Ideologies of Geneforge (4)
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Monday, April 9 2007 10:08
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Of course, but you also have to consider what the next rebellion will look like. Unfortunately, we don't have a lot to go on, but here's what I think. This rebellion devastated half a continent, killed or displaced probably thousands of people, and had the potential to unleash a superweapon that could completely destroy the other half of the continent and kill and displace thousands more people with ease. As the Shapers get more controlling, only harsher methods will work to overthrow them. As the Shapers get more shaping skill, even more deadly creations will be used in war. When the Shapers lose control next, the resulting rebellion will be worse than this one was. But if the Shapers weren't so arrogant and controlling, the next rebellion wouldn't be as bad. How many humans would actually take up arms against the Shapers if the Shapers listened and responded to their complaints instead? How many serviles and drayks would choose to fight the Shapers if they could coexist peacefully with them? Not nearly so many, and the rebellion would be much smaller and less devastating. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, April 9 2007 11:01
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Waylander - Could you please change your PDN? It is confusingly similar to our esteemed moderator Delicious Vlish. Several times now I have been on the verge of PMing him in response to some asinine comment, only to notice that it was you, rendering the comment moot. Also, I'm amazed at the level of compliance and submission demonstrated in this thread. Unless this is just a matter of defending a random position, it doesn't bode well for the future. Well, unless you are in the ruling class. Then you have a huge flock of sheep to dominate. -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, April 9 2007 17:55
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I had no idea that was you, Waylander. That said: Salmon, don't make me change my PDN to Nutritious Vlish. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Monday, April 9 2007 21:13
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Empires will a lways experince rebellions. You have nothing to prove that the next rebellion will be anywhere near as effective. Name me a nation/goverment/orgination that makes everyone happy. Shapers as indiviuals are strongly opposed to accepting you. Lots of them can't stand you and their are some who don't attack you based on orders alone. The drakons as a soceity had no qualms at creating the unbound. Their orginal super weapon was the geneforge. That apparntly wasn't enough for them. They got their super weapons and they still want more. The shapers built a geneforge 10s if not 100s of times more powerful. Yet they turned it down, if they hadn't turn down such power where would your rebellion be. One personw ho used the geneforge had the power of a whole generation of unbound. Had they shapers shared power like you say (the orginal geneforge) where would be now. Check the GF1 ending one where you leave the geneforge intact. Thats what the shapers want to prevent and thats what the rebellion brings. You seem to have the mistaken impresion the rebellion brings freedom. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Monday, April 9 2007 22:05
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Originally by Lord Safey: quote:And you have no evidence that it won't. I do know, however, that war tralls can kill more people than thahds, and that whatever comes next will be able to kill more people than war tralls. quote:There aren't any. But other nations/governments/organizations have ways for unhappy people to express their complaints and have something done about them besides taking up arms than the Shapers' current regime, let alone the Shaper society in the Shaper ending. quote:Why do they do that? Why does the rest of the rebellion let them get away with that? Because it works. Without them, the rebellion would have been crushed. Since the Shapers continued to be stricter and more controlling, the next major rebellion will feature people and/or creations exactly like that or worse because it's the only way they can make progress. quote:So? There are plenty of rebels who still fight for creation rights and greater freedom. But because of the drakons, you've dismissed the entire rebellion. Enough Shapers have decided to accept the servile PC that Shapers as a whole have accepted an independent creation. quote:The rebellion at least has freedom as a goal. The humans, serviles, and drayks are doing a fairly good job of sticking to that, too. The drakons were doing an okay job of that as well until a few months before the PC arrived, when the drakons realized how badly they were losing. The Shapers (except for a few exiles) don't care about anything besides themselves and their ways. Ever. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, April 9 2007 22:26
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I need to object to the notion that Drakons have a collective agenda known as a society. There is no evidence in the games that they have anything more than a rough agreement to do battle against a specific enemy, and they use all resources to combat that enemy with extreme prejudice. If there is any resource extraction or refinement to be done, it is farmed out to servants. Perhaps I missed the part in the game where it describes Drakon society, so please enlighten me. -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 06:51
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Dikiyoba, how can you condemn someone for pointing out that the next Rebellion was never pointed out in size, and then go on asuming that it is big? Also, the rebels didn't allow the Drakons to form the Unbound. They didn't know about the Unbound project. Even when you reveal it, only a few of the human leaders know of it at that point and they are the fanatically invested in the Rebellion. You've got Litlia who "relearned" emotions (I got the feeling it was basically learning how to react to certain things) and Greta who is possibly one of the most hypocrytical characters of the game. Even if I had origanally had Rebel intent at the begining of the game, a person holding to true Rebellion ideology would not allow the Unbound to be made. Greta (at Southforge): text1 = "_Do not be a fanatic. Don't close your eyes. Don't make up your mind before you see both sides of an issue. And don't think there can be only one route to any goal._"; text2 = "_Someday, the rebellion may take the wrong course. And then we will count on the fresh and young, like you, to correct us. That is all. Now, back to your mission._"; -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 07:34
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Originally by Retlaw May: quote:Because I attempted to give some reasons for why it will be big. 1. Those who can shape are getting better and better at it. As they get better, they can create a larger number of creations easier and make bigger, stronger creations. More creations and better creations means more people will get killed in future rebellions, unless both sides launch very specific, controlled attacks. We did not see either side caring too much about entire zones being blocked by mines, pylons, or unwatched creations in this game, so there is no reason to assume they will do so later. 2. The Shapers are so entrenched in their ways that they are ruthless to anyone who opposes them (even moreso after the rebellion). The only way to win victories against them is to be ruthless back. Spawners, Unbound, machinery, anything that creates a large number of creations to destroy everything in sight--they work. The human side of the rebellion, using more conventional tatics, was destroyed. The surviving rebels consider that army weak. As Pirik says, Illya was lost "Through the brute force and brutality of the Shapers, and the softness of the humans." Pirik says the last word as if it puts a foul taste in her mouth. "The rebellion in the south was always mostly humans. They lack the strength of the creations, of the drayks and drakons. And the courage. Their army was routed and destroyed outside the ruins of Thornton, to the north." Releasing powerful, mad rogues seems to work pretty well as a battle tactic, while "fighting fair" doesn't. The Shapers will spend the next several centuries putting down minor uprisings that don't go anywhere and then a group with the power and without the moral considerations (or with "higher" moral considerations) will start another continent-spanning rebellion. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 1423
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 07:37
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People in positions of power usually strive for more power. The Shapers engage in harsher crackdowns. The Rebels (the Drakons at least) are prepared to unleash doomsday devices. This has all been discussed extensively on this thread. But there's an alternative in GF4 that's not being discussed....and that's disarmament. Which is the position of the Trakovites. People have said it's unrealistic since no one wants to give up the power of shaping. But really, only a handful of people hold the power of shaping...those trained in it, and those touched by the Geneforge. This is where the Trakovites have their foothold: the huge majority of the population gains no real benefit from shaping. And those are the people who might be willing to listen. I like the gist of what Drewry said: "we may be naive, but we want people to believe in the strength of these ideas." Thing is, powerful ideas can change the course of history. People in this thread have said that no one's going to give up their shaping power...but it was also said, in the past, that people who owned slaves wouldn't give up slavery. Well, times change, and they do so because people hear different ideas, think about them, and, sometimes, change their minds. There will always be resistance to change, and there will always be conflict...but when the dust settles, sometimes you have a established a new way of doing things. Posts: 13 | Registered: Tuesday, July 2 2002 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 08:30
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quote:That's some mighty powerful stuff you said. You might be careful, sanity ain't too popular in these parts. It's funny to me how we've moved from the original question "Which ideology do you agree with most?" to explaining to the Shaper worshippers that failure to greet the Shaper with open arms doesn't mean Rebel-puppet. Necessarily. I am sure there are some who enjoy strife for the sake of the fresh bodies daily generated. But most rational intelligent humans prefer to see a level playing field, where advantages are shared and disadvantages mitigated. I agree that removal of Shaping, in all forms, and those creatures that have been newly made, must be erased. Serviles may continue to exist, perhaps out of sentimentality since they so closely resemble my species. But the rest is unbalancing to nature. Introduction of foreign fauna to an established ecosystem is a recipe for disaster, as has been proven time and time again. For the Shapers to have done so despite the outstanding evidence, or without doing small-scale independent research to determine the effect of each creation on nature, writes a true tale of their ability to make rational decisions. While they may be technically able, they lack the ability to make decisions that have any long-term beneficial consequences to either themselves, or their surroundings. Ah yuh. -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 10:37
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Adimtly the shapers might have another rebellion to deal with in a few centuries. However the war isn't even over and the Rebellion is already experincing its own rebellion. First off for a war to be big (like you mention) both sides have to be strong enough to be a significant threat. True the shapers will have more dangerous creations. However I doubt a new rebellion could get those shapeing abilities whole sale. This rebellion was pratically given shapeing abilitys by the shapers. Giveing drakons the ability to shape was the biggest mistake ever. In geneforge 3 the guy mines a forest on hamrony isle pays well for papers you consider trival. The shapers also undergo some reforms. They banned creation dueling and torturing creations. The also keep the ecolgy in mind when makeing new creations. So saying that the shapers don't keep people in mind at all is incorrect. Possibley they don't listen too outsiders as much as they could afford too. However I don't a petition would go over to well with the drakons. P.S. I consider drakons a society because they have a set of rules and ranks. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 16:09
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Originally by Lord Safey: quote:My original point was, if the Shapers provoke another rebellion for the exact same reason as this one started, then they haven't learned anything. All they've done is repeat the exact same mistake over again, only worse than before. quote:Right. No matter how hard the Shapers try, they are eventually going to slip up. And when they do, all of the people and intelligent creations they've oppressed over the years will take full advantage of that. Look how many and how quickly people jumped sides from Shaper to rebel when the option opened up. There were plenty of humans in the Awakened and Barzites of G2. And even if the next rebellion is small, there will have been hundreds if not thousands of deaths of people and intelligent creations like the serviles Litalia had to kill, anyone who attempted to learn Shaping, anyone who ended up in a Barred location, anyone who questioned the Shapers laws too deeply, any Trakovite, and any drayk, gazer, etc. that the Shapers came across during the centuries of "peace". Is that the sort of society you want to live in? Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 19:09
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quote:Its better then the alterntive. Which is either dead or drakon rule. Despite their faults amy of their laws are made with a good reason. You can claim the awaken or the traokvites fight for freedom but the rebellion is a differn't people group all together, they fight for vengence survial is mearly an excuse. The Drakons, dryaks, and even serviles fight for vengence. Vengence, no matter how justified, is nothing to base a nation on. The shapers fight to maintian order. Second I see no justification for the Drakons unbound. They completed not one but three geneforges (drakon, north, and south) they still lose. Sure the intially lose some ground at the begining of the war due to suprise and introduction of new shapeing. However they made a come back despite the suprise and the advantage the geneforges was suppose to give them. The unbound is just another super weapon like the geneforge it will intially cause the shapers to lose some ground. They still have a whole another contient and western terretria (I western terrestria was ddevestaed not lose not sure about that though). The shapers will recover. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 20:25
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I really don't get where you get that "many people jump sides quickly to the Rebellion" deal. As far as I know, the majority of the intellegent beings are still on the Shaper side. Just because they don't actively fight for the Shapers doesn't mean anything. The Rebellion is a minority with passion. I would argue how weak many of the human convictions are against the Shapers since more were willing to switch over to the Shapers once they saw the Rebels were losing. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6912
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written Tuesday, April 10 2007 20:35
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Can anyone provide quotes of shaper oppression of humans? They don’t rescue them sometimes, but that’s not really oppression. A human can’t start a fight with a shaper and expect to get the same punishment as fighting a normal human, but same goes in any liberal country if you fight a policeman. There are restrictions on freedom of speech, but even USA has restrictions and that’s like…the FIRST amendment. Shapers put down riots THE SAME WAY ANY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD DOES. With force. I am by no means trying to say that shapers are good. Odds are that if I lived in Geneforge world I would ***** about shapers day and night, I don’t however think they are bad enough to start a HUGE war over. Everything written above is only true if you are a human. Yes I would fight tooth and nail if I was a drakon and odds are I would send out the unbound way before they did. Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00 |