GF 3)
What, the Rebels were incapable of attaching a note to those lovely invasion cards they sent in GF3? "Oh, and any Shaper who agrees to cooperate won't be killed."

quote:
But I do agree that once the invasion has been launched and the Rebels have some leverage, Shapers should be offered a chance to surrender and recant their anti-Creation ideology. And they were. None of them took it.
I'm sorry, but I've never seen or am failing to recall anything along those lines. Could you post evidence to those claims?

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quote:

all the more so because the global mindset of the sect does not represent the individual;
I'm going to disagree with you, here. An individual wouldn't be a member of the Shaper sect unless they believed in the inferiority of their Creations, and their right to snuff out independent Creation life. In fact, having such an attitude is a prequisite for being allowed to progress in their sect.
And what about those few Shapers that, privately, don't? By your argument, Litalia must believe creations inferior as well.

quote:
quote:

the fact that they killed them simply because they're Shapers is genocide.
No, it's called a pre-emptive strike.
Do you even know what a pre-emptive strike is?

quote:
The problem is that individuals such as yourself and Diki think that the Shapers can be reasoned with by independent creations, when it's shown time and time again that Shapers will do nothing of the sort
And they can be. How else can you play an intelligent servile and join the Shapers in GF4? And the Shapers aren't this constant war-mongering bloodthirsty threat; if they were, the Ashen Isles wouldn't remain under rebel control in the events of the Shaper ending.

quote:
But by all means Nioca, tell me how independent serviles and Drayks can negotiate with the Shapers for autonomy, when Shaper ideology makes it quite clear that independent serviles and Drayks shouldn't exist in the first place?
Because there's the miraculous species inside the Rebellion that can negotiate with the Shapers without overly inciting prejudice. They're called *gasp* HUMANS! :eek:

Oh, but I forgot. The Creation side of the Rebellion effectively threw the human side away, and refuse to trust or even really acknowledge them except as a nuisance and/or inferior.

See, someone like the PC in GF4 might have possibly been able to negotiate a truce, if the Rebellion had laid off the 'annihilate the Shapers or die trying' garbage. If the Drakons had actually been open to negotiation, this could easily have ended in less bloodshed. But instead, the Drakons chose the coward's way out, and unleashed a mutant horde of uber-creations against the Shapers.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Ale193
Apprentice
Member # 15228
 written Monday, March 10 2008 10:23 Profile #142
To me its obvious that the shapers are bad, however the rebellion has effectively become twice as bad. what Lepus doesn't seem to understand is that this is not a war against some random race of aliens; its a Rebellion, the point of a rebellion is to overthrow a corrupt government and/or gain independence, to reform not to destroy a attacking force, but to reform and make things better. they're just killing everybody. if this were a war where two countries were fighting, with an obvious good and evil side or even the gorg scenario; I would adopt Lepus's policies of mass destruction and just leveling the enemy territory and killing everyone in it. but this isn't you're effectively firebombing yourself.
if your fighting for morals, you can't fight without them. its become a senseless ware of mutual vengeance instead of a glorious revolution for the common good.
the rebels have switched from the enlightened beliefs of the awakened (what happened to them anyway) to the crazed ideology of the takers.

Lepus's analogies are all void because they are reflecting the wrong type of war. this is nothing like WWII, its more like a wildly out of control cross between the American Civil War and the French revolution with a side of Nuclear Armageddon.

I agree with Lepus on the Genocide thing. its not genocide to kill your enemies, even if they are all the same race, its only genocide if you're killing them because of their race, not because they dissagree with you. this does not however, justify the slaughtering of hapless civilians, even if it's not genocide it's still mass murder.

Really both sides are equally at fault, but the shapers are less likely to trigger an apocalypse, so a no truly enlightened factions remain, I'd have to side with them. Basically, everyone involved is majorly and unavoidably screwed.

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To speak the truth one must first see it through both eyes.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, March 9 2008 08:00
Amyth
Shaper
Member # 7472
 written Monday, March 10 2008 17:44 Profile Homepage #143
quote:
Originally written by Ale193:

I agree with Lepus on the Genocide thing. its not genocide to kill your enemies, even if they are all the same race
Or nationality. Or political opinion. The Shapers fall under both, and lets not kid ourselves, the Rebels aren't targeting people because they're enemies. The Shapers are being targeted because they're just that: Shapers. That is genocide.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Safey
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
 written Monday, March 10 2008 19:25 Profile #144
quote:
Originally written by Nioca:

quote:
Originally written by Ale193:

I agree with Lepus on the Genocide thing. its not genocide to kill your enemies, even if they are all the same race
Or nationality. Or political opinion. The Shapers fall under both, and lets not kid ourselves, the Rebels aren't targeting people because they're enemies. The Shapers are being targeted because they're just that: Shapers. That is genocide.
To be fair the actual shapers are a government organization that is heavily geared towards military if you where to rebel against that government, government/military officials would be fair game.

However what I have against the drakons is that they order the unbound to destroy everything they see. Not only does that kill alot of innocent people but its also counter productive, (those unbound didn't seem to bright). Say for example you get one that takes the term everything a little bit to literal. You have any idea how much it be slowed down destroying every tree and rock between two villages.

Second their a significant amount of innocent people who in no way economically or military support the shapers yet would dwell with them. Their called refugees. Imagine by the point in the war their will be large amount of refugees who have fled the war areas.

Did they really have to order them to destroy all life? Why not just say target Shaper forces? I mean it would be quite humorous watching an unbound destroying every tree between two village if it took a very broad term of the word(unbound don't come across as being to bright), but I'm not sure thats what drakons wanted exactly.

Thirdly how many drayks/drakons does it take to screw in a light bulb? Do they seriously need the combined resources of both races to work on the unbound? Greta seems to think that they have large numbers of both just lying around. If they had at least sent more drayks to battle they might not have had to worry about the tribe of cryo-drayks rebelling. The shapers may be arrogant and it might be possible to get a few who are as arrogant as the drakon average but most are humble in comparison to the drakons ex:

Drakon1: We lost a battle.
Drakon2: Blame it on the humans
Drakon1: Then what?
Drakon2: We will pull our troops back let the humans fight the shapers alone, stop maintaining the geneforges and put all our resources into building a new super weapon even thought the first one didn't seem that effective.
Drakon1:sounds good

[ Tuesday, March 11, 2008 09:18: Message edited by: Safey ]

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Ale193
Apprentice
Member # 15228
 written Tuesday, March 11 2008 11:11 Profile #145
Perhaps I should clarify that Shapers are not technically a race; they are a Nation and thus share a common political opinion. I would think that most off my enemies would share at least political opinion, if not Nationality; thats generally why their my enemies in the first place. I would have to have a lot of enemies for them to include a variety off opinions and nationalities. THIS DOES NOT HOWEVER, mean that I condone the rebels actions, whether or not it's considered genocide they're still massacring largely innocent civilians. Really, the fact that they are being so indiscriminate about who they kill is proof that it's not genocide.

Whatever happened to the awakened? they were the only faction I could play without feeling guilty, the only ones with any commons sense. their beliefs were just the way I felt about the issue. have they all died and left the game without any truly enlightened faction. the rebels started out like them, but now they've started to go insane. I don't like the shapers either, but they're the best of a bad lot.

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To speak the truth one must first see it through both eyes.
Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, March 9 2008 08:00
Amyth
Shaper
Member # 7472
 written Tuesday, March 11 2008 13:22 Profile Homepage #146
quote:
Originally written by Ale193:

Really, the fact that they are being so indiscriminate about who they kill is proof that it's not genocide.
Except they're targeting the Shapers simply because they are Shapers, not because they're enemies. Before, a Shaper could join the Rebellion. Then the Drakons took over; aside from Greta and Litalia, who were already a part of the Rebellion, how many Shapers have you seen in the Rebellion since?

And don't tell me that it's just Shaper mindset, because Master Hoge, a rather high-ranking Shaper who should be all for Shaper propaganda, also joined the Rebellion in GF3.

quote:
Whatever happened to the awakened? they were the only faction I could play without feeling guilty, the only ones with any commons sense. their beliefs were just the way I felt about the issue. have they all died and left the game without any truly enlightened faction. the rebels started out like them, but now they've started to go insane. I don't like the shapers either, but they're the best of a bad lot.
The Awakened were killed off in official canon for the end of GF2. However, since GF5 involves 5 full factions, I fully expect them to make a comeback.

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Tuesday, March 11 2008 14:16 Profile #147
[quote=Nioca]
[QB]
quote:
Except they're targeting the Shapers simply because they are Shapers, not because they're enemies.
Are you obtuse?

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"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00
Amyth
Shaper
Member # 7472
 written Tuesday, March 11 2008 14:21 Profile Homepage #148
No. Are you?

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Hz'ii'zt a'iiencf coxnen a'bn'z'p pahuen yzpa'zuhb be'tt'phukh'kn az'ii'ova mxn't bhcizvi'fl?

Nioca's Citadel - A resource for BoA graphics and scripts, as well as my scenarios.
Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Lepus timidus
BANNED
Member # 10430
 written Tuesday, March 11 2008 14:24 Profile #149
I don't think so. I'm very careful not to repeat the same assertions ad nauseum, especially when they have been soundly refuted.

--------------------
"I am Barzhal, and I am here to ask you a question:
Is a man not entitled to the products of his own essence?

No, says the servile in Medab. It belongs to the oppressed.
No, says the Shaper in Terrestia. It belongs to the Shaper Council.
No, says the Trakovite in hiding. It belongs to no-one.

I rejected those answers. Instead, I chose something
different. I chose the impossible. I chose… Ascension."
Posts: 136 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00

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