Geneforge Political Spectrum
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 23:47
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The Shapers reject canisters because, first of all, they have adverse psychological effects, and second of all, they are not earned. With canisters, anyone, anyone, can gain any power. A six year old could cast Acid Rain, or create a Kyshakk. Worse yet, a complete outsider, unaware of any kind of Shaping could use one by accident, and the power could unleash itself randomly, simply because the user lack the control or discipline to control it. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 00:31
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Who says they're not earned? If you're going to devote the time and resources of your faction to make canisters, you're not just going to give them to any idiot unless you're insane like Barzahl. If the Shapers legalized canisters, they would still control their distribution, probably being even more anal about it than they are about regular shaping. It can only improve their situation. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 02:34
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They aren't earned, in the sense that you did not learn them. Instead, you took an extremely expensive shortcut. The expense going into canisters far outweighs the benefits, which are the same as learning the spell, with some ego, addiction, and anger thrown in. Kind of like steroids. Plus, you can never rule out the possibility of some random ignoramus stumbling over a canister and learning, oh, say. . . Charm. [ Sunday, March 11, 2007 02:44: Message edited by: The Strange Doctor ] -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8285
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 06:58
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I see a lot of anty rebel in this. Key point is that canstirs shouldn't be used by either side. If they weren't nessisary to my survival I'd never had used them. I think of Litilia as a role model. She used tons of canastirs and became very powerful, but she retained her humanity. The thing about drackons being too powerful is not neccisarly true. The rebel ending talks about you becomeing a powerful figure in the rebellion. By the ending of the war you should be so powerful that you can crush Ghaldring with a single fire bolt. The Shapers deserve to die. They have commited numerious atriocitys! In my opinion this reminds me of Iraq. Evil leaders that keep order but with great cost. Idiot super power stumbles in and blows up everything. Only the rebellion had good intentions and Bush didn't. -------------------- A duke is just a duke but you see, I am "The Duke" Posts: 65 | Registered: Saturday, March 10 2007 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 08:45
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Learning everything you know by canister seems like it could be a problem. You don't get all the lessons in when and why to do things along with how to do them. On the other hand, I just can't see the downside to giving people, say, greater intelligence through canisters. That's supposing canisters didn't make their users psychotic, anyway. —Alorael, who is unaware of these "numerous atrocities" committed by the Shapers. This might be because he hasn't played most of the Geneforge games, but it seems like their major crimes are complete control and limiting access to shaping. It's not as though they routinely slaughter their own citizens. Life under the Shapers in fact seems rather prosperous and happy. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 09:00
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One can earn canisters through merit. Who cares that the spell is not learned? It becomes a part of you, which is far superior than just learning it the old fashioned way. As for the random person stumbling upon a canister, well, if the Shapers can not deal with one of these every now and then, their regime doesn't deserve to exist. Litalia maintaining her humanity is a myth. Have you talked to her? She is so arrogant she forgets you're in the room with her half the time. She can control her outbursts of anger but hey, so could Barzahl, and he was quite mad. And Kernio, do you think the Rebels are free from guilt in this war? The Shapers merely want to restore order. When they take a town, such as Valeya, they protect it and the people in it. The Rebellion burns cities to the ground, releasing rogues into the wild, caring not for the inhabitants of the land. The Shapers are slightly fascist, but who isn't when your way of life is under attack and you're dealing with murderous scum? The Rebellion conducts war through chaos, causing more destruction and death in a few months than the Shapers have in their entire history. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8285
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 13:59
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Obviously you are not in tune with the Shapers. They have commited genocide in the past and will again. Dryaks aren't the first creation ever barred you know. Also, how much blood do you think was shed with the Shapers took control of the WORLD??? They didn't just say,"Hey you mind letting me and my buddies rule your lives? Chee thanks." While the Rebel's methods may be dubbed as cruel they are neccisary. And you obviously haven't been in the same room as Shaftoe or Eliza. The Shapers care only about hoarding their power and they only use it when they see fit. The Rebels are acting in the best interests of the world. The time of burning has come! The Shaper's tyranny shall end!! -------------------- A duke is just a duke but you see, I am "The Duke" Posts: 65 | Registered: Saturday, March 10 2007 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 15:00
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Not really the drakons are far worse then the shapers were. They see them selfs as ruleing the world talking to any drayk, servile, any seintient no drakon creature, that lives in driect contact with drakons. Shapers are trying to restore order, In the rebillion all I see is greedy tempts for power, political struggles, and madness. Do you honestly think they will stop with the Unbound. When ever the shapers created something like that it was by accident and they always try to quartine it or destroy it. The Drakons are determine to either rule the whole of earth or destroy it. Guess what made idea they will come up with next -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8285
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 15:07
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The drackons sending out the Unbound let the human forces regroup. We want to live in the world too. The human part of the rebellion will not let the drackons destroy the world. Also the drackons are far too arogent. In the rebel ending it says the drackons get ever more arrogant, but it also says you get realy powerful! So if drackons go over board we WILL hold them in check. After the Shapers are destroyed we will hunt down every last rogue!! Shapers quarintine leaving the people within the area to be butchered but we will save every life we can. Still winning is most important. -------------------- A duke is just a duke but you see, I am "The Duke" Posts: 65 | Registered: Saturday, March 10 2007 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 16:20
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There is no evidence of Shaper cruelty from before the Rebellion. They treated creations as inferior, sure, but they still fed and cared for them. There is no evidence of them having genocided other species, either. However, if they did, there was probably good reason. Similar to how we find it perfectly fine to genocide various species of virus and bacteria whenever we get the chance. You should be happy to have the Shapers as the dominant power in the world. They protect people and send creations into battle so humans don't have to die instead. They give people serviles to work for them, ornks to eat, and even simple things like tools. They're not even that tyranical; mayors are almost always non-shapers. Eliza and Shaftoe were fighting on the front, not to mention they were permanently made part of a stationary machine. I would expect them to be a little grumpy considering their situation. As for the Rebellion, they care not for the lives of civilians. You would be hard pressed to find rebels that even care about their fellow soldiers. The drakons let Southforge fall. They burn cities, ravage farmland... they are everything that people hate about war. quote:First, the rebellion will not stand a chance without the drakons leading them. If they did win the war, they would not be able to throw of their reins. Second, all rebel creations are rogues, will you kill the serviles as well? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8285
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 17:37
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quote:First, the rebellion will not stand a chance without the drakons leading them. If they did win the war, they would not be able to throw of their reins. Second, all rebel creations are rogues, will you kill the serviles as well?[/b][/QUOTE] :mad: Several problems here. First the drackons did not let Southforge fall. Southforge was surrounded and there're was no way the drackons could reach it in time. Second about rebels hardly caring if their fellows died. Where did you hear that? Look at Khur for example. Never forgave himself. You call that hardly caring. Third about shapers using creations instead of humans thats also not true. It cleary states in the game that Shaper armys are always a mix of creation and human. Fourth, there is evidence of Shaper cruelty before the Rebellion. Remeber Sucia Island. Many serviles there were inteligent and loyal yet they were all exterminated! :mad: How can you say that the Shapers did nothing bad. I admit that the Rebellion isn't perfect but its kinks can be worked out after the Shapers are gone. Pluss the Drackons aren't the leaders of the Rebellion. They lead the creation side only! The human leader is Litlia. Also the rebel creations aren't rogues. Rogues attack everything in sight. Finnaly I must say that what we create is OUR responsibilty! How can you in good consence say that servile are not intitled to any rights? The Shaper system is flawed! :mad: -------------------- A duke is just a duke but you see, I am "The Duke" Posts: 65 | Registered: Saturday, March 10 2007 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 19:01
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Not all the Sucia Island serviles were killed. It says in the endings that the loyalist ones were taken back to safety. As for the rest, they had to be killed, they were rogues. As for Shaper armies, they probably include more humans now because the Rebellion has been ruthlessly murdering the shapers themselves. Litalia is a drakon lapdog. She is Akhari Blaze's servant. The drakons only let her call herself the human leader so that they don't have to deal with the humans themselves because they don't like them. The Rebellion says it supports creation rights but how come drakons treat all other creations below them like crap? You say a rogue is something that attacks everything in sight? Well, there aren't any rogues that attack their own kind, right? Serviles don't attack their own kind, but they will attack humans that they don't like. That sounds like a rogue to me. For the record, I do not support either side, they are both weak in supporting what they believe in. The rebellion is weak because it is led by creations, and the Shapers are weak because they ally with rogue agents and refuse to take shaping to the next level. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, March 11 2007 19:45
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Originally by Emperor Tullegolar: quote:That is the G1 ending, but is that the ending that brought us to G4? I don't think so. Too many Obeyers were in with the Awakened in G2. I think most were killed along with most Awakened and Takers. It would have been interesting to keep them around, though. Instead of having to invent Kiki and the rest of her breed, the Shapers could just use Obeyer serviles. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7764
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written Monday, March 12 2007 07:50
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quote:The Drayks,Drakons,Gazers and Freeborn Serviles might disagree with you there quote:Yeah,the reason being they won't submit to shaper rule or (for creations) are having independant thoughts. Shaper 1:A group of serviles are having independant thoughts! Shaper 2:We better kill them then! *shapers go to serviles and blast them to bits with spells* quote:So they can't care for creations too much! quote:Ornks and tools are ok but they can't care for serviles that much if they make serviles work for others (and the shapers didn't seem to care about Master Thell overworking his serviles.) quote:Oh really?*points to the cages in Dillame and then to the dead servile at the bottom of the (whipping?) post in Valeya Ruins* [ Monday, March 12, 2007 07:51: Message edited by: Tarrasque ] -------------------- I have a karma of 2!Yay! Posts: 60 | Registered: Monday, December 11 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, March 12 2007 08:57
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Seviles like working for their masters. Just ask any non-tainted one. When given the chance to live in the wild, they will often have difficulty living on their own, and yearn for the safe loving arms of their masters. The ones that succeed away from shaper care often end up crazy and/or violent. The cages were only made necessary by war. They wouldn't need them if it weren't for the traitors looking to undermine peace and order. As for drayks and freeborn serviles, they are all rogues. They have natural violent tendancies, they kill innocents and even fight amongst each other. They were given the chance to live on their own on Sucia Island, and what did they do? They formed factions and started attacking each other! They are barely capable of reason, they are greedy, they are hostile, they must either submit or be killed simply to protect the innocent in the world. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Monday, March 12 2007 09:58
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quote:The Drakons and the Gazers fired the first shot. They can't blame the Shapers for retaliating. Frankly, each of the above is intelligent enough to comprehend the consequences to their own actions. Doing something as large as the rebellion, it's foolish to think that there wouldn't be repercussions from their rash actions. quote:Ironically, the blame for this lies with the rebels. If they hadn't decided to start butchering people when they did, Thell would probably have been taken care of a long time ago. -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7764
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written Monday, March 12 2007 10:10
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quote:Ok you're right there quote:True in the case of the Circle of the Drayk but the rebellion ones are only violent because they believe the shapers will just break them down into essence if they capture them (which they probably would) quote:For serviles there are a few like that I will admit (Sandia and the Circle of the drayk) As for drayks there are some exceptions.Shorass and Wyx (From GF2) didn't exactly go around declaring war on others did they? quote:Humans have split into factions (Such as the Rebels and the Shapers) and we attack each other,Are we really any better? quote:True for some but there have been/are exceptions (Pirik,Magda and Learned Pinner from GF2) [ Monday, March 12, 2007 10:11: Message edited by: Tarrasque ] -------------------- I have a karma of 2!Yay! Posts: 60 | Registered: Monday, December 11 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, March 12 2007 11:15
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quote:No human would have ever even thought about rebelling against the Shapers until the drakons came along and messed everything up. The Shapers stand for peace and order. The rebels are using chaos and destruction as a way of getting what they want. The question is, what do they want? Equal right for creations? The drakons are anything but equal to the other creations in the Rebellion. Are they fighting to survive? They probably could have lived perfectly happy, reclusive lives if they chose to hide away from Shaper civilization. But no, Ghaldring decided to go on the offensive. He is fighting a war of aggression for land and power, yet he has tricked suckers like you guys into thinking he fights for equality and against Shaper tyranny, when really he just wants to be a tyrant himself. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Monday, March 12 2007 11:32
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The ideal setup would be: Intelligent creations such as the Drakons, Drayks, Gazers, etc. having equal rights if they wish it. They still must live semi-subservient to the Shapers, and nobody will hesitate to destroy them at the first sign of hostility. They will live in a specially formed territory, and allowed to die out. Shaping should be volunteer only. All who wish to join, can, but they undergo rigorous psychological and physical tests to be admitted. Serviles who are not Shaped are allowed to join the other independent creations in their pseudo-freedom. All creations deemed by the Shaper Council to be safe continue to be created, but Serviles are shaped only with complete obedience. The Trakovites are exterminated. Naturally. Mind you, this is simply the arrangement that would appear to be the best accepted by all sides, without undue bloodshed. It is not the best or most secure. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8285
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written Monday, March 12 2007 14:30
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Ok nothings perfect. I'd like to point out again the point of the Shapers taking over the world. How do you think the world became the Shapers. Also think of all the...I got to go. Anyway no one is perfect. -------------------- A duke is just a duke but you see, I am "The Duke" Posts: 65 | Registered: Saturday, March 10 2007 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Monday, March 12 2007 15:20
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And how do you think the world might become entirely Rebellion? Diplomacy? Drakons? Not gonna happen. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Monday, March 12 2007 16:24
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Originally by Emperor Tullegolar: quote:And who created the drakons, hmm? A human named Barzahl. Slipping creations and items off of Sucia Island was the beginning of the rebellion. And the fact that the rebellion found so many followers so quickly means that there was plenty of rebellious thought, there was just no way to act on it. quote:Where would they live, and for how long could they live there before they were discovered? Shaper civilization is expanding. They'd have to compete for living space in the most inhospitable places against other escaped creations, bandits, and humans who don't like Shapers, always afraid of being discovered and killed. Can you imagine how hard it would be to grow food, or how often you'd have to defend youself, or how difficult it would be to find a mate, or how many children wouldn't survive to adulthood? Not exactly an inviting proposition. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Monday, March 12 2007 16:42
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What is stopping them from simply living under Shaper rule? Apparently, it isn't overly oppressive to the average citizen, other than reduced prices for Shapers. The only thing worth complaining about is the restriction of magic. As for the creations, there's plenty of unexplored terrain, especially on Terrestria. You can always pick an area to defend, provided that it's far away enough from any towns. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8285
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written Monday, March 12 2007 17:08
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Anyone remember Geneforge 2? Thats exactly what they did. -------------------- A duke is just a duke but you see, I am "The Duke" Posts: 65 | Registered: Saturday, March 10 2007 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Monday, March 12 2007 17:19
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And, they would have been fine if they wren't inherently violent and terraforming the land carelessly. If Barzahl hadn't smuggled canisters off of Sucia, then he wouldn't have gone insane, he wouldn't have broken away from the Shapers, the Takers wouldn't have broken away from him, the Drakons would have remained drayks, and nothing would have happened! So you can blame him, or Zakary at least, for not taking appropriate action. That's where your precious Rebellion has it's roots: a recklessly power-hungry egomaniac. Worse yet, Tully likes him. [ Monday, March 12, 2007 17:19: Message edited by: The Strange Doctor ] -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |