Geneforge Political Spectrum
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 12:14
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It's not the Trakovites' lack of power that makes them an ineffective faction. It's their insistence on the inherent evil of shaping. Shaping has done too much good as is just too potentially useful to be abandoned because it can be a weapon. Murdering all shapers doesn't make Trakovites any more endearing. The Rebellion has its heart in the right place and its effects in all the wrong places. While I don't agree with hard-liner Shaper policies, I think the Shapers are the group with the level of organization and discipline that would allow them to change their position to one that handles shaping fairly and responsibly. Eventually they could be brought around to creations' rights without scorched earth warfare to accomplish it. —Alorael, who thinks the world of Geneforge really just needs a Shaper with the right ideas and the brains to keep his mouth shut on them until he has enough power to start swaying other Shapers to his point of view. Change from within would be much more efficient and much less bloody. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2245
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 16:54
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If the Trakovites had some effective means of fighting the Shapers (eg. Powerful magic?), I might be tempted to side with them. However, I think it's crystal clear that one would be unable to defeat the Shapers without taking advantage of the Shaping craft. So I tend to side with the Rebellion. -------------------- VIVE LA TAKERS! VIVE LA REBELLION! VIVE LA GHALDRING! Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 17:01
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Is it moral for a Trakovite to unleash any kind of destruction on his enemies? Isn't the whole point of being one of them to not destroy things? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 17:20
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Considering that the first thing they ask you to do is destroy something (a canister, which I happily used instead), I'd say no. In fact, I think I smell a little bit of a Drakon conspiracy here. After all, what better way to turn the odds in your favor than to destroy all shaping, then pull a little bit of hidden shaping knowledge out from behind your back and use it to gain power over all lands, known and unknown. Pretty convenient, no? -------------------- Scenarios need reviews! Please rate these scenarios at the CSR after playing them! Amnesia • Dilecia • The Empire's New Grove • Express Delivery Twilight Valley • Witch Hunt • Where the Rivers Meet • Foul Hordes Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 17:46
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Let us look at the Trakovites we know. Drew lives his life on the line trying to stop shaping. He wouldn't put so much at risk unless he really believed in what he was doing. The Drayk wouldn't be able to shape, and therefore wouldn't be part of the conspiracy. Khryk could have easily joined the Rebels and become very powerful. He chose not to, although they would love to have him because of his power. Doesn't look like much of a backstabbing group does it. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 17:53
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Mind you, Khyryk isn't a real Trakovite (by his own admission), and he will shape creations to defend himself if you attack him. [ Tuesday, February 20, 2007 17:54: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5754
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written Tuesday, February 20 2007 17:58
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There are only 2 real trakovites in the game, yes, but since he pretty much completely aggrees with them, he gets to count as one. Also, at the beginning the Trakos will only get rid of the worst of the shaping, which pretty much means the Rebels and the Shapers. Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 19:50
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quote:The Nazis believed in what they were doing. quote:They want to end shaping, and to do so, they will have to kill all those responsible, to do that, they will have to get people on their side by promising to bring justice to those who started the war. First the Shapers, then the Rebels, then the soldiers who supported either side, then rogue creations, then creations, is there no end to who they could blame for the war's attrocities? If these extremists win, there will be no end to the persecutions. No end to the calls for blood. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 20:46
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The Rebels want to kill all the Shapers and their collaborators. Then the drakons will take over and rule over their Rebel "allies." We already can see in Khima-Uss how the drakons will run things. The Shapers aren't much better with kill the Rebels and their collaborators. They define collaborators much more widely as seen by what happens in Dillame. In order to prevent this from ever happening again the serviles will be created with a willingness to die for the Shapers even though they know this is happening to them. Once everything is back to normal this incident will be hidden away like a barred island even if it means massive executions of all neutral witnesses. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 21:01
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Is it necessarily wrong to create serviles who are willing and eager to die for the Shapers? Assuming they are functional, happy, and incidentally altruistic in a very focused way, what makes their existence evil? —Alorael, who thinks anything that's good enough for the Restaurant at the End of the Universe is good enough for him. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 21:13
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quote:Worst plan ever. If the Shapers are smart, they will want to keep the war fresh in everyone's minds for the rest of time. After all, why would they want to erase their greatest triumph ever from history? Especially the rebel attrocities, they will want people to remember those so that they will support the Shaper regime, lest such things ever happen again. The problem with the old Shaper regime was that there was not enough fear to keep the people from rebelling. This war, if they win it, will be a blessing in disguise. The Tullgolites would offer amnesty (and canisters) to any shaper that pledges allegiance to the empire. Trakovites will be given a chance to renounce their beliefs (and maybe wear a brand) else be executed for treason. Drakons will all have to die, however, their creation will not be barred, so I think we just barely escape being labeled as genocidal. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7276
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 21:36
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I disagree completely with Jeff (and on this, if nothing else, actually agree with ET): self shaping is one of the major issues of the game, maybe the central moral issue. If you look to the future. As long as the decisionmakers are human, there is hope for the future, for moral progress (there's a new movie out about William Wilberforce; look him up to see what I mean). When the decisions are made by glowy egotists, there is none. "In peace, prepare for war; in war, prepare for peace." Put me somewhere southwest of the Trakovites - my utter, utter, utter opposition to self-shaping is tempered by a willingness to make creatures, provided the creatures aren't so intelligent that I'd feel sorry for them at reabsorption. The Shaper idea of a Banned Creation List seems right to me. I'd put Serviles on it. Posts: 63 | Registered: Tuesday, July 4 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 22:04
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The Shapers will want the idea of the Geneforge and canisters gone forever. No one should know that there is any way but under Shaper control to learn shaping and even magic. The idea that a Rebellion almost succeeded will only encourage others to try and learn from the mistakes. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, February 25 2007 23:14
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Well, according to the Shaper ending of G4, the Shapers do in fact choose to keep the details of the rebellion public as a reminder to future generations of the need to keep Shaping under strict control. It's implied that this is a break from their normal strategy of hushing up rebellions. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7557
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written Monday, February 26 2007 09:53
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My stand. Self-Shaping: To be exterminated Creation Rights: Freedom for drakes and Gazers, Drakons to be free except biased and power-hungry ones (Think of Mortrax and Koth here) Nija Halcyon, the peace-loving and awsomely powerful shaper, ruler of Delliame. -------------------- The force is with ME! I'm not so sure about YOU! Trust me, you do not want to click this link Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Monday, February 26 2007 13:05
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Drakons and Gazers must be exterminated. They are too egotistical and power-hungry to be trusted with life. They would never rest until the Shapers were dead or enslaved. Thankfully, they are utterly inferior to Shaper ingenuity. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, February 26 2007 13:09
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My experience with gazers is limited to A4, but they seem less hostile than drakons. They're mostly very, very different from humans. I don't think humans and gazers would ever get along very well, but they could live happily apart much better than humans and drakons. —Alorael, who is a bit confused. Motrax and Khoth aren't drakons, they're dragons. They're also neither power-hungry no biased, but if they're supposed to be examples of good dragons then Athron is fine too. And honestly, power-hungriness is no moral justification for extermination. The Shapers are, after all, astoundingly dedicated to the accumulation of power and authority, and Sulfras wants power without really being much of a problem for anyone until the Empire made the unfortunate decision to imprison her. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Monday, February 26 2007 13:32
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This could just be a cultural misunderstanding, but gazers seem a bit more crazy than drakons. Drakons are just power hungry and greedy, gazers seem almost sadistic. In Geneforge 4 as well as the others, there is always at least one gazer that claims a single zone and enslaves any nearby creations with its mind. They serve no faction; sometimes they claim they just want to be left alone, sometimes they claim it is their goal to conquor the world. One constant is that you always end up wanting to destroy them due to their hostility and insanity. If there were more of them and they worked together, they could become a greater threat than drakons. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Monday, February 26 2007 16:16
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I think we've had the eyebeast/gazer debate before. I thought that overall, people thought Drakons would kill the gazers. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 8285
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 20:44
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Hi don't mind if I make a post do you? quote:There is a problem with this. That being that the Shapers have been in control for hundreds and hundreds of years (I think) and they still haven't changed their ways. They are very good and snuffing out independince and thats why its foolhardy to believe they'd ever change. I belive the rebellion is completely in the right. It is regretable that so many must die but if not now then we shall never be free from under the heel of the shapers. As to matters of drackon control...The drackons shall be crushed if they EVER attempt to take the place of the shapers. -------------------- A duke is just a duke but you see, I am "The Duke" Posts: 65 | Registered: Saturday, March 10 2007 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 21:05
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Eh, you made a good point, so necromancy forgiven. The Shapers are already shown as making concessions in the way of acceptance and independence. They accept you as an agent, despite you being Geneforge-warped, or even a Servile. If you do some quests for the Rebels, the Shapers won't attack you on sight. Admittedly, there aren't any annoying infinite-spawn no-option-but-to-attack Rebel forts, but that is strictly explained as border control. The Rebels are partly in the right. Creations do need to be treated at least marginally better. The art of Shaping needs to be advanced at a far faster rate, and that is only possible by recruiting more Shapers, and being more liberal with the power of Shaping. The problem with the Rebels is that they took it too far. The canisters allow anyone to gain the power of Shaping without earning it through the effort and discipline that guarantee that they will not misuse it. They wish complete and utter freedom for creations, which would equate to an army of rogues surrounding you on all sides, with your leaders forbidding oyu from defending yourself. The Trakovites are afraid and weak. They are jealous of the power of the Shapers, and too fearful to become Rebels. They see what has become of their lives and lands because of the misuse of Shaping, but they are unable to realize that it is misuse. This post was sponsored by late-night adrenaline and Comedy Central. [ Saturday, March 10, 2007 21:06: Message edited by: The Strange Doctor ] -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 21:49
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I think the Shapers have already lost to the Rebellion on principle. The Rebellion is fighting for creation rights, they want creations to be treated like normal people. If the Shapers were true to their beliefs, they wouldn't allow you (assuming you play as a servile) to help them. They abandoned their way of life when the going got tough, and that is an important Rebel victory. On the flip side, the Rebellion has lost to the Shapers as well. They were for creations rights, but their system has degenerated into the drakons ruling over the other creations with an iron fist. Both sides are in the wrong, fighting for causes that no longer exist. Everyone is drifting towards the center of the spectrum. I hope in the next game, Jeff has all sides revert to reactionary policies. Edit: Or Tullegolites. [ Saturday, March 10, 2007 21:53: Message edited by: Emperor Tullegolar ] -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 21:57
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ET, you missed the point. The Shapers were wrong. They needed to make that concession to the Rebels. It was an important turning point that changed them from the rigid and inflexible empire to a flexible one, with a greater hope of victory. They admitted they were wrong, and even if they maintain an enormous contempt for the warped Rebels, they recognize that they, too can be used. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 22:14
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You missed the point of the Trakovites. They recognize that shaping can be misused. That is why they want to eliminate it after see that centuries of Shaper control hasn't led to a way of preventing misuse. If the Shapers had been better at controlling their power instead of kill and deny it happened, then the Rebellion would never have happened. The Rebellion frightens the Trakovite since it appears that the Drakons are out of control. They are the other extreme of too much freedom to shape and no care about the consequences. The Trakovites would probably be closer to the Rebels if the Drakon faction wasn't there and especially not in control. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, March 10 2007 23:06
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You missed the point of the Tullegolites. If the Shapers really wanted to protect the world from creation scum, then rather than ally with them, they would become more lax on their shaping restrictions. Instead of training more shapers to fill their thining ranks, and use canisters to augment their powers, they choose to ally with rogue lifecrafters. But the rebels are just as bad. The drakons scum are like the Shapers in almost every way. Both sides are full of hypocrisy. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |