Avernum 5 Early, Early Notes
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 08:20
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Come to think of it, I much preferred the A1-3 saving/loading system, and I also much preferred the A1-3 movement. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7745
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 09:00
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Actually after playing A1 today movement isn't too bad.. I can't remember A4 load/save system. But basically A1 > A3 > A2 > A4 I didn't like the Vahnhati anyways... But please keep A1 Map with roaming monsters and A1 revival system... those are most important. How about new graphics too, i know A4 was an improvement but it's been almost 5 games with little difference... Posts: 59 | Registered: Thursday, December 7 2006 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 11:05
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I like being able to click where I want to go. It allowed me to travel across the map at record speeds, since it navigates you aroung obstacles automatically. I love that. I can't imagine traversing a forest or swamp without that ability, even though I did it all the time in the older Avernums. I would really miss it if it were gone now. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 11:05
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quote:Hear hear! I think we're the minority, though. quote:[/b] In A1-A3 I reloaded whenever anyone died. In A4 I actually dealt with the problem I think A4 wins there. quote:[/b] Amen. quote:[/b] Jeff has already said he won't. They're meant to be mysterious and powerful, not playable. I don't really think the vahnatai match the other three races well enough to work anyway. quote:[/b] As long as we can move tile by tile with the keyboard, I'm happy. quote:[/b] How about saving and loading individual files instead of Geneforge/A4-style save slots? I thought that was a step back. quote:[/b] Remove irritating combat grinds. But not chitrachs, because they actually make sense except for being in one of the more densely populated and civilized areas of Avernum. —Alorael, who thinks roaming monsters are okay but not essential in all outdoor sections. Roaming and appearing bands of monsters as in the Exiles would be nice, though. Sometimes you shouldn't be able to kill one monster, leave, and come back to very slowly clear an area. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 11:28
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quote:I actually liked that there were almost no repawnable monsters. I made me feel like I could, you know, complete the game... completely. In one game where I successfully picked up every item in the entire world, the only flaw in my plan was those respawning slimes that sometimes dropped bones or trash. This is probably just the OCD part of me talking. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 11:43
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Dikiyoba very much prefers non-respawnable monsters as well. It's about realism as much as it about completeness. Random encounters make sense, respawning dungeons don't. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 12:49
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It's the non-respawning that never made sense to me. If you've killed all the nephilim in the fort, then there aren't suddenly going to be more. Fine. But if you run in, kill the guards by the gate and maybe depopulate a barracks, then flee to buy some more potions, wouldn't the nephilim post more guards? —Alorael, who at least knows how the Empire is so successful in its genocidal policies. They just tell adventurers that it's a quest and have them go at it. They go at it very thoroughly, apparently. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 12:55
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Maybe have some of the more "Optional" forts restock themselves with generic bandits every 5000 turns or so. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 18:13
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A slow rate of restocking makes sense. It means that you have to hold something back in reserve when going through a "cleared" area in case you get attacked. In Avernum 4, I could wander through a cleared route with 1 health and fear nothing usually. I like the older game save system because you can place all your saved games in one place and not have to shift them for updated versions. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 19:15
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quote:That is what we in the industry call a royal pain in the backside. Clearing out a bandit lair and getting killed by a random nephil on the way back to town is neither dramatic nor fun. Nor is having to clear out that same lair again every time you want to go through it. I'm in favour of atomic dungeons; you do everything in one sweep, then it's done and stays done. [ Sunday, February 04, 2007 19:18: Message edited by: Cryptozoology ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8016
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 19:35
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I dunno, I think it would be cool if there was a new race..cant think of anything specific, maybe something thats resistant to cold..maybe another hairy monster like the nephilim? :P [ Sunday, February 04, 2007 19:46: Message edited by: NineInch ] Posts: 29 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 19:43
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There is one feature that the GF/Avernum 4 save game dialog desperately needs. A way to delete more than one character of the save description at a time. Or, at a bare minimum, the ability to hold down delete instead of having to press it once discretely for each character. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 21:00
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It really should just be a standard save without slots. Call the file whatever you want and put it wherever you want. New races don't add much to a system that ignores race as much as Avernum, and there aren't any more races that make any sense. That goes for both PC races and NPC-only races. I agree that getting killed by that absurdly spawned lone guy with a sword is no fun, and the nuke and loot approach to dungeoneering is wonderful. Making dungeons gain more defenders if you leave would encourage that style of grand butchery rather than picking off monsters one by one. —Alorael, who acknowledges that it would in fact encourage compulsive picking off of the same monster over and over until it no longer gave any experience. And that's fine too; it promotes a variety of gaming styles! Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 21:49
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I'd honestly like to see humans get some sort of actual bonus... given how often people have proven the total superiority of nephil and slith PCs. And while nephils and sliths are definitely more of a known entity by the time A4's plot gets rolling, there was basically no difference in how NPCs treats a party with them as opposed to one without them. And I agree with Alo about the save files. I'm guessing that it's mostly an issue with how the engine itself is coded, though... so I'm more than happy to leave it to JV. -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 21:56
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quote:I'm inclined to agree, although I didn't exactly mean "atomic" in that sense of the word. :P -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Sunday, February 4 2007 22:13
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Exile, with its ever respawning dungeons, encouraged going in and killing everything in one trip. The only reasons to go back was for easy experience or you missed getting an item. Avernum made it possible for hit and run raids where you kill a little bit every time unless you were forced into a route with no retreat. Avernum 4 meant you didn't lose the loot after a battle outdoors anymore. If someone died the only problem was you couldn't get to their items until they came back. No more hard choices about reloading from a really difficult fight. No more picking up their pile of items either. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, February 5 2007 12:05
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You mean I've been misunderstanding what nuclear families are about for all these years? Whoops. —Alorael, who has some apology cards to write. And his mother said he never wrote! Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8016
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written Monday, February 5 2007 16:18
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Ugh I think i should finish Avernum 3 and 4 before reading these post..I just ruined so many part of the games :eek: Posts: 29 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8027
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 13:15
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I have to agree - I too miss the outdoors (and the secret passages; my groups were professional headbangers, no wall left untouched) But mainly I miss the outdoors. Exile / Avernum had this grande feeling. With the new system we still move several "screens" between the settlements but instead of a location being a tiny fraction of a screen (being enlarged after entering) it now takes up a whole screen (or more). Which lets the distances shrink to nothing. The movement time (in reality) has remained the same, but going to the next city should be a farer than just walking through a couple of city lengths of wilderness... Posts: 5 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 14:13
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quote:Or, in some cases, no city lengths of wilderness. I wasn't really that attached to the outdoors screen. I realled liked the seamlessness in Avernum 4. The only problem was that since the world had been designed with the outdoors system in mind, some cities were too close together for the seamless world to work. That shouldn't be a problem if most of Avernum 5 takes place in new caves. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Board Administrator
Member # 1
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 14:44
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Some more notes on Avernum 5. i. Heights are in. I just got the first set of hill graphics. ii. The world system (i.e. one seamless world) will, however, remain unchanged. Though Avernum 5's terrain is designed to better take advantage of it. I am, however, going to work on the graphics to try to create a clearer visual distinction between outdoors and dungeons. iii. I was very, VERY happy with how death worked in Avernum 4. No changes. iv. Dungeons will respawn monsters more. Outdoors, about the same rate. v. The plot for Avernum V is very intricate and involved. I think it's quite cool, and I'm kind of looking forward to writing it. vi. Work on more PC icons has started. There will be 2 more each of nephil, slith, and human, at least, and we'll work from there. vii. Many improvements from Geneforge 4 will be in the game. Nicer fonts. Better AP system. Better graphics and spell effects. I will mercilessly purge all actual Geneforge elements, though. (No spawners. No pylons. Period. I will, however, keep the roamer icon as a clawbug, though, because I think it looks cool.) viii. I plan to include full keyboard support. You'll be able to target and do talking with the keyboard. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 15:30
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Excellent. One thing that bothered Nalyd was the fact that there were more human PC graphics than of the other races. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 6670
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 15:40
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Yes! Especially happy about 1, 5, and 8; probably 7 as well after I try the G4 demo. The only thing the seamless world is missing is continuous loading of nearby sectors. I don't remember what the term is; it's not the frustrum, but the loading of the area outside of the player's view. Be a lot harder to implement, though. --------------------  Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 15:54
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Most of those things sound good, although I'll have to see ii and iv in action before I pass judgment on those. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Tuesday, February 6 2007 19:44
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Sounds good but I want to see how it works. Could you have more contrast between monsters and floor color. Black rats on almost black dungeon floor is hard to see without repeated use of the tab key when they are partially concealed by a nearby wall. In Avernum 4 the worst area was the lower level of the Haunted Mine north of Fort Draco. I found the two bodies by accident and always had trouble with at least one rat. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |