Ideologies of Geneforge (4)
Pages
| Author | Topic: Ideologies of Geneforge (4) |
|---|---|
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Friday, April 6 2007 06:46
Profile
Homepage
Lord Safey: quote:We observe why in GF4. When one side is taking heavy losses, it will resort to more dangerous and desperate measures. The Shapers could easily have averted such a disaster by merely being diplomatic. Perhaps instead of sabre rattling, the Shapers could have tried to arrange a truce. They held all the cards, after all. quote:Attempts at diplomacy were made by the serviles, which were ruthlessly crushed. Time and time again, the Shapers have shown themselves to have no respect whatsoever for dealing with independent humans or creations. When the very act of being an independent and free thinking creation/human is a crime to your opponent, its a little hard to open negotations with him. Rebel servile: "I think that we should sit down and talk about this before..." Shaper: "No! You're not allowed to think for yourself, creation!" *fireball* quote:A lot of Americans complained about the North during the civil war. Some complained bitterly about resistance to the Nazis, because it created chaos and disorder, and provoked collective punishment. The anger observed by some civilians in GF4 is misguided. The chaos is a product of the Shapers. Merely because the Rebels are fighting back does not make them responsible. A rape victim who fights back is not responsible for the black eye she receives. quote:Some do. Some don't. quote:I'm going to be honest, and make an admission. I used to think the way you do. Merely check out my posts in the Geneforge forums less than a year ago. I was a staunch loyalist supporter, and used the exact same arguments you are. The Shapers brought order, the creations and rebel humans were a bunch of trouble makers, how dare they rebel. However, I then had a 'quantum leap' in ideology. The Rebellion is a product of the Shapers. The Rebellion continues to exist because of the Shapers. The destruction rife throughout the land is of Shaper origin. Everything bad that has occurred in Geneforge has its root in Shaper arrogance, intolerance, and decadence. I can't go into the details now, as its getting late, but I suggest you think back through the series. Why did the serviles originally rebels? What about the Drayks? Do they have a legitimate cause? Have the Shapers responded justifiably to their grievances? -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
|
written Friday, April 6 2007 07:13
Profile
quote:Who unleashed the unbound? Who tried to rebuild the geneforge? Who keeps growing more arrogant with each generation? Who escalitates the war? Who sends out countless rouge creations? When did the current rebellion or their predecccsors (takers in genefore 1) try for diplomacy? Shapers have made their mistakes but they are learning from them mabey not to your degree of satsifaction but they have some. You can aruge that the creation side fights for survial but couldn't you make the same claim for the shaper. The rebellion is mess the shapers made true but that would make it their duty to clean it up and if that means by crushing it so be it. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
|
Shaper
Member # 7420
|
written Friday, April 6 2007 08:20
Profile
Homepage
quote:They did. quote:Intelligent serviles are considered rogues and are thus also barred from existence. The fact that the Shapers approached a rogue servile (the PC) shows that they are willling to forgive their former enemies. The fact that no drakon has ever approached a shaper shows that they have no interest whatsoever in peace, and that they have no intention of stopping until all Shapers are dead. The drakons are clearly the bigger barrier to peace here, not the Shapers. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
|
written Friday, April 6 2007 12:59
Profile
All the rebellion is doing is justifying the conservative hardliners among the Shapers. When the Shapers win the Rebellion causes them to take a firmer hand and more controll. Evolution of a society cannot always be forced. I believe that the Shapers were taking small steady steps as more among them felt a need for gradual change, but the Rebellion knocked them all back so the hardliners could say, "Hey look, we are totally justified!" -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Friday, April 6 2007 16:51
Profile
Homepage
quote:I'll repeat this again: Diplomacy was tried twice by the Awakened, and they were crushed. Why do you think Learned Pinner, the former leader of the Awakened, joined the Rebellion? And I don't exactly see how a Drayk or Drakon could engage in diplomacy. They are forbidden to exist. How do you negotiate with an enemy who forbids your very existence? It didn't work out so well for the Jews, did it now? Watch 'Uprising', and then get back to me. As to the Rebellion having Shaper roots: 1. Shaper carelessness allowed powerful knowledge to fall into the hands of its Creations. 2. Shaper callousness directly resulted in the formation of independent serviles, many of whom had a dislike/intense hatred for Shapers, and justifiably so. These serviles were the seed of the Rebellion. 3. Shaper genocide caused a logical progression of the Drayks allying with the serviles. 4. The Shaper's inability to negotiate, despite the fact that they hold all the cards, merely encourages more desperate acts by the Drakons. Those are some of the biggest blunders that the Shapers have made, just off the top of my head. The Rebellion is a direct product of the Shapers. quote:The Drakons. Why did they release them? Because the Shapers want to wipe them out of existence. Once again, a rape victim isn't responsible for her black eye if she struggles. If the Shapers had merely accepted the existence of Drayks and Drakons, would the Drakons needed to have unleashed the Unbound? I'll let you ponder that one. quote:Why did the Drakons need to build the Geneforge? To become strong enough to survive against a genocidal regime. Again, if the Shapers had merely accepted the Drakons, and negotiated with them as equals, then there would have been no incentive for the Drayk to Drakon to Ur-Drakon to SuperDrakon push. quote:What does arrogance got to do with this? The Jews also tended to be elitist, andlook down on the 'Goyim'. Does that mean that they were responsible for WW2? Does that justify their genocide? Arrogance isn't a crime. And the Drakons are arrogant precisely because of the Shapers. The Drakons have been forced to reshape themselves to survive Shaper genocide. quote:Again, the Rebels are doing whatever they can to survive. The SHAPERS escalate the war by being completely unwilling to negotiate a truce, or even remotely consider the terms of the Rebellion. Once again, a rape victim is not responsible for her black eye when she fights back. quote:There would be no need to send out rogue creations if the Shapers weren't on a mission to wipe all independent, sapient life off the the face of the planet. If the Shapers truly had the peoples' interest close to their heart, they would negotiate with the Rebellion. They would attempt to establish equal rights for humans and creations alike. However, they refuse to do this, because the well being of their citizens in incidental. The Shapers are on top, and they want to stay there. They are selfish, greedy, elitist, power-hungry megalomaniacs. They make the Drakons look like angels. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Agent
Member # 4574
|
written Friday, April 6 2007 17:28
Profile
quote:Funny how all evolution towards creation rights, and general evolution as a society, has happened during the Rebellion. Also, to add to last response of Suspicous Vlish's, the Shapers also released rogue creations, like on the Forsaken Lands. Poor spies the Shapers thought were Rebel farmers. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
|
written Friday, April 6 2007 22:24
Profile
Shapers at best influence the rebels moves. No one but you can force your hand. If I remeber correctly the takers try to get you to assiante the leaders of the awaken in GF1 the only group in the entire game that want diplomacy what where you saying about the shapers refuseing diplomacy? The Rebellion wanted them dead more so then the shapers. Granted the shapers became complacent and if wasn't for that the rebellion wouldn't exist. However this rebellion only proved what the shapers said all the long. Every bad thing that the shapers said would happen if outsiders gained signigficant shapeing abilities has happened. They messed up (no one is perfect) and they got a bloody nosed for it but they will clean up the mess they made by crushing the rebellion -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
|
written Friday, April 6 2007 22:36
Profile
Homepage
Lord Safey: quote:I'm afraid I don't agree. The reaction of the Drayks, Drakons and independent serviles is both highly predictable, and completely understandable. If a superpower deemed that you didn't have a right to exist, and underwent a campaign to exterminate your kind, wouldn't you fight back by any means necessary? quote:I do remember the attempted assassination, although I don't remember the justification. Either way, it's important to note that the Awakened's attempts to negotiate with the Shapers failed. Their demands to be treated with equality were laughed at. So in the end, the Takers were right. quote:Complacent isn't the right word. Idiotic is more appropriate. Generating hatred amongst two intelligent races (the serviles and drayks), and then abandoning them on an island with forbidden technology, is the very height of stupidity. It doesn't take much foresight to guess what will happen. quote:You're only looking at half the scenario. Shaping has been used by outsiders in such destructive ways because they are trying to fight off Shaper aggression. quote:You seem to forget that their 'messing up' isn't an isolated incident. They messed up in GF1, GF2, GF3, and GF4. They not only started the fire, but continued to add fuel. quote:And you've entered a bloody cycle. They may crush one Rebellion, but what about the next? And the next? War may build Empires, but diplomacy is required to maintain it. The fact of the matter is that the idealism of creation autonomy has caught on. Serviles have realized that they can function as independent and free beings. The humans have realized that they can rise up against their former masters. You can't unring a bell. You can't reverse an ideology, even with the most extreme violence. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
|
written Saturday, April 7 2007 07:41
Profile
No but the empire is learning the shapers must mantian a sense of strength. They need to use a shoot first ask questions later. DEstroy the rebellion then find out why the rebellion came to be and the solve the problem.If you read the shaper ending it shows that they learned from their mistakes. The attempted assation by the takes only proves to me that the rebellion wants peace no more then shapers do if they did they would have least have let the awaken alone but no they were as desperate as the shapers to destroy them. The drakons consider the shapers on the same level as food do you negotiate with your food? I don't deny the shapers don't want diplomacy neither does the rebellion espically since they did as much to crush any part that wanted diplomacy as the shapers did. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Saturday, April 7 2007 09:29
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Lord Safey: quote:And there was peace... until the next rebellion. quote:The Takers do not exist anymore at the time of G4. The one previous Taker you meet at the Freehold is old, tired, and broken. The situation in G4 is not what it was in previous Geneforges. quote:The drakons do not consider Shapers as food. They see them as enemies. Eating slain foes is a lot different than eating ornks. The drakons would probably negotiate if they held a position and a reason do to so. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
|
written Saturday, April 7 2007 10:37
Profile
When the Shapers win the Rebellion, all the Rebellion did was make the Shapers move backwards to the way that the original goal of the Rebellion. Waylander, a rape victim isn't responsible for their black eye, but they are responsible if they go out and rape innocent people as a reaction. The Unbound project rapes innocent people. And I may have forgotten but I don't remember Learned Pinner in G3 or G4 (I'm not sure), but if she wasn't, how can you be so sure she went to help the Rebellion? Oh and arrogance isn't a crime, but the actions that the Drakons commit atrocities because of it are. And if [i] the Rebellion [/i] truly had the well being of the people in mind, they wouldn't commit so many attrocities. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
|
written Saturday, April 7 2007 12:51
Profile
quote:Oh and what are the dryaks doing? Haveing tea parties. Their is a reason the rebellion is crumbling under pressure. when the same pressure was applied to the shapers they held strong. Second what are they terms for their to be negotiation their have to be terms thats both sides will accept. The outsider humans, serviles, and dryaks might accept a peace. Though the drakons and shapers never would. They are will to use the same force you critized the shapers to stop their own rebellions. Face it the rebellion is crumbling. While the war was still in their favor did the shapers crumble? They lack cohesion the shapers have. Take a look at the effects of canisters and geneforges. Those same genes are employed in creations mabey at first the rebellion was what you said it was but now all it is a mad crazed mob. Can you walk up and negotiate with an Unbound?No and thats what the the drakons and even some of the other rebellion species want to become. Thats what the shapers fight to stop. Mabey they did cause but thats what they fight now. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Saturday, April 7 2007 21:56
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Lord Safey: quote:I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at. Could you explain in more detail? My point was actually that the Shapers aren't necessarily learning from their mistakes. Instead, they're making bigger ones. Keeping a stranglehold on everything and killing every creation they don't like isn't the solution--it's what caused the Rebellion in the first place, and it's caused rebellions before this one and will cause rebellions after this one. The Shapers could approach the unhappy humans, independent serviles, and drayks. The Shapers could negotiate with them and make a few compromises. The bulk of the Rebellion is then gone and the Shapers have a much easier time getting to and dealing with the drakons, if they can't negotiate with them. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
|
written Sunday, April 8 2007 03:16
Profile
What I meant about the comment about the dryaks is that their rebeling from the drakons, at least some are and the ones that aren't don't seem to be to happy about their postion in life. The tribe of cryodryaks that rebeled from the drakons, they sent a force to destroy them. Where is this moral high ground. seems to me that the rebelion is makeing the same mistakes what makes them so morally better. So when I go talk to a drakon "why are you rebelliong against the shapers" He responds with "The wish contiune their oppresive rain and wipe us out" Then i ask "Why are the cryodryaks rebeling from you?" you tell me the response. Some of the shapers have already showed that they are willing to have mercy on the rebel humans. Also in the shaper ending they enter a truce with the rebellion. The shaper ending says that they study the reason for the rebellion , learned from their mistaks, and took steps to prevent another. Which proves your assumption that the shapers will continue to make the same mistakes in the past incorrect. [ Sunday, April 08, 2007 04:19: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Sunday, April 8 2007 06:16
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Lord Safey: quote:Fair enough. Giving the drakons the moral high ground was never my intention. quote:A temporary one. They intended to go back later, just as soon as they had the resources and willpower to spare. "So a temporary peace was declared...But no one truly believed that the war was over...The rebels never slept easy. They knew that, one day, the Shapers would come." quote:It does not say that they learned from their mistakes. It says they learned to be even stricter and more controlling. And it worked for several centuries. But then, there were two centuries between the abandonment of Sucia Island and the start of a rebellion that lost the Shapers half a continent for a while and the Ashen Isles completely (at least until they fight another war to get it back). The Shapers can't control everyone and everything forever--the Shaper ending clearly implies that there is another rebellion. And how big and devastating will that rebellion be, considering that Shaping progress will continue and the creations thrown around will be even more deadly than kyshakks, war tralls, and wingbolts? Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
|
written Sunday, April 8 2007 17:01
Profile
quote:If that is case the rebellion has gotten away from their ideals then, why join them I find a that to be a level hipocrisy. The shapers at least hold true to their ideals unlike the hipocritic rebellion. If what you say is true about the shapers makeing the same mistakes over and over (which I disagree with you on), at least they can handle said mistakes then the rebellion can (since we agreed they are makeing the same ones). Second the ending says they unlike other rebellions the shapered remebered and taught it to appretince shapers. If they just became stricter then why teach that? Sure they became stricter but they lost their arrogance and learned new ways of undermining a rebellion or chances of a rebellion. The rebellion is makeing the same mistakes the shapers did (in a since they are becomeing what they are fighting)and lack the stability the shapers do. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Sunday, April 8 2007 20:14
Profile
Homepage
quote:Only because they haven't started losing yet. See the Rebel ending for what happens when they do. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
|
written Sunday, April 8 2007 20:40
Profile
Do the rebels go back to their ideals when they start winning? keep in mind that the shapers where intially loseing the war. Mabey not as bad as they do when the unbound where released but it wasn't a pinic. They still held to their values. Another thing is I pointed out the ending where shapers learn from their mistakes and you blow it off(one of my points). You point out that shapers throw of their values if they get desperate enough by point out the rebel ending. If you blow of my point why shouldn't I blow off yours. To answer your question yes I admit the shapers proably wouldn't hold to their values if they became desperate enough. However the drakons have treated other species like crap since GF2 regardless of the situation despite the fact the claim to be fight for creation rights. The rebellion isn't fighintg for creation rights its fighting for Drakon rights. They have commited every crime the shapers have and they don't do that to maintian stability they do it becasue they want powr. The greed is evident. If I was a rebel human I quite my post, If i was servile or a dryak I would flee. The drakons have made it evident they want to replace the shaper empire with a Drakon empire. To do that they have to kill many innocent people. For what creations (with excption of drakons) won't have their rights they would have traded one master for a harsher master. [ Sunday, April 08, 2007 20:59: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
|
written Sunday, April 8 2007 21:39
Profile
This is the arguemen that we proShapers (or at least not pro-Rebels) make, but they never agree. This topic has become the same as so many others that I sometimes wonder why new topics are even formed. They will all end up like this or similar. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Sunday, April 8 2007 22:31
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Lord Safey: quote:And yet they are willing to let the Geneforge-altered, canister-using, independent-minded servile PC live and even give him a position of power after the war (provided you go for the Shaper ending, of course). The Shapers don't believe in self-shaping or independent creations, so allowing the servile PC to live is not holding to their values. And that's while the Shapers were winning. quote:Huh? quote:The humans, serviles, and drayks never betrayed their ideals. Only the drakons did. And during the stalemate of the Trakovite ending, the drakons do back down against the pressure from the rest of the rebellion. Dikiyoba. Edit: Typo. [ Sunday, April 08, 2007 22:32: Message edited by: Dikiyobot ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
|
written Sunday, April 8 2007 23:26
Profile
If you voted Shaper or Rebel you are wrong. Either of the remaining is correct. [ Sunday, April 08, 2007 23:26: Message edited by: Spent Salmon ] -------------------- WWtNSD? Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
|
Infiltrator
Member # 7298
|
written Monday, April 9 2007 04:30
Profile
quote:Every time I poin out that the shaper ending shows that they learned from their mistakes you and others blow it off. Mabey they didn't do it in away you find satisfactory. It does state that they did learn from their mistakes. You also stated (think it was you) that the same ending though another rebellion was around the corner. I never saw any thing like that implied, could you show the spcefic text, I lost my file with the shaper ending. Dealing with a alter human/intellegent creation is indeed against one of their rules. They so far remained true to others, like not shapeing something that can'r be controlled, being careful not upset the ecology and so forth. Someone pointed out that drakons are they only ones who don't hold to the values, I though they were the leaders of the rebellion. Why hasn't try rebellion tryed to stop them then? -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
|
...b10010b...
Member # 869
|
written Monday, April 9 2007 05:16
Profile
Homepage
quote:You might want to go back and re-read the Shaper ending text: what they "learned" was that they had to be even stricter with their creations, which was what had caused the rebellion in the first place. quote:Uh, they do try. They try and succeed (to an extent) in the Trakovite ending, and they try and fail in the Rebel ending. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
|
Councilor
Member # 6600
|
written Monday, April 9 2007 06:39
Profile
Homepage
Originally by Lord Safey: quote:Yes. But first let Dikiyoba point out how hypocritical it is to accuse others of blowing you off when you didn't even check to make sure you had your facts right.  Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
|
Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
|
written Monday, April 9 2007 09:37
Profile
But it does imply centuries of relatively peaceful rule. You can't expect for there to be peace for eternity in any large government. Most governments in our world have had a rebellion in some form or another in the last century (yes that includes the US). -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |