Ideologies of Geneforge (4)
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| Author | Topic: Ideologies of Geneforge (4) |
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Apprentice
Member # 5650
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written Tuesday, April 3 2007 20:34
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What, no poll on this yet? Which ideology do you agree with most? Poll Information This poll contains 1 question(s). 43 user(s) have voted. You may not view the results of this poll without voting. function launch_voter () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=vote;pollid=LwYiVSYERycJ"); return true; } // end launch_voter function launch_viewer () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=view;pollid=LwYiVSYERycJ"); return true; } // end launch_viewer function launch_window (url) { preview = window.open( url, "preview", "width=550,height=300,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status,menubar=no,scrollbars,resizable,copyhistory=no" ); window.preview.focus(); return preview; } // end launch_window   Posts: 42 | Registered: Thursday, March 31 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, April 3 2007 22:12
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I'll give you one guess which one will win with this lot. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Tuesday, April 3 2007 22:33
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I choose shapers because under their rule is peace and order. The rebellion just bring chaos (creation of the unbound is the only way the rebels can turn the tide in their favor) and they in my opinion haven gotten to far away from their views. I don't agree with the trakovites because people will find ways of mass destruction regardless of their technolgy (If I remeber correctly the awaken had trapped a powerful demon that was summoned not shaped into existance). Plus some shapeing secerts will always exist like that on suci island. What the trakovites want to do is what the shapers tried with suci island expect on a far larger scale with far fewer resources and we all know how that ended. [ Tuesday, April 03, 2007 22:35: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Tuesday, April 3 2007 23:20
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I agree whole heartedly with Rebel (more specifically, Taker) ideology. The Shaper regime is oppressive, cruel and callous. The only way that humans and creations will take their free is via force. As for this nonsense about causing chaos. Every revolution has resulted in temporary chaos, which progressed to anarchy, which progressed to a stable form of government. [ Tuesday, April 03, 2007 23:47: Message edited by: Suspicious Vlish ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5650
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written Tuesday, April 3 2007 23:59
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I agree with them all, more or less. Foremost I agree with the Shapers; this power of Shaping should not be taken lightly, should be a discipline developed through study, effort, and determination. It is not a gift, it is earned. If you handed out the power of Shaping to just anyone and everyone, there'd be a whole lot of Unshaping going on pretty soon. I also agree with the Trakovites. Some things just shouldn't have been created, some abilities never should have been developed or used. But you can't turn back the clock; anything humanity can conceive of, they'll make it happen, whether it should be done or not. And after the gene is out of the bottle, only dire necessity will put it back, when it becomes clearly the pro-survival choice. As much as I admire the Rebels, they seem to have gotten away from their roots; the respect for sentience. Creating life is easy for anyone; just inspect a fistful of jizz or a used tampon for evidence that we're creating life all the time; but sustainable life has a tendency to take on a life of it's own, a life that you can only take so much responsibility for. While Shapers treat all creations as extensions of themselves and faulty extentions as rogues, the rebels want to foist emancipation on all creations whether they've achieve that sentience or not. And at the heart of it, self-interest. Whether you're living in the best of all possible worlds or whether it's going to hell in a handbasket, you can only make the most of it by tending your own garden. So f*ck 'em all and get yours. Be honest; the real choice you make is the one that'll get you the longest and most comfortable life anyway, or afterlife, if you have faith in such a thing. Anything's possible, so it doesn't hurt to cover your bases and secure that as well. Posts: 42 | Registered: Thursday, March 31 2005 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 00:07
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I intend to find out who has the most treasure, kill them, take it, and repeat the process. (Hey, someone had to say it.) [ Wednesday, April 04, 2007 00:07: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 01:05
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quote:Most revolution do bring chaos true. However most bring something else that make that tempory chaos worth while the rebellion does not. The drakons are becomeing the very shapers they seek to destroy. Not only will the be oppresive as the Shapers but they will lack their order and wisdom. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 01:28
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Lord Safey: quote:Really? The emancipation of creations is not worthwhile? The right of self-determination for humans is not worthwhile? The right of Drayks and Drakons to exist is not worthwhile? quote:And I see such possibilities as irrelevant. 'Could, should, might, maybe'. Even if the results of a revolution turn out to be unfavourable, that does not change the fact that the revolutionaries fought for a valid cause. An excellent example to demonstrate my point is the Russian Revolution. The revolutionaries had a legitimate grievance against the Czar and his minions. The peasants were starving, and dying in a bloody war. They were shot at by the Czar's troops. They rose up. Sure, 30 years down the track, they had a communist dictatorship. But I'm sure that even you will agree that rising up against their oppressors was the only real option available to the Russian people. The fact that things ended up under Stalin is just bad luck. Quite simply, the Drakons COULD end up being the new Shapers. Maybe, maybe not. But one thing is for certain... the current system under the Shapers is oppressive. So the options are either: 1. The Creations and humans allow things to remain the way the are, where they are guaranteed to be oppressed by Shaper rule. or 2. The Creations and humans fight for independence, with the possibility that another oppressive regime may take the Shapers place. As Emperor once said regarding an alliance with the Nazis... "I can't fight the Nazis while under the bootheel of the Imperial Japanese" (not an exact quote, but you get the idea.) Likewise, the serviles, humans and drayks can't fight the Drakons while under the bootheel of the Shapers. So let's deal with one oppressor at a time, hmmm? Throw off Shaper oppression first. If the Drakons become dominative, then we can work from there. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7764
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 01:35
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I say the same as DokEnkephalin (but I still want to shape things!) -------------------- I have a karma of 2!Yay! Posts: 60 | Registered: Monday, December 11 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8390
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 02:58
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Shapers: Order is the foundation of sustainable prosperity. The Shapers have many internal and governmental problems to resolve, social questions to answer, and plenty of ambition to reign in, but they bring peace and order. The Drakons do not. The Drakons would be far more powerful, far less sane, and have no interest in the other races beyond slave labor. Trakovism wouldn't work. Too many secrets have escaped for shaping to die, for one thing. Also, shaping does a lot of good when not used by the insane; healing, ornks, superior crops- All these be good things, with healing as the most important. After all, in a low/no science world, people'd be screwed without magic healing. Posts: 37 | Registered: Tuesday, March 27 2007 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 03:22
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Oh boy. Here we go again. :P Sir Spiff: quote:Not necessarily. A hypothetical to demonstrate why this is so: Imagine that you have a pharoah from ancient Egypt. This pharoah, and his elite guard, use slave labour to build fantastic pyramids and monuments, cities and temples. The slaves are routinely beaten and starved to keep them in line. At the end of every day, they are shackled in an underground prison. You walk down the streets of this pharoah's empire, and you see order, and what is clearly a functioning society. Now, we must ask two questions: 1. Are the people of this Empire prosperous? 2. Is this a civilization you would want to live within? Quite simply, merely because civilization X is more orderly than civilization Y does mean that it is preferable to civilization Y. Also note that life under the Nazi regime, or Stalin totalitarian regime, was quite orderly. Life under the regime in V for Vendetta was also very orderly, with curfews enforced. Would you want to live in those societies? quote:Well, no, that's where you're dead wrong. The Shapers do NOT bring peace. Two powerful arguments to demonstrate why are as follows: 1. The only reason there is peace within the Shaper Empire is because the Shapers have used extreme violence to wipe out all opposition. A 'peaceful' nation does not use extreme violence to maintain stability. The hypocrisy of maintaining peace with war is explored in '1984' by George Orwell. I suggest you read it. 2. The Shapers clearly do not want peace, given that they refuse to negotiate with the Rebellion. Any empire or nation who is genuinely interested in peace would at least attempt some measure of diplomacy with the opposition, before resorting to gratitious violence. As I've stated in the past: The Drakons make peace difficult, but the Shapers make peace impossible. If the Shaper regime were to grant autonomy to serviles, allow Drayks and Drakons to exist, and allow ordinary humans to have a say in the regulation of Shaping and magic, it's reasonable to assume that most popular support for the Rebellion would bleed away in a microsecond. The fact that the Shapers won't do this is very telling. Quite simply, they are a war-like sect which enforces its whim with violence, oppression, and a monopoly of the Shaping arts. quote:The Drakons don't bring peace. Wow, what a surprise, given that they are under constant threat of extermination. What do you expect them to do... lie down and die, so that 'peace' can reign in the Shaper empire? That's the most god damn ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Perhaps countries under Nazi occupation should have laid down their arms, in the interest of maintaining 'peace'. quote:Conjecture. The Drakons haven't been given a chance to govern in peacetime, so it's really not known how they would react. I'd argue that the Drakons have a tendency to be violent and uninhibited because they are at war with a superior opponent who wants to wipe them off the face of the Earth. The Drakons are merely reacting to genocide in a manner which any human race would. With extreme violence and prejudice. If someone first created me, enslaved me, and then targeted me for extermination, I would use any means necessary to save my own life, and that of my race. [ Wednesday, April 04, 2007 03:24: Message edited by: Suspicious Vlish ] -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 06:15
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quote:Why are the eyebeasts left out? Think of the baby eyebeasts. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5650
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 06:48
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quote:They're already revolting, and if the Shapers don't smite them for it, the drakons should. Posts: 42 | Registered: Thursday, March 31 2005 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 06:53
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Most eyebeasts seem to get along fine with drakons and even humans as far as I can remember. They hate the shapers for the same reason drayks and drakons do. The shapers want to destroy what they can't control. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8390
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 06:57
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quote:You got my point backwards. I said, "Order is the foundation of sustainable prosperity." Let's say that a concrete slab is the foundation of any house (I generalize, but it's to make a point). You can have a concrete slab without a house, but a house without the concrete slab will fall. Likewise, you can have order without prosperity, but prosperity without order crumbles swiftly. quote:Yet at the same time, the hard-core shaper, Alwan, is willing to deal with a rogue servile (you, if you choose to be a servile), and keep his word, even consider you something like a friend. He does not NEED your help, but he accepts you. Shaper conservativism is not as absolute as it once was. While in the strict shaper ending, it takes deeper root, in the stalemate ending, I believe there is hope within the shapers themselves to overcome their hyperconservativism. quote:Of course you oppose the enemy tooth and nail, but Drakons are openly hostile to their own allies, who certainly aren't trying to destroy their entire race. In their arrogance, they throttle their human "allies" by shutting down their only truly powerful weapon, the Geneforge, because they see humans as trivial. quote:Correct. You would make any ally, use any tool, and support those who can help you in any way possible. You wouldn't alienate your only supporters and rely solely on your own resources. Humans and serviles could have help with the Unbound project, Litalia especially. The Drakons irrationally discarded valuable resources and skills out of arrogance and dementia. Posts: 37 | Registered: Tuesday, March 27 2007 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 07:23
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I choose... me. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8425
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 08:54
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I really hope this doesn't turn into another Drakon vs. human debate. We've already got one of those. -------------------- The sparrows are flying again. Posts: 23 | Registered: Sunday, April 1 2007 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 10:49
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Baby eyebeasts! Yikes! Now that we know that gazers reproduce sexually, we do have to ask how their young develop. Do gazers lay eggs? I'd bet they might, on the tenuous grounds that they were developed from vlish, and vlish love making nests. Plus a gazer egg just seems ideal. It would be perfectly round. And just imagine the happy moment when the gazer hatchling breaks its shell, by squinting out its first cute little Kill ray. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 12:21
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lets take the view of your average human in geneforge, Why should I trust some so called self righegtious rebellion, The shapers may not be perfect but becuase of them I have a place to live and food to eat. The main difference between Czar russia and the shapers is that the shapers had a system that worked it was obressive yes but it worked and everyone that followed the rules with the rebels no one lives. They fight among themselves the Drakons have all but forgotten what they are fighting for and just want power if they where fighting for survial they would have inculed the rest of the rebellion on the unbound project. Did they no they just wanted a monoply on the power of the unbound. So far every atrocity the shapers have commited has been equaled if not execed by the rebellion. I can trust the shapers the shapers do(at least try to do) what they say they are going to do. The rebellion you have to guess what your supposed allies are going to do. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 13:37
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SoT: quote:You're making the assumption that nests = eggs. Mice and hares also make nests. Battle alphas have been shown to have nests. None of them are egg laying creatures. ;) -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 15:38
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Sir Spiff: quote:Ahh, fair enough. I see what you're saying now. I still find the comment that 'Shaper society is orderly, hence the Creations and humans oppressed within it shouldn't cause trouble' objectionable. An orderly society isn't necessarily a society I'd want to live in. An orderly society which is rounding my people up for genocide (Nazis = Perfect example) isn't going to earn my support, even if it does bring some people (the Germans?) prosperity. I'd rather take the alternative. quote:So getting someone on the opposition to spy for you counts as diplomacy? So the Soviets would have been engaging in diplomacy with America if they had planted a few KGB agents in the Pentagon? quote:True, he doesn't need your help. But it sure makes things easier for the Shapers if they have a double agent carrying out the dirty, violent work for them. I don't consider employing someone to do the killing for you 'diplomacy'. quote:All that GF4 demonstrated is that the Shapers are willing to negotiate reluctantly with soldiers in the opposing faction, as long as that soldier is willing to sabotage, spy and kill enemies of the Shapers. The Shapers still lack the ability to negotiate with the resistance. Perhaps if they had a 'sit-down' with the humans, Drayks, Drakons, and Eyebeasts, then perhaps they could come to a compromise. At the worst, they could attempt to negotiate a truce. But the Shapers, a supposedly 'peaceful' people, won't do this. Quite simply, the Shaper Empire doesn't thrive on peace. It thrives on violence. They only know how to maintain control by brutally crushing anyone who objects to their totalitarian rule. quote:If that indeed is true, then the Rebellion is achieving its goal, isn't it? If extreme violence forces the Shapers to rethink their attitudes towards non-Shapers, then resistance has been successful. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6912
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 18:01
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Suspicious Vlish do you think the rebellion is staying true to the ideas that set it in motion? Rebellions ideology as I remember was to free creations and people from shaper oppression. What is it now? Would Litalia switch sides if she knew that the rebellion would have to resort to something like unbound? Just your opinion. [ Wednesday, April 04, 2007 18:07: Message edited by: rantalot ] Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 19:43
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You don't need opinion. It's stated in the game. Litalia says: quote:Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 19:54
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quote:I thought that this philosophy would be leading without question. Hey people stop pretending that you care about anyone but yourselves. At least ET and Thuryl are honest about their self interest. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6912
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written Wednesday, April 4 2007 20:25
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I know that’s what she says now i am wondering if she would have switched sides at the beginning if she knew that unbound would be needed only for the SURVIVAL of the rebellion, not even a victory. She has no choice now she is considered as bad as a drakon and that is pretty much the whole point of people who are disappointed in the rebels after G4. The rebels were always controversial, but they had a clear cut mission to free the world from shaper oppression. After the unbound who will see the rebels as liberators? True rebels have killed innocent bystanders before and that is an unfortunate reality of any war, but this is completely different. The strategy the rebels have chosen makes civilians prime targets. The thread is about ideologies and the only ideology I now see in the rebels is the doctrine to keep forces on the mainland at all cost. Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00 |