Ideologies of Geneforge (4)

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AuthorTopic: Ideologies of Geneforge (4)
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #25
The civilians aren't being targeted... they are merely collaterol damage. Bad luck for them, I guess.

[ Wednesday, April 04, 2007 21:52: Message edited by: Suspicious Vlish ]

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #26
Akhari-Blaze tells the unbound to "destroy everything." Civilians are being targeted. The Rebellion is a terrorist organization, concerned only with bringing down the current regime, and willing to kill anyone who doesn't agree with them.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #27
I love Tullegolar's theories. He always manages to come way out from left field and blindside his opponent. Waylander, you should take him off ignore and not be so sensitive.

[ Wednesday, April 04, 2007 22:50: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #28
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Now that we know that gazers reproduce sexually, we do have to ask how their young develop. Do gazers lay eggs?
Strictly speaking, all we know is that their process of reproduction is "very biological". Given how intensely solitary and territorial they are, and the fact that each of them seems to consist of multiple semi-independent minds, I can imagine them reproducing by budding. And I suppose if they can bud, they might also be able to fuse or recombine or shuffle themselves around.

[ Thursday, April 05, 2007 01:51: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #29
Stillness:

quote:

I love Tullegolar's theories. He always manages to come way out from left field and blindside his opponent. Waylander, you should take him off ignore and not be so sensitive.

This has nothing to do with sensitivity. I don't really care two hoots what Emp has to say. It's a free country.

However, I won't get lured into a debate with him. It's very time consuming, and nothing is ever achieved. It merely degenerates to Emp pretty much manipulating and re-interpreting the game to suit his pre-conceived axioms.

[ Thursday, April 05, 2007 02:30: Message edited by: Suspicious Vlish ]

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 8390
Profile #30
quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

The Shapers still lack the ability to negotiate with the resistance. Perhaps if they had a 'sit-down' with the humans, Drayks, Drakons, and Eyebeasts, then perhaps they could come to a compromise. At the worst, they could attempt to negotiate a truce.[/QB]
Two points:

1) Did the rebels, especially the Drakons, even approach the Shapers diplomatically?

2) Throughout the entire game, the Shapers know the Drakons are creating a doomsday type weapon. What great power in their right mind would, through diplomacy, grant the enemy the time they need to complete a doomsday type weapon?

quote:
Originally written by Suspicious Vlish:

If that indeed is true, then the Rebellion is achieving its goal, isn't it? If extreme violence forces the Shapers to rethink their attitudes towards non-Shapers, then resistance has been successful.[/QB]
The human/servile half, perhaps, but when have heard the Drakons state their goals as "Destroy all Shapers"?
Posts: 37 | Registered: Tuesday, March 27 2007 07:00
Warrior
Member # 7764
Profile #31
quote:
Originally written by Sir Spiff:

[b]
1) Did the rebels, especially the Drakons, even approach the Shapers diplomatically?
[/b]

Would the shapers even accept creations beyond their control into their soceity?probably not.

Also them letting your servile character live is because:

a)Thats just ONE servile,as opposed to a group of drakons/eyebeasts/drayks

b)So playing as a servile is possible in game.

quote:
Originally by Emperor Tullegolar:
[b]
<snip>willing to kill anyone who doesn't agree with them.
[/b]

Oh,and the shapers managing their empire by doing the same is ok?

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I have a karma of 2!Yay!
Posts: 60 | Registered: Monday, December 11 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #32
I never said that. I'm perfectly fine with killing. I just want to make sure that the drakons don't get the moral high ground. Their massacres are far worse than the Shapers'.

Oh, and Stillness, how was I said a theory? Akhari-Blaze did say to destroy everything, that includes civilians.

[ Thursday, April 05, 2007 06:29: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ]

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #33
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

Strictly speaking, all we know is that their process of reproduction is "very biological". Given how intensely solitary and territorial they are, and the fact that each of them seems to consist of multiple semi-independent minds, I can imagine them reproducing by budding. And I suppose if they can bud, they might also be able to fuse or recombine or shuffle themselves around.
So gazers hang out with their buddies. There still ought to be cute little soccer-ball-sized baby gazers, whose stare would give you an itch or something.

Where do you get the idea of semi-independent multiple minds? More gazers seem monomaniacal to me, as though they had rather less than one mind.

And I still like the idea of the spherical eggs.

Really, though, we just don't know anything about this. We have one gazer's claim that gazerkind reproduces biologically. I can imagine it lying out of sheer perversity.

What do we know about any creation reproduction, for that matter? A drayk in G2 claimed to have been 'born to two drayks', if I remember right; and there are young drayks in G3 on Gull Island. There is also a clawbug mother in G2, with eggs or hatchlings to defend, I think.

[ Thursday, April 05, 2007 07:29: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ]

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #34
Terrorists intentionally attack civilians for the sake of causing fear normally because their military might is insufficient to win, Emp. They hope to scare the enemy off, discourage, or punish them in that way because they can't win toe-to-toe. The rebellion attack does not fit that mold. The true target is shapers.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7420
Profile Homepage #35
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

They hope to scare the enemy off, discourage, or punish them in that way because they can't win toe-to-toe. The rebellion attack does not fit that mold. The true target is shapers.
What do you call the unbound then? Stratagy? The drakons can't win toe to toe, so they are going to massacre half a continent worth of people to spread fear instead. The Shaper's are their target? Too bad the Shapers are based on a totally different continent.

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You lose.
Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #36
The rebellion has committed every crime the shapers have, their loseing, and they wasteful political posturing. The shapers commited lots of crimes but if you ally your self to them the shapers can be quite helpful. If I join the rebellion I have to twist arms to get any help. Why on earth would I want to join the rebellion.

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #37
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Where do you get the idea of semi-independent multiple minds? More gazers seem monomaniacal to me, as though they had rather less than one mind.
Well, I'm assuming the fact that sometimes a Gazer refers to itself in the plural and sometimes as "the Eye" isn't just some kind of linguistic peculiarity, but a reflection of their psychology.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Guardian
Member # 5360
Profile #38
Actually, the Gazers refer to themselves as "The Eyes," as in "The Eyes see all." This implies that they have either a Gazer collective, or that each of their eyes considers itself an independent entity owing allegiance to the central eye.

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May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it.
Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
Profile #39
Nazis again, Waylander? I am truly getting tired of your Nazi analogy. I don't agree with it but I need not argue since we have been over this so many times. But I will say a couple things just because I don't like to stay silent while others have all the fun.

1) Shapers really only do anything to you if you openly or actively oppose them.

2) Have you ever seen a poor person in a Shaper controlled city? I get the feeling that most people are prosperous under the Shapers.

3) Note that some upcoming Shapers like Alwan are extremely loyal, but talk about the need for reform in peace. It is because of the war that such reformers are shouted down by the conservatives.

4) If you truly think that your Nazi analogy is true for the Shapers, you should most readily accept ET's terrorist analogy with the Drakons/Rebels, which is much more fitting.

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"After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one."
- Cato the Elder (234-149 BC)

"The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process."
-Kripke

"One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly."
-Friedich Nietzche
Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 8155
Profile #40
Shapers represent order at the expense of freedom. Rebels represent freedom at the expense of order. Taken to their logical extremes they represent stagnation and anarchy, neither of which is satisfactory.

Life necessitates a middle ground, a point which I believe is adequately made apparent in this series.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Thursday, February 22 2007 08:00
Warrior
Member # 6912
Profile #41
quote:
Shapers represent order at the expense of freedom. Rebels represent freedom at the expense of order.
The rebellion no longer represents freedom.
Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #42
quote:
Originally written by Retlaw May:

1) Shapers really only do anything to you if you openly or actively oppose them.
Or learn shaping without their approval, or happen to be born a drayk...

quote:
2) Have you ever seen a poor person in a Shaper controlled city? I get the feeling that most people are prosperous under the Shapers.
You're mixing up cause and effect here. Shapers have wealth and power, so they get to live in all the best places. We know that Shaper lands are sometimed affected by famines (remember Captain Zakary's story?); that doesn't happen to "prosperous" people.

quote:
3) Note that some upcoming Shapers like Alwan are extremely loyal, but talk about the need for reform in peace. It is because of the war that such reformers are shouted down by the conservatives.
Well, that's a plausible excuse, I suppose. I wonder why the Shapers didn't bother to do anything much before the war. The historical sum total of their "reforms" prior to the rebellion seems to have been banning torturing creations and making them participate in blood sports, which is a start, I suppose, but not much of one.

quote:
4) If you truly think that your Nazi analogy is true for the Shapers, you should most readily accept ET's terrorist analogy with the Drakons/Rebels, which is much more fitting.
So? Nelson Mandela was a terrorist too. Sometimes terrorism is the only way to get anybody to listen to you.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 8155
Profile #43
quote:
Originally written by rantalot:

quote:
Shapers represent order at the expense of freedom. Rebels represent freedom at the expense of order.
The rebellion no longer represents freedom.

Sure they do. The rebellion from the human's point of view represents the freedom of access to power that all of an underclass yearn for.

The rebellion from the drakon's point of view represent that most fundamentally anarchic concept of might makes right.
Posts: 8 | Registered: Thursday, February 22 2007 08:00
Warrior
Member # 6912
Profile #44
I am making an assumption here so please don’t flame me. If Greta survives she will remember the battles with Shaper Monarch and the chances of shaping art being available to everyone will start to change fast. Or she doesn’t survive and the drakons will have to deal with several Shaper Monarch wanabees and quickly change the laws.

I didn’t pick this up from the story line so perhaps some one here can help me out. If the rebellion really is all about shaping being available to every one. Why wasnt every human in the base trained to use the geneforge?

[ Thursday, April 05, 2007 22:26: Message edited by: rantalot ]
Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #45
Spiff:
quote:

Two points:

1) Did the rebels, especially the Drakons, even approach the Shapers diplomatically?

The Shapers have been approached diplomatically in GF1 and GF2 (the Awakened), and their desire to be treated as equals was laughed at. And they haven't been barred from existence.

As for the Drakons and Drayks 'approaching the Shapers diplomatically', are you kidding? Their kind is barred from existence. The Shapers have routinely and systematically exterminated their kind. Diplomacy failed. Would it be reasonable to expect a Jew to 'diplomatically' approach the Germans during the Holocaust?

And once again, I stress:

"The Drakons make achieving peace difficult, but the Shapers make it impossible."

quote:

2) Throughout the entire game, the Shapers know the Drakons are creating a doomsday type weapon. What great power in their right mind would, through diplomacy, grant the enemy the time they need to complete a doomsday type weapon?

So the only way to stop your 'enemy' from creating a doomsday device is by ATTACKING him? Um, huh?

Isn't that sort of counter productive? By attacking your opponent with overwhelming force, you're merely giving them incentive to develop highly destructive weapons to defend themselves.

Witness North Korea, or Iran. Who can blame these countries from scrambling to develop WoMD, after being placed on the 'axis of evil' by the world's only remaining, Christian, Capitalist, superpower?

Likewise, who can blame the Drakons for developing the Unbound, when the Shapers have pretty much sworn that not a single Drakon or Drayk should be allowed to exist? Alwan, perhaps the most liberal of Shapers in GF4, doesn't want to just eliminate all Rebels. He wants to eliminate all Drakonian and Drayk life!

I've said this time and time again. The best way to neutralize the Rebellion is via diplomacy. Grant the Creations autonomy, the humans self-determination, and the Drayks/Drakons the right to exist, and you effectively nullify the Rebellion's very reason to exist. There's no reason to fight, and no reason to develop and unleash the Unbound.

Any warmongering Drakons who wanted to disrupt the peace for personal gain would be eliminated by a combined force of Shapers and Rebels (witness the dilemma with Monarch...).

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
Profile #46
Why accept diplomacy when your wining? Did the rebels try to engage in diplomacy when they where wining?don't think so. It was all crush the horrible
shapers. Don't think they are so horrible considering I have met more refugees complain about the rebellion then the shapers. People miss the stabilty and way of life shapers provided, all the rebelion has brought was destruction and considering the drakons haven't been quite about have dommion (where does that sound fimilar). As far as spareing some of the intellegent creations like rebel serivles, dryaks, and drakons. I wouldn't mind dealing with serivles or dryaks they seem more reasonable drakons are just arrogant and too stuborn.

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A rock has weight whether you admit it or not
Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #47
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Where do you get the idea of semi-independent multiple minds? More gazers seem monomaniacal to me, as though they had rather less than one mind.
Well, I'm assuming the fact that sometimes a Gazer refers to itself in the plural and sometimes as "the Eye" isn't just some kind of linguistic peculiarity, but a reflection of their psychology.

I'm a colony of some fifty trillion cooperative cells, but I prefer to stick with "I" rather than "we." There are social benefits to not referring too often to oneself in the plural.

It's ambiguous in the case of the jellyfish which is a true colony, because "fish" can be both singular and plural. Do the jellyfish consider themselves as one or many?

-S-

P.S. I voted Trakovites: right idea, but presently still just a hopeless spoiler party.

[ Friday, April 06, 2007 05:42: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #48
Do you mean Man-O-War's, Synergy? Wikipedia tells me jellyfish are individuals, but some related animals are colonies.

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Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #49
Hmm, that seems to be the case from what I can find too. How many years have I been reading or hearing how "jellyfish are colonies" now? I guess that goes to show how information gets dumbed down for much of the media.

-S-

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