Geneforge Political Spectrum
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 06:36
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Behold.  Where do you fall? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 06:46
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The Shapers. But Nalyd will use self-shaping if it is absolutely necessary to live. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 07:16
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Interesting graphic. There are definitely two spectra involved. I think you could further generalize from "self-shaping" to "regulation of shaping." This would add some precision to the spectrum, as the Trakovites are stricter in that regard than the Obeyers, etc. It would be interesting, and more telling I think, to do this exercise with particular leaders rather than whole sects. Some of the sects aren't well represented by a single dot. Consider the Awakened. In G1, Ellhrah is horrified if you use the Geneforge. Obviously, Tuldaric is more liberal with shaping power. Similarly, the Rebellion: the humanoid rebellion supports creation rights and (G4 implies) has at least a modicum of concern for preserving the world (i.e., restricting shaping power at least slightly). The drakon rebellion doesn't do either of these things as much. Edit: I suppose I would be somewhere around the Trakovites. [ Sunday, February 11, 2007 07:18: Message edited by: Hashi the Drug-Sniffing Canine ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 08:56
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I'm with the Trakovites. No self-shaping and creation's rights are the way I go. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 10:53
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I'm in the same quadrant as the Trakovites, but I think the Trakovites are wrong to ban shaping entirely. Both decisions should really be axes rather than simple one or the other decisions. Creations can have all the rights of a human, the rights of an animal, or the rights of a rock. You can support all shaping, support shaping but not reshaping, or support setting all shapers on fire. It's all a matter of degree. —Alorael, who thinks someone needs to make a Geneforgelitical Compass test. Bonus points if it has questions with no obvious relation to Genelitical beliefs. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 3442
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 11:10
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I'm in the Awakened sector, but artfully straddling the line between "supports self-shaping" and "opposes self-shaping". -------------------- And when you want to Live How do you start? Where do you go? Who do you need to know? Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 4574
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 11:13
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quote:Nice image. Now, I'd say I'm either Rebel scum, or Awakened. Wouldn't you know my first character on Geneforge IV: Rebellion was a Servile. However, I sympathize with the Trakovites,and I think they should have their own little territory. -------------------- Pass the sauerkraut and chips please. Posts: 1186 | Registered: Friday, June 18 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 15:55
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quote:I think I illustrated this as well as I possibly could have. Notice the Shapers are closer to supporting self-shaping than they are to supporting creation rights (they will work with shaped people to bring down the Rebellion), and then there are the Obeyers, who are closer to supporting creation rights than they are to supporting self-shaping (they want you to destroy the geneforge but still have the audacity to charge you money for their things). The degrees are there. One thing I didn't know how to put on the graph was 'against all kinds of shaping' which I just threw in with 'opposes self-shaping.' This graph also shows the important difference between a Barzite and a Tullegolite. A Barzite would sooner allow creations to have rights before giving up their ability to shape themselves, but Tullegolites would sooner become conservative shapers than allow rogues to run amok. [ Sunday, February 11, 2007 15:57: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 16:08
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Originally by Nikki: quote:Congratulations. The fluffy kittens are pleased once more. Dikiyoba is in the same sector as the Trakovites. Put Dikiyoba's dot just a little below Nikki's. [ Sunday, February 11, 2007 16:08: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5545
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 17:27
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I quite agree with Nikki and Dikiyoba. I am halfway between the Awakened and the Trakovites. I also support the concept of a test, though I'm not sure it would be possible to get a clear result without a few directly Geneforge based questions. Edit: Also, I agree with Alorael in regards to the method of graphing. It seems, given that we are dealing with two spectra, that a traditional X/Y graph might be an order. There could be some debate as to what the origin meant, and what the extremes were, but perhaps it would look something like this:  I figured that the top meant absolute, anything goes shaping, whereas the bottom was an absolute ban. The right was pro creation rights to the point of demaning compensation (Taker style), but I assumed that the origin would still be pretty mid range. Far left supported keeping creations as absolute slaves. Although the left/right dynamic seems a little skewed from a political perspective, it makes sense for a graph. (Also, I didn't know where to put the Trakovites for creation rights. They seem to support creation rights, but don't seem to have a plan for what to do with already shaped people/things. They're mispositioned, but the graph was only meant to be an example, anyway.) [ Monday, February 12, 2007 08:16: Message edited by: Cirion Actaeon ] -------------------- Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est. Posts: 344 | Registered: Friday, February 25 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 18:57
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I'd be in the northeast quadrant but near the center than any group. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 21:09
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Cirion, you need to change some things. The Takers are not against shaping, they were the first creations ever to be able to shape, even the original Sholai Takers were in favor of shaping themselves. Also, I'd say the Awakened would support creation rights more than the rebellion, since the Rebellion tends to treat lesser creations like crap, and the Awakened are all about equallity. The Trakovites are fine where they are, though. They must support creation rights a little, since they have creations as members, but not enough really to fight for them. Other than that, nice graph. Kind of generic-political-spectrumish and hard to read, but still nice. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 21:13
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While I agree that the Shapers actually limit shaping a great deal, I find it funny that even the Awakened, who are a middle of the road bunch, are more pro-shaping than Shapers. —Alorael, who thinks the series now needs another southwest faction for balance. No shaping but no creation rights either? Sounds like a job for the Scorched Earth Party! Maybe an easter egg faction wouldn't be so terrible... Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 21:44
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What, so you've only just figured out that the Awakened are hypocrites? They support creation rights, yet they have no problems with creating an army of drakons to die for them to defend their towns? At least the Trakovites are willing to die for their beliefs (and they shall), the Awakened would rather hide and murder anyone that defies them. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3220
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written Sunday, February 11 2007 22:30
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Spectrum, plural spectra, if you want to be rigorous about it. It's hard to say. I'm in favor of creation rights and as much self-shaping as your body can take before it disintegrates (or you go all crazy, Barzite-style). I guess I'm in between the Takers and the rebellion. Posts: 437 | Registered: Sunday, July 13 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 5545
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written Monday, February 12 2007 07:59
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Very well. Although I never intended it to be more than a sample, here's a newer version:  Edit: You'll find my opinion around (3,-2). [ Monday, February 12, 2007 08:15: Message edited by: Cirion Actaeon ] -------------------- Plaudite, amici, comedia finita est. Posts: 344 | Registered: Friday, February 25 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, February 12 2007 09:15
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This new chart looks very nice too. I still think having a single dot for each sect is an extremely poor way to represent the Awakened and the Rebellion. Also, there is no way the Shapers are as pro-shaping power as the Takers are. The Takers aligned with Trajkov, and were the origin of the Rebellion and its self-shaping Drakons. Maybe one dot is too little for the Shapers, but the strong Loyalist Shaper perspective is about where the Obeyers are, perhaps slightly less restrictive and slightly further from creation rights. Evaluating both spectra, the sects should probably go in an order something like this (IMHO): Shaping power (most to least restrictive): * Trakovites -- eliminate entirely * Obeyers (Rydell) -- restrict very strictly * Loyalists (Aodare) -- restrict very strictly * Shapers (Alwan) -- restrict strictly (halfway point) * Shapers (Zakary) -- restrict when necessary * Awakened (Ellhrah) -- restrict when necessary * Awakened (Tuldaric) -- unleash when necessary * Takers (Gnorrel) -- unleash when useful * Trajkov -- unleash with little regard for the world * Rebels (Greta, Litalia) -- unleash with little regard for the world * Barzites (Barzahl) -- unleash with little regard for the world * Rebels (Akhari Blaze) -- unleash with NO regard for the world Creation rights (least to most supportive): * Barzites (Barzahl) -- Shapers dominate creations with cruelty * Loyalists (Aodare) -- Shapers dominate creations * Shapers (Agatha) -- Shapers dominate creations * Shapers (Diwaniya) -- Shapers dominate and support creations * Obeyers (Rydell) -- Shapers dominate and support creations (halfway point) * Trakovites -- Peace and equality * Awakened (Ellhrah) -- Peace and equality * Trajkov -- Equality * Takers (Gnorrel) -- Freedom at any cost * Rebels (Greta, Litalia) -- Freedom at any cost, destroy Shapers * Rebels (Akhari Blaze) -- Drakons dominate (and support?) other creations, destroy Shapers I think the easiest way to handle this is to recognize creation rights as a continuum that is not a simple gradient between two extremes. Thus, Shaper domination, equality, creation power, and Drakon domination of everyone else are all different points. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3716
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written Monday, February 12 2007 10:26
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Even though they are a small sect, you forgot those of the Drayk circle!!! :) [ Monday, February 12, 2007 10:27: Message edited by: Marcelo ] -------------------- "Inspiration comes from hard work" -Charles Baudelaire. Posts: 292 | Registered: Sunday, November 23 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, February 12 2007 12:41
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Deformed drayks dominate everything and have all the rights, obviously. —Alorael, who wishes he had a circle worshipping him. Or even a square. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Monday, February 12 2007 13:05
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In the light of Slarty's multi-dots, Nalyd is a Shaper(Zakary) when it comes to Shaping, and a Shaper(Diwaniya) when it comes to creation rights. So, yes, a liberal Shaper. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Monday, February 12 2007 16:16
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I'm with Shapers, Alwan style. I believe that the Shapers methods and treatments are gauged towards gradual change for the better. They do it a little too slowly but it is better than the alternatives. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8099
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written Thursday, February 15 2007 15:41
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Im pro rebel all the way but i took greta with me on g3 and i killed her right away i killed every shaper in all the demo series. Posts: 19 | Registered: Thursday, February 15 2007 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Thursday, February 15 2007 22:51
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quote:Alorael: Worshipped by Squares. Something like that? -S- -------------------- A4 Items • A4 Singleton • G4 Items • G4 Forging • G4 Infiltrator • NR Items • The Lonely Celt Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Board Administrator
Member # 1
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written Thursday, February 15 2007 22:56
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Cool thread. I don't think self-shaping is enough of a moral/political issue to deserve its own axis. To me, the two biggest issues in Geneforge are: i. Creation rights. (Which was in the game from the get go.) ii. Whether the benefits of the practice of Shaping are enough to justify the dangers, both physical and moral. (This one really comes to the fore in Geneforge 4, but it was in my mind all along.) At this point, I am planning for Geneforge 5 to be the last game in the main story arc. At the end of it, you get to decide for good and all what happens. As for what I think is best? That would be telling. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7950
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written Thursday, February 15 2007 23:09
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quote:So Geneforge 6(yes, i`m speaking about distant future) might take place in another continent or after/before many years and be more like a sidestory? Posts: 13 | Registered: Wednesday, January 24 2007 08:00 |